rivets

[hogun]

Just a general question .
What size rivets would you recommend for putting together a 14 gauge spangen helm.
Is there a minimum diameter they need to be for S.C.A. legal combat?

And along the same lines, for 16 gauge articulated knees, what diameter rivets work well?

[Sevastian]

I'd use 3/16ths shaft diameter for the spangen top. You can use 1/8 but you'd need roughly twice as many. Steel or brass rivets would work. 3/16ths for articulated joints for durability.

[Konstantin the Red]

What size rivets would you recommend for putting together a 14 gauge spangen helm?
Is there a minimum diameter they need to be for S.C.A. legal combat?

Nope, the rules are just written with a maximum spacing -- 2.5 inches, for 3/16" rivets incidentally. In helms I'd rather not nudge up against the max spacing. 3/16 rivets are very stout of course and will do a fine job. In rivets and in bolts, it's a rule of thumb that many small ones make a stronger joint than fewer, larger ones. With rivets, all you need is enough cross section of rivet holding the metal plates together to get the job done. Anything in the range of 1/8" diameter to 3/16 or even a full quarter inch would do. (Bigger than that and we'd be talking visor pivots for hounskull bascinets, and that's a specialized use.) What Sevastian said about twice as many is a good enough rule. Now think: two 3/16 rivets somewhere give 3/8" of rivet shank diameter holding something together, right? -- and now, four 1/8" rivets instead of two bigger ones. That adds up to 1/2" of rivet diameter holding that bit together, doesn't it? So, yeah, double 'em up, or rather more than double. It means more drilling, or alternatively easier punching per hole, but you won't have to put as much effort into each rivet, and for sure you've nothing to fear on account of the spacing! Easier punching per hole might become critical if you are working close to the limit of the punch (R-W No.5 Jr delivers 1.2 tons, which copes with 14ga mild if the hole isn't too big) in terms of metal thickness -- takes more tonnage to drive a 3/16 - 7/32 hole through 14ga than it does a 1/8 - 5/32. Which size punch you use depends on the purpose of the rivet: rigid hold or articulation, for which you want a trifle more, but need only a trifle. That's 1/64" rattle room either side.

Using a many-small-rivets method leaves a lot of scope to arrange the rivets decoratively, say in groups of three or of four, like ... ... ... or .... .... -- a simple way to have an artistic hat, for absolutely no more skill and experience than applying large rivets singly would need. All the better if your spangen has other fancy features to it, such as eyebrows, an elaborated nasal (very plain nasals seem to have been more in fashion with the spangen's successor, the Norman Conical, with its one-piece, hot-raised skull and the nasal if present often being integral with the skull) or a taller point to the skull shape. Tall helmets are a somewhat weak though still possible indicator for spangens and conicals of Celt make. Celts often liked 'em tall and carried this liking into the fourteenth century in the Celtic Fringe areas.

The easiest kind of rivet to use is the flat-headed, or tinners', rivet, with the heads turned to inside the helmet. Back it with something solid -- a crowbar in a vise or a small ball stake will do -- and pein the rivet on the outside where there's some darn room to swing the hammer. Rivet-sets, homemade of a Grade 8 3/4" bolt (or drill rod) or commercial oblong hunks of steel, make a neat job of heading your rivet easy.

Lay out the line your rivets will follow on your bands, which overlap the quarter-panels, with Sharpie and a flexible rule or a length of wire (hold these carefully in place while marking the rivet line -- tape 'em on). Then set to marking the center of each rivet hole per whatever scheme you use, centerpunch, and metal punch or else drill. Make the hole the same diameter as the rivet shank.

And along the same lines, for 16 gauge articulated knees, what diameter rivets work well?

The SCA habit is 3/16 here, but the historical armourers seemed happy with rivet shanks nearer 1/8". Often it seems something else, usually the rivet hole, goes out of spec or gets damaged badly before the rivet will break. Rivets are tough. Some reckon the articulated joints are thereby made more wear-proof and minimize maintenance time. That may be. Others aren't so sure.

Welcome and well come, Hogun. May your stay with us be long and profit you much.

[The Iron Dwarf]

KTR your maths is a little off, the area of a 1/2" rivet is more than 4 times the area of 1/8" rivet

[Mac]

[

And along the same lines, for 16 gauge articulated knees, what diameter rivets work well?

The SCA habit is 3/16 here, but the historical armourers seemed happy with rivet shanks nearer 1/8".

This.

Where historical articulating rivets have survived, they are typically about 1/8" in shank diameter. I have been using 1/8" rivets working in #30 (.1265") holes for decades.

Mac

[wcallen]

What Mac said.

And I have a nice counter example to the 3/16. We used 3/16 for articulation rivets back in the dark ages (the 1980's) and we had to refurb a pair of legs after several years. The rivets were fine, but they had worked the holes in the plates out so large we had to rework them before we could put the thing back together. I would rather replace a rivet every few years than have to rebuild the armour around the rivets.

I have a good deal of 16th c. armour. I haven't found an articulation rivet over 1/8" yet. Good for them, good for us.

Wade

P.S. Yes, the bolts on the sides of a close helmet are bigger, but that is different.

[Konstantin the Red]

KTR your maths is a little off, the area of a 1/2" rivet is more than 4 times the area of 1/8" rivet

Which is why I only said diameter. You're right of course, and make the better point. Figure the rivet shank cross section area, multiply by the number of rivets; there's what's holding the pieces together.

[hogun]

Thanks for the speedy responses.

I prefer learning some things ahead of time rather than through trial and error.

[Konstantin the Red]

Fortunately, spacing helm rivets too far apart is a very easy thing to fix. All the helm wants is more rivets put in between the others.

[Kristoffer]

I have an additional question regarding rivet sizes since I am about to start making my own rivets.

I use 3mm rivets but the head size on the commercially available rivets here are very small compared to what I see on pictures of extant armour.

1/8" shank for most articulation rivets but what is the correct head diameter?

[wcallen]

I have an additional question regarding rivet sizes since I am about to start making my own rivets.

I use 3mm rivets but the head size on the commercially available rivets here are very small compared to what I see on pictures of extant armour.

1/8" shank for most articulation rivets but what is the correct head diameter?

Unfortunately the right answer depends on what period you want to copy. 14th c. armours generaly have almost no head on the outside, 15th c. Italian 15th c. has similarly small heads, moving into a wider but relatively flat head. Late 15th c. German got more into the heads and made them more like we would expect (larger than modern 1/" rivets come with normally. 16th c. is another story all together and they seem to be mot commonly capped with a separate dapped disk to form the head.

So the right answer will depend on what you are trying to copy.

Also, sometimes what you see isn't original. A lot of armours have been reworked several times between the last time they were used and now. Different collections had different ways of choosing what rivets they used.

Wade

[losthelm]

Depending on the project, using something like a rivet set to stamp the rivet head may be worth making. Simple cone and sphericle shape should be fairly was to carve with a drill, burr, or milling bit.

[Kristoffer]

I have considered that but I am currently making 16th century gauntlets and I haven't found any evidence of decorated rivets being used.

[wcallen]

The rivets on this gauntlet (at least some of them) have a decent chance of being original:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-197.html

They vary in size. Some that I can reach seem to have heads that are app. .270 in diameter. This is a measurement of the head including the cap. You can see rivets both with and without the caps on that piece. That should provide scale to help work out how big things should/could be.

We did pretty decent 16th c style rivets using normal 1/8" round head rivets with larger brass dapped disks soldered on top.

Wade

[C. Gadda]

Unfortunately the right answer depends on what period you want to copy. 14th c. armours generaly have almost no head on the outside, 15th c. Italian 15th c. has similarly small heads, moving into a wider but relatively flat head. Late 15th c. German got more into the heads and made them more like we would expect (larger than modern 1/" rivets come with normally. 16th c. is another story all together and they seem to be mot commonly capped with a separate dapped disk to form the head.

So the right answer will depend on what you are trying to copy.

Also, sometimes what you see isn't original. A lot of armours have been reworked several times between the last time they were used and now. Different collections had different ways of choosing what rivets they used.

Wade

An expanded write up on this accompanied with pix and diagrams would be a worthwhile tutorial for armourers. Heck, I'd pay for someone to write this, or fund a Kickstarter effort, etc.

[Kristoffer]

Wade, that is interesting to hear. The commercially available rivets here are 3 mm shank, 5 mm head. .270" in metric is 6,858 mm. A rivet with 4 mm shank has a 7 mm head so I guess the head size is one of the reasons people use rivets that are too big.

I think I will make a tool to make 3 mm shanks and about 7mm heads. That will be a good start before I start experimenting with capping and soldering. I will save that for nicer pieces then what I am working on right now.

What about decorated heads on steel rivets, are there any exemple like that for articulation rivets?

[wcallen]

knowing what is really right can be really, really hard. Most armour has been re-worked, some more extensively than others.

A story will help us.....

Tom Justus and I both had the opportunity, at different times, to go talk to the people in the back shop at the Royal Armouries when it was really still all housed at the Tower of London. One thing Tom asked them was where they got their rivets.... Well, they had an annoyingly simple answer. Their rivets were modern round heads (on many obvious pieces) and the holes had just been bored out to make them work.

OUCH......

The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY has a lot of pieces with round headed rivets cut into rosettes. Not the big ones on the sides of salades, normal little rivets. Those are known as "Riggs rivets" because they were used in the retrofit of lots of the armour he owned. I don't know of any basis for his use of the rivets, but he liked them.

After that we have to be very careful to find pieces that we know haven't been messed with post working life. That limits us to a very small percentage of the extant pieces. Art work can help a lot here to help determine what is "right" and what isn't.

As to making the rivets, I think one reason they capped the rivets in the 16th c. is that getting a good, reliable heading process to make the (relatively) large head on the (relatively) small shank is hard. Mac had a bunch of rivets made and the manufacturer wasn't all that happy. We were pretty much at the edge of what was reasonable. Or maybe that was when Craig had the brig nails made... but both projects were really more extreme than normal modern tooling usually does. Capping can turn out to be easier. Which is one reason I think that they did it.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

Aha, my idea was to pretty much do this but with a jig of sorts..

https://youtu.be/PyUDOc8oF4o

It looks very simple but I guess looks can be decieving. Capping the commercial rivets might have to be done but I will still give it a go to make some..

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Their rivets were modern round heads (on many obvious pieces) and the holes had just been bored out to make them work.

I wouldn't blame the current staff for that; a century or so ago, the soldiers in charge were scrubbing off the gilding with brick dust and motor oil, and, as so often has been done, boring out the holes to make the rivets on hand work. The things done by the folk at Hannover...

I consider original hole AND rivet sizes to be critical information about the armour. I've seen several cases where original rivets were small in big holes, allowing limited sliding articulation which was just enough to get the job done; 'slop' could be useful. Rivets that 'fit' better would have mostly eliminated that essential movement. I don't bore out holes.

[wcallen]

No, it wasn't the current staff that did it. They were good enough to report on their predecessors.

It is really annoying that things like that happen. Sometimes it is amazing how much messing around happens over time. Annoying... and it means that it takes a really practiced eye to know what to look at and what to ignore.

Wade