The Armour Archive

As I sat knitting some 4 in 1 butted mail while watching various movies and documentaries I was noticing that their weave seemed to be 90 degrees opposite the way that I am working. Is there a preferred weave direction? I'm just making sheets to attach together so I can change now as long as I don't make them too long.

Swordsmith

www.oakandacorn.com

They should run in this direction.

(((((((((((((((
)))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((
)))))))))))))))

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

I've seen a limited amount running the other way on some camails. My impression was that they thought that if it went out past the shoulders it might offer greater protection to the neck. I think that this was a variation that did not last very long.

Also, are you sure it was real mail, and not the spray painted woven stuff?

What Matt drew is the common thing.

But Connoly (Greece and Rome at War) has a drawing of a Roman carving (I think that's what it was) that shows it 90 degrees off,
and I just saw drawings of a Golden Horde burial find with a helmet -- the maile curtain had been reconstructed again 90 degrees off.

However, while I trust Connoly (a disciple of Robinson) and his drawing is of a period ROman carving --
In the case of the Golden Horde burial item - it may just be a mistake for all I know.

Certainly the orientation Matt shows is true 99.9 % of the time.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Yes, I rewound the tape a couple of times and verified that it was real mail. However, many of the close-ups were of coifs which may not have meant anything.

Thanks for the info before I got too far and actually started assembling it.

Swordsmith

www.oakandacorn.com

yeh, I agree with what norman and mad matt said is right for historical stuff...
but if by chance you're making a fantasy armor or modern fashion thing, be creative and hang it however you like.. hmmm, 45 degrees from however you are hanging it now might look kinda cool for a shirt or something.

Matt's right; just wanted to add *why*:

You want the maille to "bunch up" to provide more metal between you and someone who's trying to see if you really have the guts---by direct visual inspection.

If you turn it sideways it "opens up" providing less metal between you and the nasties *and* providing all those nice "holes" to sang a blade and draw it inward.

Thomas

I've read a number of theories about how to orient maille- the only thing that all of them agree on is: Early Armorers were really very competent and skilled at angling and shaping armour to cause blows to skip and glance. This is the reasoning I've heard for orienting mail to "roll down" on both torso and coif- and then also on the arms, which is much more difficult (because of the join with the shoulder/torso).

Actually Dweezle running the pattern on a 45 is a bad idea for a shirt. It makes it hang all crooked at the bottom.

I speak from experience since my first ever piece of maille (a vest) was done that way.

Man that thing is ugly. 1/2" rings 16,17 and 18 gauge galvanized mild and bronze placed in accordance to what I could get my hands on at the time I was at wherever I was at and ran out of wire.

But hey I was 13 and had to figure it all out on my own. My reference material was well ... a buncha round rings that connect together to make a fabric. And the painted long-john maille from some bad fantasy movies.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Well, I thought I would throw my two cents in. The direction that Mad Matt is correct. Now if you are doing a shirt that is where the interesting part comes in. Sleeves are one of the most controversial things. Now to keep the direction the same you have to do a directional change. The best way I have found is described here

http://members.nbci.com/colluphid/pattern/hauberk.html

However, I have found in my research that if you do not do the direction change it does make the rings on the sleeves spread out, but it is a period pattern for German style Hauberks.

Well, I hope this helps out, and good luck with whatever project it is you are doing.


------------------
Kiernan Delaney
The Drunken Irishman

I disagree, The best way I have found to keep the sleeves running the same way as the torso is to use the expanding rings method.

It is easier to tailor to fit by varying the position of the expansions, and doesn't have any seams. It is a lot more difficult to make though, It's the same procedure that you would use for a coif or mantle

It's been quite a while since I worked on one, but as I recall, it should roll straight off the shoulder. The only seem would be underneath the armpit. Put a large swatch on your elbow. Try running it each way, and you will find that one way is much more comfortable.

Hmm, interesting idea Lorenzo. I had never thought to do that. I have used the 45 degree change before which worked great. I will have to give the expanding ring method a try. I have been planning on making myself a shirt for quite some time now. I have done many mantles and coifs before with the expanding ring method so I am well versed in it.
I currently have a coif that is at the chain maille frisby stage. One of these days I will continue to work on it again, or maybe I will chuck it (pardon the pun) since it is galvanized and start again with stainless like I prefer. Thanks for the idea Lorenzo.

------------------
Kiernan Delaney
The Drunken Irishman

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mad Matt:
<B>Actually Dweezle running the pattern on a 45 is a bad idea for a shirt. It makes it hang all crooked at the bottom.

I speak from experience since my first ever piece of maille (a vest) was done that way.

Man that thing is ugly. 1/2" rings 16,17 and 18 gauge galvanized mild and bronze placed in accordance to what I could get my hands on at the time I was at wherever I was at and ran out of wire.

But hey I was 13 and had to figure it all out on my own. My reference material was well ... a buncha round rings that connect together to make a fabric. And the painted long-john maille from some bad fantasy movies.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can picture how an attempt at a shirt like that could look really bad, but I can also see it looking really good to.. I bet if you tried it again with all the maille weaving knowledge you've gained since you started, you'd have a nice looking shirt (not a nice looking historical shirt, but a nice looking modern one)
heh, 16 and 17 gauge rings at half inch ID are ugly.. I wasted about ten pounds of stainless rings of that size on my first "shirt".

I think the crooked bottom problem would be fairly easy to fix. it'd be a little wavy but if dags were added (also woven at the same angle, shaped like a corner of euro 4in1 woven at the standard 90 degrees) it'd look better.

but all of what I'm saying here is just based on me looking at this sheet of euro 4 in 1 that I have here in front of me and a little knowledge from doing bracelets that are euro 4 in 1 with the weave running 45 degrees to what is standard. I've never made anything as big as a shirt like that but I hope to give it a try sometime

Matt / Dweezle --

There's a guy in NY who used to use a "Herringbone pattern" maile shirt --
it looked quite cool actually.