Definition of "archer" knees/elbows?

[Tibbie Croser]

In terms of SCA armor, what differentiates "archer's" elbows and knees from standard multipiece elbows and knees? For example, Bokalo's site shows both "archer" and standard kinds. The "archer" joints seem to have a pointed lame.

[Johann ColdIron]

The Archer style is often depicted on people with bows. The joint armour appears to be metal with a vaguely paint colored upper leg and shin. The armour usually has what might be termed a demi quisse and a demi greave at the ends of their articulated lames. I do not remember the verdict we had here on what they are actually wearing in period.

It's kind of an SCAism. Easy to make and relatively easy for people to shape and attach leather or plastic to extend them to fit the entire limb. Since people come in all shapes and sizes the "custom" portion is done by the user.

Results can vary with skill. I find that the demi plates on elbows tend to get in the way and add weight. Legs the demi greave can be handy and the demi quisse can resist the damage we try to inflict an 1" above the knee.

[Sean Powell]

I have always heard it used in connection with non-rigid thigh and shin defense. As an archer could likely afford less armor they protected only the essentials thus meaning a cop attached to quilted leggings or similar. Evidence seems primarily drawn from manuscript illustrations, I'm not aware of any surviving joint cops that were not intended to be attached to full limb defense.

Sean

[Cian of Storvik]

I think you and John have the right of it, Tibbie. It seems to be an assumption based upon a few illustrations; particularly in a 1400's manuscript of Froissart's Chroniques. In the past "archer's knees" have been brought up in discussion as to how they simply stay there without any apparent means of suspension. Having no visible cuisse to hang from, or any lower leg defense to rest upon and keep from sliding down the leg.

[John S.]

Absolutely an SCA-ism and the definition varies from armourer to armourer. If they don't provide pictures, the best thing to do is ask the armourer.

That said, in SCA use they are often an articulated knee or elbow with demi (half) coverage of the thighs and lower legs or forearms and upper arms. These provide a convenient point to rivet on DIY leather, splint, or plastic cuisses, greaves, vambraces, or rerebraces.

Historically, (as far as I know,)"archers knees and elbows" didn't exist. Articulated elbows and knees were attached to metal. Materials like hardened leather, splinted, padded, or chain were used with non-articulated (also called floating) knee or elbow cops.

Cian posted while I was typing. Guess I have to take back the comment they didn't exist. Let's modify that to articulated knees without cuisse and greave existed. Articulated knees attached to non-metal cuisse and greave weren't the common approach

[wcallen]

note the nice pictures.
Knees, not elbows.

I have made them and I think that it is really something people do to make things easy for the armourer. They (think) that they can get away with a lot less customization in size/shape and get away with it. For many customers it seems to work.

As the pictures show, the concept is something that they did (at least for knees). For low-end soldiers like archers.

This is one of them I have in my collection:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-200.html

Wade

[Myron]

Are there any surviving 15th century pieces that could be considered "archer's" knees? I'm considering trying to make some before making a full leg harness since I have never made articulated knees before and would look nicer than my current rig.

[wcallen]

Mine was sold as a late 15th c. survivor. I personally believe that it is early 16th c.

I have seen surviving examples in Paris and I have seen pictures of surviving examples in Madrid. From memory none of them look exactly like the thing in the manuscript, but they are close and cover the right parts of the leg.

Wade

[Myron]

Thanks Wade, I thought yours looked later as well. I will do some digging when I get a chance. Yours looks like it was strapped with two straps, one above and one below the knee. I have found some manuscript illustrations that show the same thing. Would they fit close enough to stay on the leg, or do you think they would be pointed as well?

[wcallen]

We can use this as a tool to "learn what the armour is telling us."

You can actually see this from either the outside or the inside, but having both views is extra nice.

Looking at my "archer's knee" we see:
rivets along the upper edge.
Rivets at the sides of the "cuisse"
Rivets (and a buckle) on the bottom plate.
Rivets in the center of the cop on both the inside of the leg and in the wing.

So, we can deduce that it most likely started out with:
A strip of leather across the top that could be used to point the cuisse to the body.
A leather strap and buckle around the back of the cuisse
A leather strap and buckle around the center of the knee
A leather strap and buckle near the bottom of the bottom plate around the top of the lower leg.

The strap at the center of the knee helps it stay in place. If the armour isn't to heavy, it will often stay in place without the points. At least under reasonable movement. SCA armour is often to heavy for this to work.

Wade

[Myron]

I see it now Wade, thank you for making it clear. I looked at your pictures quickly on my phone earlier, your website is blocked from work. Yeah I should be working, but I was on lunch. I didn't even think of the row of rivets on the cuisse being used for leather that could be pointed. I found another from a quick search in Goll, it's Ref_Arm_2927 from Dresden. It's similar but earlier, Goll dates it to 1450-60 but it seems like it could be later to me. It actually has eyelets on the demi cuisse and greave plates, a strap behind the knee, as well as rows of holes along the top and bottom plates for leather or possibly a lining? In the .pdf there are some more pics of the interior and sides.

If I make some, it will be out of more of the super thin 4130 I still have and weight won't me much of an issue.

Myron

[wcallen]

The knees in Paris are on the right hand figure here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dalbera/4513602843

Wade

[dabbler]

Just to add- in the back of Blair's "European Armour", there's a drawing of a "Right cuisse and poleyn to be worn without a greave. Spanish(?), c.1500" from the Fitzwilliam collection in Cambridge, that appears nearly identical to the one in Wade's collection-
as in "other one of the pair" identical...

[Myron]

I found three more so far in Goll, one photo from the Met that is partly reconstructed, and the other two from Philadelphia.

[Sean M]

note the nice pictures.
Knees, not elbows.

I have made them and I think that it is really something people do to make things easy for the armourer. They (think) that they can get away with a lot less customization in size/shape and get away with it. For many customers it seems to work.

As the pictures show, the concept is something that they did (at least for knees). For low-end soldiers like archers.

This is one of them I have in my collection:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-200.html

Wade

Over on Facebook, Jackson Tutchener-Ellis found a panel painting which seems to show an archer's knee pointed at the top to the hose. The archer in question is shoving Christ towards Calvary.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... C05175.JPG

Edit: detail seems to be by Roel Renmans https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 168542128/ care of Jens Börmer https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/719309371712724401/

Does anyone know of other art that shows this detail? And has anyone seen evidence for fifteenth-century hose with a linen lining below the butt cheek? Petro Monte ch. 107 seems to refer to hose with an upper half and a lower half, and the layers cloth, mail strips, linen lining is in the upper half.

CVII. ON HOSE.
To make the HOSE (calligas) which we wear strong and flexible, iron mail must be made, and listas or strips of iron loricas should be placed between the cloth and the lining of the hose, and the listas should not be too long, except that they should reach the knee or the back of the knee, or three fingers below the knee, and above the knee the lorica should be divided in two parts like a fork, not to be an impediment to us, and from the knee down the listas are to be put in the half-boots (coturnis), and they should come to join the others which are inside the hose, and in this way we remain no more bound than if we would have only hose and half-boots, though somewhat heavier. But when having placed the iron loricas or mail with the hose of linen weave or otherwise of wool cloth coming up, it is always enormous work; and one lista of the half-boots of iron mail should stretch over the foot as far as the toes.

Toby has a point that we need a study of Flemish-Burgundian armour of the later fifteenth century.