The Armour Archive

Ok. It seems finding a smith to make a decent custom helm is a challenging task. I've now ordered a helm twice, and found the workmanship lacking in both cases. Rivets peened wrong/sloppily (or just missing...symmetry is not just a suggestion, it's essential), welding used to cover up design flaws, rough work, even if it looks decent on the outside.

When I lay out the coin for a custom helm, I do expect a certain level of workmanship (details, details, details).

That said, I would appreciate some recommendations for what most here would consider "the absolute Best" or "cream of the crop," top five. Ordering something sight unseen has its perils, and would like to know that the wait time and money will be well-spent.

Will avoid mentioning the two sources I have already used.

For the record, this would be for a Viking-style in stainless with ocular and full welded or riveted stainless maille drape, with probable design extras.

Who can do this, that's not more than a year and a half out, and has an eye for details? Price is not really an object.

Thanks to all.

MS

Mac
Ugo
Hedgecock

Although none of them focus on Viking, but they all have the requisite skill. I don't know if any are taking orders so any would likely be more than a year and a half out.

Knottwolf maybe within that genera?

I think that modern man is too preoccupied with symmetry. Armor is hand-made and medieval armorsmiths had a passing acquaintance with symmetry that few people appreciate.

"Viking" with occulars over a bar-grill or slapping some cast brass on a round-top bascinet is significantly different than viking with presblocks and a museum grade reproduction of Sutton Ho. If we knew more about what you did and did not find acceptable with your previous helms we might be able to help more.

Luck,
Sean

Thanks for the suggestions, Sean. By symmetry, I mean that if there was a rivet on one side, there should probably be one on the other side. Sloppy welding used to cover up design flaws.

Looking for a Vendel-style four-plate spangen, or possibly a fluted one-piece skull. No bargrill.

ETA: Neither Ugo nor Mac apparently work in stainless. Amazing artisans though.

ETA: Mac isn't taking commissions at this time.

Aesir Metalworks.

http://www.aesirmetalwyrks.com/

Dave Rylak made my Nikolskoye helm. I'm happy the workmanship and appearance. Custom work isn't his normal business model, so you'd have to talk him into it.

Andy Ward could do it, too. Since you don't like bargrills, he's known for plasma cut faces. He's another you'd have to talk into it.

Knotwolf is known for his signature patinas. I think I remember that at one point, he only did custom work for military service members. You could check whether his policies changed.

Lots of folks have the ability to do what you want. When negotiating, be sure to fully communicate your expectations with them. Most armourers would be happy to put more time into a piece, you just have to let them know that you'll compensate them appropriately for it.

John S. wrote:Dave Rylak made my Nikolskoye helm. I'm happy the workmanship and appearance. Custom work isn't his normal business model, so you'd have to talk him into it.

Andy Ward could do it, too. Since you don't like bargrills, he's known for plasma cut faces. He's another you'd have to talk into it.

Lots of folks could take this on. When negotiating, be sure to fully communicate your expectations with them. Most armourers would be happy to put more time into a piece, you just have to get on the same page and compensate them for it.

Thanks John. I have one of Dave's spring tempered breastplates from way back, excellent piece of kit. Was not aware that he was still smithing.

Will get in touch with Andy as well.

Dave made my helm c. 2007. We corresponded about Rough From the Hammer parts in December 2015.

Dunno if I'd place myself in the top 5, but I have made stainless vendels. That being said, my own current helmet is Aesir.

John S. wrote:When negotiating, be sure to fully communicate your expectations with them. Most armourers would be happy to put more time into a piece, you just have to let them know that you'll compensate them appropriately for it.

This is why it's nearly impossible to answer the question of who or which is "best". One man may define "best" by closeness to historical artifacts, not stainless, no bars in the eyes, rivets not measured out with a ruler, etc. The next man may define "best" as looking like he imagines in his mind. The third man may define "best" as including a certain number of features for less than a certain dollar amount within a certain delivery time. If whoever you choose doesn't understand your criteria for "best", you may always be disappointed.

Ok, good example of what I mean. Take Terry Tyndall's masks. Every aspect of them were well-executed. Every rivet properly set, each piece looked like it was given proper consideration. If I am spending over 1500 for a piece, I'd like the same amount of care that went into a mask that cost a fifth of that.

THAT is what I am having an issue with. Quality of build, for the outlay.

Get in touch with Waldryk with Firedryk Steel. His work is pretty spectacular.

Zanetto is worth looking at but I'm not sure if he takes comisions.

Armure Dubé is worth asking, his YouTube videos are great but I'm not sure if he does stainless.
He's French Canadian so your dollar may go a little further.

As for chainmail its likely going to be made by someone else and simply added on.
95% of what you will find available is made in India or Pakistan.
Weldedchainmail.com or customchainmail.com are a better quality product.
Made or assembled in the Statea.

Don't forget Darkwood Armory as an option for welded mail. I love my custom haubergeon from them.

John Gruber at Surly Anvil

Have you seen originals? Uneven rivet lines, Crooked flutes and creases, rough spots... all common "flaws" that the modern eye, used to machine perfection, can't deal with.

The thing about having a known, or "expert" smith do a project is that most of the top ones cited get to pick if they actually want to do your project. You have to have something cool that interests, or challenges them. And, sometimes YOU have to be known, so that they know it's worth their while and you aren't going to annoy the crap out of them as they do it, change specifications or flake out and not pony up the cash when it's done.

Metalskinproductions.com Or Metal Skin Productions on Facebook

Jeff J wrote:Have you seen originals? Uneven rivet lines, Crooked flutes and creases, rough spots... all common "flaws" that the modern eye, used to machine perfection, can't deal with.

The thing about having a known, or "expert" smith do a project is that most of the top ones cited get to pick if they actually want to do your project. You have to have something cool that interests, or challenges them. And, sometimes YOU have to be known, so that they know it's worth their while and you aren't going to annoy the crap out of them as they do it, change specifications or flake out and not pony up the cash when it's done.

I have. And to use that as an excuse for poor workmanship is a logical fallacy.

If I wanted as close to historic armor as possible, I would be using\stipulating charcoal plate, and only tools that were available then. I am not. I want something that is as well-made as can be using modern materials, methods, and tools. And conversely, some historic pieces exceed by far what most modern smiths can produce.

And again, the issue is not design/artistry shortcomings. It is simply attention to detail. Flaws that an armorer, of whatever era, should not and would not let slide. Crooked lines are less of an issue than badly peened rivets, burrs, and other similar things. I have seen many first pieces that, while proportionally off, and with several crooked lines as you put it, were extremely well-executed: each rivet domed well, finish lovingly worked, smooth as a bar of soap. There has to be a combination of both execution and design in what I would consider middle-high-end custom helms ($1400-$1900) range. Otherwise it dilutes the marketplace and lowers the expectations.

And it's not my first rodeo: once the design is finalized, crapping out is not going to happen on my part. However, if I am not satisfied with the work, I am not going to eat the expense. I am paying for a craftsman to provide work commensurate with their compensation. I expect it to meet the value that I have exchanged for it.

I am appreciating the input so far, and I have several leads that I am pursuing.

OK.... Suggest you start practicing raising metal.

Spending those sums on a helmet would suffice to buy you a very effective essential shop with which to create an artistic helmet. No bad thing. In its lengthy way, it offers advantages. Length of time may not be much of an object either; you've been at this helmquest quite some time.

What's needed after getting that shop is time in it, devoted to leveling up to the skill to make the art of your dreams. You motivated? You want to find ways to overcome obstacles the world may throw in your way? To overcome obstacles within yourself, which are very often the steepest?

Mahiro, can you become the wonderful artist you'd want to patronize?

I'd say if you can swing a hammer, shear sheet metal, and read a book, you can become that person. Is that really so much, at all?

Jeff,Konstantin,

Current circumstances prevent me from having a shop (constant travel for work). I spent the better part of 95-2005 raising, beating and weaving metal. Have built two suits of Tatami-do, and other pieces of Western kit. I simply have more money than time right now, and cost to benefit wise, it makes more sense to purchase the armor than build.

Having said that, I'm leaning more towards getting a welded top and working it as time/space permits (a few hours once a month when I'm able to share space). All the tools <hammers, forming stakes, etc.) are with a relative.

I'd love to build the helm to my specs. And may just end up doing that.

As always advice and critique received with thanks.

Aha. That clears it up well, thanks, I needed to be brought to speed -- kinda figured having time at all for whatever reason was the stiffest problem. Working with premade tops is of course sensible for about anybody not doing something really odd or trying to piece together a Japanese helmet from eensy bits and a mass of rivets rivaling the mass of the flat metal.

"If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself."
Of course, when you want to start complaining about the inevitable long delays, missed completion dates and piss-poor communication from the armorer, you'll just be talking about yourself.
-Cian

Many a true word spoken in jest there, Cian. Though the communication troubles would not be among the true parts!

Not taking orders-but once upon a time someone gave me a bunch of bits from Raymonds and some 14 g bronze sheet-and I made this. He wanted a "ventilated party hat with style". He got one.

Holy crap, Bender! That is drop dead gorgeous!

How about Thorkil? He has made some pretty awesome looking dark age helmet replicas.

http://www.thorkil.pl/dark_ages_helmets.htm

Robert of stokewood should be on the list.
I'm not sure if he does stainless but he's upfront about completion date.

I see some perhaps contradictory information. Are you looking for a helmet to compete in SCA style combat? or a living history helmet?
First, if you are looking for a "High end" helmet, decorated in a Vendel, Sutton Hoo manner, then I think you more in the $2500-$4500 range.

Here are 2 Vendel style helmets I made. These where fabricated from 1050 spring steel, custom press-blachs and custom waxes for the crest terminal and eyebrows. All decorative other elements where made from sheet materials. I would not consider making a piece like this, now that I have all the press-blachs, for under $5000. If it were custom from scratch, I'd estimate more like $7500 to $9000.


This one is finished with fine silver decoration. This adds some additional cost of course.



Now, given my overhead with a big shop that mainly does entertainment industry work, and living in LA (nor the cheapest place to live) my prices are likly higher than others.

If you are looking for this level of work, and for a living history style, I would recommend Thorkill or Ganderwick Creations.

If however you want an SCA helmet, I think Dave at ASIR is the best way to go.

Viking helms.. I mostly consider myself a munitions grade armorer. I do make some very pretty Viking helms, but based on your descriptions above I am not the craftsmen you are looking for. I would consider Dave Demers of Aesir Metalwyrks. John Gruber is another who does the level of work you seem to be looking for, but Viking helms are not really his thing. I (and I am sure most of the other armorers here as well) would like to hear more about the specific helms that you were unhappy with. Pics of the helms both in broad view and close ups of the problem areas.

Amanda M wrote:Aesir Metalworks.

http://www.aesirmetalwyrks.com/

Ask Dave if you can rent the "Helmeter"

Bender wrote:Not taking orders-but once upon a time someone gave me a bunch of bits from Raymonds and some 14 g bronze sheet-and I made this. He wanted a "ventilated party hat with style". He got one.

HOLY SHIT!


Nice work!

accdntprone wrote:Viking helms.. I mostly consider myself a munitions grade armorer. I do make some very pretty Viking helms, but based on your descriptions above I am not the craftsmen you are looking for. I would consider Dave Demers of Aesir Metalwyrks. John Gruber is another who does the level of work you seem to be looking for, but Viking helms are not really his thing. I (and I am sure most of the other armorers here as well) would like to hear more about the specific helms that you were unhappy with. Pics of the helms both in broad view and close ups of the problem areas.

Do not sell yourself short.........

Something about your posts sounds like a high potential for the kind of drama and headaches I hear armourers lament about. Since three of the four names I can think of are people I think of as friends to varying degrees I'm going to send them this thread rather than volunteer them. Good luck, hope you find what you're looking for

Done. Sent this thread to four armourers- three I know personally, two of whom I have things from and one I think very highly of though I don't personally have anything from him, and a fourth in Russia I think who's stuff I see online often and who has a great eye for aesthetics too. Wether they respond or not is their choice. Good luck