The Armour Archive

So, I am making an early armour for a friend and I have roughed out the knee cops and started on the greaves. I am trying to decide how to connect the cops to the greaves and the cuisses. Do we know anything about how they did it? If not, do we have any tested, viable solutions?

The legs are in the style as these:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/eff ... _r6194.jpg

what i have found to work for me is to use two leather strips that will connect the greaves to the cuisses. these leather strips should pass around the sides of the knee cap. you should be able to kneel easily with this design, if not the straps need to be further apart. once this works well you can then mount the cops with a single rivet per leather strip. this will allow the cop to pivot when you need it to.

I attach a leather tab on the knee and the cuisse then point them together.

rotccapt, that was my initial idea since it is pretty much the solution used for floating elbows.

What bothers me is that I cant find any rivets or other marks on effigies. There is an extant poleyn in the royal armouries but I cant find any closeup pictures of it to see where holes can be. It looks like there is a number of tiny holes in odd places on it and three weird loops or hooks on the bottom (or top) side..

I did up a pair of legs like that when I decided to replace my later legs.

The greaves strapped onto the body and didn't connect to anything else.
The cuisses had holes for arming points under the cops.
The knees had internal tabs which had holes used for lacing.
The knees had a strap and buckle around the back.
The result was no visible laces or leathers.

It worked very nicely. No need for anything securing the cuisse to the greave.

This assumes that the greave fits well enough that it doesn't slide down. If it doesn't, you will probably have issues no matter how you try to secure things.

Wade

Of course Wade! Thank you. Did you countersink and grind flat the rivets for the leather in the cop?

The greaves will be built with a good fit. They will only be front greaves but well shaped and fitted. It is my first attempt at greaves but I am confident that they will be ok. I have done my homework and preparations well.

My greaves were front only - schynbalds - too. They fit well enough that they would stay up and off of my instep if either of the straps were buckled, and never had any problems at all with both buckled. I had one strap above the wide part of the calf (so it could "hang" like a cased greave) and one at the narrow spot. I chose to put the straps on the inside of the greave to increase how well they held on to my leg. More contact.

The question about the rivets on the cop leads to a ticklish point. When I did the ones for my kid's halloween costume I did use flush rivets and grind and polish them out. They gave the look I am used to on the brasses - no visible means of support.

But, I was being a bit of a goof on my legs. I made them as part of making "cheap SCA armour" so they went along with floating arms that only covered the outside of the arms. Very 1320's or so. Since I was intentionally moving backwards in time and down in technology to make something that "anyone should be able to do" - at least if they bought cops from Rough from the Hammer - I continued the trend and used two piece rivets for everything. So the rivets on the cops did show. They still weren't too glaring. If I hadn't been on the "anyone should be able to do this" kick, I would have made the rivets flush and hidden them.

Annoyingly when I showed up to practice after moving back to simple cheap stuff, I was still the best dressed or tied for it.

I had replaced Churburg style steel cuisses with a bump out in the bottom of the cuisse instead an upper lame, and articulated arms with closed vambraces (built with integral hinges) with cheap floating stuff and I hadn't dropped far enough. Annoying. But I digress. I hadn't replaced my breastplate or bascinet with something "cheaper," and I never did.

Wade

I am making this kit as a very "cheap" outfit to get my friend on the field. I will leave it rough from the hammer and blacken it. Intention is to upgrade it bit by bit and probably move him forward in time as we upgrade parts. It will have an interesting look once a few pieces have been replaced with 20-40 years difference between parts..

Some people think that cuisses and poleyns of plate often had cloth linings from the late 14th century. Early 14th century cuisses seem to be of cloth or leather over small plates. Claude Blair's suggestion (European Armour p. 63) was that the cloth or leather foundation of the cuisse continues under the poleyn and forms the fringe below, and the poleyn was riveted to it. I don't know if he had someone make up a set like that and try them on though ... but if right, the padded lining in plate cuisses could be a descendant of the foundation of studded cuisses.

Just to make things complicated:

Richardson, Medieval Inventories of the Tower of London, p. 74 wrote:In 1353 Rothwell recieved ... 103 pairs and the single cuisse of leather and small plates covered in red leather ... 103 pairs and the single poleyn of leather and small plates covered in red leather

So in 1353 some English soldiers were wearing poleyns of covered small plates which could be detached from the cuisse without much trouble. I have also seen references to poleyns of mail somewhere. Matching either to pictures would be great!

Interesting! I wonder how that would look. I assume they used smaller pieces hard riveted together to form poleyns and covered them to hide the patchwork rather then it being some kind of brigandine setup. I have seen what looks like splinted greaves on effigies from this period but nothing that I can think of that looks like a poleyn made from pieces..