The Armour Archive

I have never seen a good one of these:

Woodswork Armory wrote: I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Are you referring to the effigy of Günther von Bünau?
Dated 1431
Church, Droyßig, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

In the end, I suppose it comes down to your ability to sell the item after you make it. As much as I would love to learn from you doing the things that interest me, , I learn something from everything that you do. Go with what you think will help you to make more projects in the future. From a practical point of view, I wouldn't think that the bicoque would have a huge market in the reenactor community but might be desirable within the collector market. Anything Maximillian looks like it would be torture on the hands and elbows with all of the fluting and hammer work involved.

Mac wrote:There are a shit-ton of bad ones out there, and very few respectable examples. Even the ones that look OK have some little point that's off. I'm not sure I have ever seen one that used the correct method of joining the central plates.

Kastenbrust are very under-represented while CH13 is very over-represented, but as you say the overwhelming majority of CH13s are mere caricatures of the original object. People are not going to stop making CH13-like-objects anytime soon. Having the 'Mac Treatment' of a CH13 project done right would be invaluable to the community and for the inevitable reproductions that will follow.

I'd really love to see both though! /evillaugh

Chris Gilman wrote:I have never seen a good one of these:

You taunt me, sir!

I haven't seen one I really like, either. This doesn't really qualify for my next project, though. It's a lot of (heavy!) work, a lot of decoration, and a vanishingly small market.

Mac

Tom B. wrote:

Woodswork Armory wrote: I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Are you referring to the effigy of Günther von Bünau?
Dated 1431
Church, Droyßig, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

Ah! Günther's Buckminsterfullerbrust. What a bizarre thing it is. It would be fun to rough out, but the grinding and polishing would be a nightmare. As far as I can tell, those facets are actually depressed, rather than flat. That's certainly what we see on his knees.

Mac

Yes, the heavy work was why I wasn't going to post it. But if one were to exist, I would likely not be able to resist obtaining it. I love this as a sculpture.

Kerry Pratt wrote:In the end, I suppose it comes down to your ability to sell the item after you make it. As much as I would love to learn from you doing the things that interest me, , I learn something from everything that you do. Go with what you think will help you to make more projects in the future. From a practical point of view, I wouldn't think that the bicoque would have a huge market in the reenactor community but might be desirable within the collector market.

Being able to sell it afterwards is certainly important.

The "mister colander head" helmet would be very satisfying to do, but there are probably only five people in the world who want it. Of those there is probably only one whom it fits, and he's broke. I might yet do it, though. It would be a project with a lot of the same flavor and motivation as the PDB.

Kerry Pratt wrote:Anything Maximillian looks like it would be torture on the hands and elbows with all of the fluting and hammer work involved.

I find fluting to be a fun and joyous process. The problem is the grinding, polishing, and outlining of those flutes. If I could sent it out to some medieval professionals for those processes, it would be a different story.

Mac

Ian L wrote:

Mac wrote:There are a shit-ton of bad ones out there, and very few respectable examples. Even the ones that look OK have some little point that's off. I'm not sure I have ever seen one that used the correct method of joining the central plates.

Kastenbrust are very under-represented while CH13 is very over-represented, but as you say the overwhelming majority of CH13s are mere caricatures of the original object. People are not going to stop making CH13-like-objects anytime soon. Having the 'Mac Treatment' of a CH13 project done right would be invaluable to the community and for the inevitable reproductions that will follow.

I'd really love to see both though! /evillaugh

Do you think a brass-less stripper of the Ch 13 would be useful, or must it have all the trim?

Mac

Chris Gilman wrote:Yes, the heavy work was why I wasn't going to post it. But if one were to exist, I would likely not be able to resist obtaining it. I love this as a sculpture.

It is a lovely object, but I think jousting weight stuff is better suited to young armorers, or ones with helpers and power hammers.

Mac

Chris Gilman wrote:

Woodswork Armory wrote:You know me Mac, I would love to see anything Maximilian related! I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Mac's Max

Absolutely Gorgeous

Mac wrote: Do you think a brass-less stripper of the Ch 13 would be useful, or must it have all the trim?

Mac

Absolutely still useful. The value of showing the proper structure and shape of the overall piece is very much accomplished without the bling.

Xtracted wrote:I personally wants to see you build Philip II bifurcated gauntlets.

But a bicoque could perhaps be fun?

I am ashamed that I did not know that name for these 'great armets' so I looked it up in Blair. Gay has an entry for Bicoquet with a transcription which Blair liked better than the one in the traite du costume militaire from 1446. The 'old' transcription has: "les biquoques sont de faczon à que sur la teste, en telle forme et manière come ancienement les bacinez à camail souloient estre, et d'autre part vers les aureilles viennent joindre aval, en telle forme et faczon comme souloient faire les berniers."

I don't want to ask Mac to work on anything too heavy or too hard to sell either.

Mac wrote:

Tom B. wrote:

Woodswork Armory wrote: I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Are you referring to the effigy of Günther von Bünau?
Dated 1431
Church, Droyßig, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

Ah! Günther's Buckminsterfullerbrust. What a bizarre thing it is. It would be fun to rough out, but the grinding and polishing would be a nightmare. As far as I can tell, those facets are actually depressed, rather than flat. That's certainly what we see on his knees.

Mac

the only other view I could quickly find seems to better show the facets as depressions.

Here are some more ideas or maybe just what would be my shopping list if I had the funds


The Resurrection of Christ 1445/6 Lindenholz


Arm Harness (A79 Vienna)

Tom B. wrote:Here are some more ideas or maybe just what would be my shopping list if I had the funds

That's a nice list!

The enclosed arms might be fun, but probably not right now.

I also have a soft spot for the helmet with the forked beard accommodation. I'm supposing that it rotates on that collar, but the construction is a bit vague.

Mac

Note the externally slotted sliders in the gorget on the Lindenholz helm. That is a detail too wonky for an artist to have made it up. There is also a German effigy with sabatons that show such a thing; wish I could find it in under an hour.

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:Note the externally slotted sliders in the gorget on the Lindenholz helm. That is a detail too wonky for an artist to have made it up. There is also a German effigy with sabatons that show such a thing; wish I could find it in under an hour.

I've been keeping an eye out for external slots. It seems like a Germanic thing from the early 15th C. There are a couple (?) examples of them on kastenbrust faulds. I've just started a Pinterest page. When you find those sabatons, I'll add them to it.

Thanks!
Mac

Tom B. wrote:

Woodswork Armory wrote: I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Are you referring to the effigy of Günther von Bünau?
Dated 1431
Church, Droyßig, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

Nope, but that breast is really cool!

I found something similar to what I mean :

Woodswork Armory wrote:
I found something similar to what I mean :

That's a small armor, but a big project.

Mac

How bout a big branch out. Do something Roman in bronze. The classic breastplate of Caesar Augustus as depicted in so much statuary. I don’t know if it was hardened leather or bronze but I bet it would look great chased into bronze. The hinges at the top suggest it was Metal.

I'd also be a proponent of a kastenbrust--I've yet to see a reproduction that hasn't taken a number of liberties in design. As far as I know, nobody has really attempted later kastenbrusts (1450-65), such as those seen in the altar paintings of Conrad Laib:
The later, more complex forms of helmet usually associated with kastenbrusts--although were infrequently worn with other armors--would be pretty interesting to see reproduced; here are a number of examples: https://imgur.com/a/IpI16PD

How about the foot combat helmet from Thuns?

https://pin.it/nofzbhz7ahfnjx

Xtracted wrote:How about the foot combat helmet from Thuns?

https://pin.it/nofzbhz7ahfnjx

Mac wrote:I have a sort of nagging desire to build something that everybody gets wrong.... like the Churburg 13 breast, or perhaps a kastenbrust that actually looks like the ones in the pics.

Has anyone got an idea about a thing they'd like to see?

Mac

The thing I see about the Churburg 13 is that people make them wrong in part because they don't make the rest of the kit. It should be worn with a separate fauld to protect the lower belly. That means people (specifically SCAdians) tend to wear them as a globose beer-gut protector. If you are going to make the Churburg 13 you are almost obliged to make the fauld portion too to show WHY the armor functions as it does. Maybe base it as an interpretation of the effigy of Konrad von Bichenbock (sp? and memory?) To just make the torso region is like making a visor without a helm or a grandguard without an arm harness.

I'm pre-caffeine so the memory isn't turned on but I'm trying to remember the name of the sallet that is really a close helm. Everyone takes a swing at it (because reenactors like the look of sallets and the protection of close helms) but no one gets it RIGHT. That's a piece that is worth duplicating on its own that people will learn from and I think has a very good market. (Helms usually do because the sizing isn't as varied as torsos)

If you were looking for more obscure ideas you might want to scour the Met and Keinbush collections for ideas. If you had a question about how X and Y looked from a different angle then you are only a short drive with a camera from answering your own question. It would greatly ease the "What distance, height and focal length did the photographer use for this shot?" comparison. Also much better than relying on photos taken by someone else on a different continent.

Sean (eagerly awaiting regular blog posts again)

dr.charlemagne wrote:How bout a big branch out. Do something Roman in bronze. The classic breastplate of Caesar Augustus as depicted in so much statuary. I don’t know if it was hardened leather or bronze but I bet it would look great chased into bronze. The hinges at the top suggest it was Metal.

I built a couple of Etruscan muscled thoraces in steel decades ago, Bronze, is another thing altogether. Real bronze; the bronze of classical armor is unavailable in sheets. Those guys who claim they are making armor in "bronze" are using one of the modern alloys which only resembles it in color. That's a bit like making a shield on "poplar" (Liriodendron tulipifera) because extant shields are identified as poplar (Populus alba) . They are different things with the same name.

There is a lot to be learned about working with real (copper/tin) bronze, but someone else will have to do it.

Mac

krech wrote:I'd also be a proponent of a kastenbrust--I've yet to see a reproduction that hasn't taken a number of liberties in design. As far as I know, nobody has really attempted later kastenbrusts (1450-65), such as those seen in the altar paintings of Conrad Laib:

laib3.jpg

I sometimes wonder if those later kastenbrusts are a real thing or an artistic fantasy. They always seem to show up in Biblical contexts. In any case, it seems like to elaborate a project for this time.

krech wrote:The later, more complex forms of helmet usually associated with kastenbrusts--although were infrequently worn with other armors--would be pretty interesting to see reproduced; here are a number of examples: https://imgur.com/a/IpI16PD

That's a nice collection of images! These helmets would be very well suited to some of the modern/medieval combat forms. I'll keep this in mind for some later project.

Mac

Chris Gilman wrote:

Xtracted wrote:How about the foot combat helmet from Thuns?

https://pin.it/nofzbhz7ahfnjx

That might be fun for another occasion. The shoulder shape is pretty specific, and making it interface correctly with the cuirasse would probably require some modifications to one or another of them.

Mac

looks incredible

Chris Gilman wrote:

Interesting hole placement - so they can hear what's going on around them?

Mac, how about floating elbows? don't think I have seen any good reproductions of them, of course you may aswell do an arm harness then

Woodswork Armory wrote:I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Tom B. wrote:

Woodswork Armory wrote:I was going to post an image of a really cool breastplate I found but I can't seem to find it.. the breastplate has a bunch of raised spots similar to a gauntlet with a raised knuckle piece. That would be cool

Wow! I want to know the story behind this armor, that seems really unique.

Woodswork Armory wrote:
Wow! I want to know the story behind this armor, that seems really unique.

It's weirder than you suspect. The decoration on the gorget doesn't match. There must have been another armor with diamonds to match the gorget.

There are also fragments of another armor with pyramids. I think it may be at the Met.

Mac