The Armour Archive

I have looked high and low, and I cannot find a collection/catalog of images for the Churburg collection, that is still in print?
I'm looking for one book/website, whatever that is a "definitive" image catalog. Surely there has to be something, but I can't find it...

Help me out someone?

I should add that my focus is on construction and design details, not art photos like Paggiarino's.

For instance, where do those B&W images Mac uses in his blog come from?
Trapps book?
Has that book been digitized and made available anywhere?

I think you are right that there is no "comprehensive" catalog which contains as many construction and detail photos as most armorers would like. The original Churburg catalog was Oswald graf Trapp's, which was published in a very limited edition (250 copies?) in 1929. That catalog was reprinted in 1996 with a very useful volume of modern photos and updated research by Mario Scalini. That was also a limited edition (2000 copies) and quite expensive, although the last time I looked Ken Trotman Ltd had a couple of sets available for about half what it cost new. I don't think there has been any more recent publication except for Hans Prunner's, and of course Matthias Goll's thesis. Whatever you want to say about Goll's photography, he provides views which no one else has.

Thanks. You'd think someone would have digitized and released Trapp's book by now.

I haven't seen Goll's thesis before. Downloading it now.

I just got the Hans Prunner volume on Churburg. Lots of really nice pics.

dr.charlemagne wrote:I just got the Hans Prunner volume on Churburg. Lots of really nice pics.

But are they "beautiful armor" pics (it is described as treating armor as art) or useful pics that would help with looking at construction details?

The "new" catalogue is likely still under copyright, so people really should be trying to buy the book. Last I heard it was still available. Not cheap, but available. It contains all of the pictures from the original book and the new volume has a lot of nice pictures.

Are they like the digital catalogue of the Wallace? Nope. But they are definitely worth having as a good outline reference to the items in the collection.

Wade

Also, in Carlo's Churburg book each photo is a lesson on HOW REAL ARMOUR LOOKS. Its not photos of the overall shape and mechanical elements, but "oh wow, the inside of those breaths is still jagged because its never going to touch your face and only the wearer can see them" and "look at how the grinding changes as the miller approached a tricky area." Its a very different approach to most photographers, some people love it, some not so much.

This looks to be the cheapest one on the market at the moment.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDe ... 1-_-title3

The next one is noticeable more.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDe ... _sr=impact

Mac

Ken Trotman has two copies apparently, at GBP 250, which is USD 327.50.
https://kentrotman.co.uk/usedbooks/the- ... -churburg/

I don't know how up-to-date their website is, of course.

I'd like to buy one of the Trotman books, but I haven't mustered the courage yet today to spend 250 GBP on a book I've never seen before. I've not seen the original either. So I'm left interested, but wondering what I really get for that much money.

Cavpilot2000 wrote:..... but wondering what I really get for that much money.

Let's look at this a different way. What do you hope to get?

We've been trying to answer the question of how to get you the Churburg catalog, but not addressing whether that's really what you want or need.

Mac

I don't know where you are... but there may be someone near you with a copy.
I have one... I expect that several of us do.

Building up a library of reference material is one step in building a knowledge base.

Wade

Trying to get a solid understanding of the styles and construction deigns of late 14th c armor. There are tons of examples and lots of information on later (15th c) plate, but not much else that I am aware of besides the Churburg collection that documents the transitional plate period.

Also, to be able to know which is #13 vs. #16 when referenced (as an example - I want to know which ones are which). I see them referenced by number all the time, and there is no "key". I assume the numbers come from the original book?

Cavpilot2000 wrote:Trying to get a solid understanding of the styles and construction deigns of late 14th c armor. There are tons of examples and lots of information on later (15th c) plate, but not much else that I am aware of besides the Churburg collection that documents the transitional plate period.

Also, to be able to know which is #13 vs. #16 when referenced (as an example - I want to know which ones are which). I see them referenced by number all the time, and there is no "key". I assume the numbers come from the original book?

My guess is that you will not find the Churburg catalog has enough bang for you buck. The bulk of the material in Churburg is 15the and 16th C. Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent book, and you may want to get one eventually, but it's probably not what you really need to get started.

There is a tremendous amount of information on the web these days. Have you begun collecting images? Pinterest is a great resource. Check out the boards of the more knowledgeable enthusiast. If you have any question about whether an image is of a real thing of a modern interpretation, I will be glad to help.

Here are some good places to start.

https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xi ... rotection/
https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xi ... m-harness/
https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xivth-century/
https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xi ... g-harness/
https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xi ... bascinets/
https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xi ... eat-helms/
https://www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/seg ... eastplate/
https://www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/bri ... fragments/
https://www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/lat ... astplates/
https://www.pinterest.com/Zanetto/churburg-armour/
https://www.pinterest.com/knyghterrant/ ... rotection/

Mac

I was lucky enough to snag a good long look at the old catalog through interlibrary loan, and have a look at the new one, and I do not like the new 'reprint' in the least. The new one is only good for the new photos. The old version was done with a special photographic process that gave it remarkably high resolution for photographic work, which the reprint failed utterly to achieve. Alas, the Archive has a very limited size for image posting. If the old catalog is out of copyright, I or someone should figure out a way to post the images somewhere; I did a lot of scanning. The profile shots of the classic C 13 breastplate and the helms are bigger than life size. This is a cropped example that shows part of the photo.

I think the original 1929 catalog had photos printed with the photogravure process, which is definitely superior, even to the best modern half-tone printing, but it's extremely labor intensive - each plate needs to be inked, wiped and printed by hand, like an etching. It was used for expensive, limited edition art books - the Churburg catalog cetainly is one - but I doubt any publisher uses it any more. It would be an invauable resource if you could find a way to make your hi res scans available!

Maybe I will look into an inter-library loan.
I just picked up a new copy of ToMAR and Toby Capwell's English Knight 1400-1450.
Building a library.

Cavpilot2000 wrote:Maybe I will look into an inter-library loan.

That's an excellent idea!

Cavpilot2000 wrote:... and Toby Capwell's English Knight 1400-1450.
Building a library.

This is a good book to have.

Mac

Mac wrote: My guess is that you will not find the Churburg catalog has enough bang for you buck. The bulk of the material in Churburg is 15the and 16th C. Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent book, and you may want to get one eventually, but it's probably not what you really need to get started.

If you have any question about whether an image is of a real thing of a modern interpretation, I will be glad to help.

Mac

Thanks for the info! I'll definitely start with the library route to see the book(s).

One particular area of interest for me is the development of tassets. I.e. when did they begin to appear?
It seems clear that faulds developed first, since usually we see tassets attached to the faulds as an extension of the paunce, but I've seen harnesses (I can't point to a specific one off the top of my head) where tassets are hung directly from a breastplate/ cuirass, but IIRC these are later examples (with appropriately large tassets). When were the first examples of tassets attached directly to breastplates?
I wonder if those are modern misinterpretations.

Anyway, it's something I am researching.

Mac wrote:Have you begun collecting images?

I have.
Also my girlfriend is German, and we visit her family almost every year. While there on different trips I have been able to go to some amazing museums and armories (Coburg, Vienna, etc) and have taken hundreds of pics of some beautiful armor. Usually they are on display so I haven't been able to see the back sides of pieces for construction detail, but I've taken lots of close-up pics of articulations and parts.