Burgonet build (rough shaping done, crest refining next)

[Kristoffer]

I am going to build a couple of more burgonets for the SCA and have scrapped all my previous work and is now back to the drawing table.

I am trying to be a good boy and do this properly so I was hoping that I could post what I do here for you fine gentlepeople to critique so I can improve and do better.

Feel free to give me your worst, I can take it.

So, here are my sketches so far. They are still missing a lot of details but I am trying to get all the outlines in place before I start messing with the smaller stuff.

The idea is that the helmet has armet cheeks that lock by pushing down the bar in the front through loops that are connected close to eachother on each cheek. This is an adaptation to make the face more structural based on the originals that mostly just has a bar in the middle. For material, I am thinking 2mm for the skull, 1.5mm for neck lames and some forged stock for bar and bar holders, everything in C45, hardened and tempered. Construction wise it will be the House method mostly.

I am currently struggling with getting the sketches of the neck lames worked out. I am having trouble getting the front and back perspective in order.

Well, we have to start somewhere so lets hear what I am doing wrong.

(I am adding a link to the image in larger quality below the embedded image)



https://photos.app.goo.gl/eF6zmRdcGE9Mxee98

[Indianer]

I am sorry for even asking this. But is there a sketch of your head? Sth. you can overlay the helmet with?

[Johann ColdIron]

I am sorry for even asking this. But is there a sketch of your head? Sth. you can overlay the helmet with?

Picture a rather large, round, melon...

Nice drawing Kristopher!

Do you think sliding the center bar will be easier than a center sneck hook when the Marshall calls lay on? You will likely have to center the two cheeks with one hand and then thread the Needle with the other.

I'd find a way to make it captive so you can't drop the bar in tall grass at GO time. Also the tempered bar is only as strong as it's mounts so consider tempering the loops as well.

[Mac]

I've got a couple of first impressions, but I'd like to see some pics of the helmet or helmets you are working from before I open my mouth and put my foot in it. I recognize the type, and I'm pretty sure that there are three or four of them out there, but I was only able to get a good side viewof the one in Philly.





Also... like Indy, I'd like to see where your head fits in here. Sure, I know pretty much what heads look like, but I'd like to see what you are working with; just for the sake of completeness.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Here is the handsome victims head.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/p4mbgbj1vjcwydkf6

[Kristoffer]

Do you think sliding the center bar will be easier than a center sneck hook when the Marshall calls lay on? You will likely have to center the two cheeks with one hand and then thread the Needle with the other.

I'd find a way to make it captive so you can't drop the bar in tall grass at GO time. Also the tempered bar is only as strong as it's mounts so consider tempering the loops as well.

I will probably have a hook that you connect the cheeks with first to allow everything to stay in place and be aligned. The bars main function will be to allow the cheeks to support eachother and the original has a bar like it. But you are right in that I want to make it so that it cannot just fall out through the top if you fall backwards. I will engineer something here that works nicely.

[Kristoffer]

I must shamefully admit that I am not working from one original purely but I have been forced to puzzle a bit with details because of weak moments in my past when I didn't know better and SCA fighters scare of tall combs and such.

Most of it is borrowed from this fellow. Unfortunately I have not been able to get any really, reallt good pictures of it so I have done what I could with what I had.




https://photos.app.goo.gl/LdnsdzovGTYvHTeE7

[Mac]

OK.. So, here are my thoughts, so far....

--My first impression is that the helmet should be rotated forward a bit. Not much, only a couple of degrees. I'd like to see the openings for the eyes be a bit closer to horizontal.

--That rotation will have the effect of raising the neck in back, which is good. I think it could come up 1/4" or so (6 or 8mm)

--You need more height in the middle of the skull. If the helmet were very "round" and "head shaped", you could get away with what you have, but your front/back view shows what you are intending a more "vaulted" sort of crown. If you put a head tracing into that view you will see that it's a bit tight a few cm. on either side of center.

--The neck line need not be a flat plane. It can and (probably should) rise up a bit on the sides, where the cheek pieces overlap the skull. This will get the pivots a bit higher and that will help the rear neck lames articulate.

--The line of the rear neck lames need not flare out so much. Our example from Philly shows what is perhaps a typical line. It flares out enough to clear the gorget hem, and then gradually changes its angle to fall more closely to the back of the neck.

--I think you would do well to give yourself more nose room. To keep the curve of the side view looking right, you may have to make the chin come out more. That's OK, since the chin will be narrow and having a lot of room there in the side view will look fine when it's in three dimensions.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I started a pinterest board where I can save the pictures I have of this kind of helmets because of all the work I have to do to get one picture in a post here from google photos.

https://pin.it/ehnl676p4jpgic

[Mac]

I must shamefully admit that I am not working from one original purely but I have been forced to puzzle a bit with details because of weak moments in my past when I didn't know better and SCA fighters scare of tall combs and such.

Yea... all the modern fighting guys are afraid of tall helmets, and the SCAjuns are probably the worst about them. Just look at their "bascinets", and don't even get me started on the "sugar loafs".

Most of it is borrowed from this fellow. Unfortunately I have not been able to get any really, reallt good pictures of it so I have done what I could with what I had.




https://photos.app.goo.gl/LdnsdzovGTYvHTeE7

That's the one in Graz, yes? I may have something in a book. You might also see if Wade or Tom B have pics they are willing to share.

Mac

(edited for spelling)

[Mac]

I started a pinterest board where I can save the pictures I have of this kind of helmets because of all the work I have to do to get one picture in a post here from google photos.

https://pin.it/ehnl676p4jpgic

Good plan! Pinterest images almost always post here without any fuss.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

This is the best I could find. And I have been asking around. Yes, its the one in Graz.

https://pin.it/icj74afmshcar4

[Mac]

That's the one in Graz, yes? I may have something in a book. You might also see if Wade or Tom B have pics they are willing to share.

Mac

There is a front view in the little Graz guide book, but no side view. I'm pretty sure this helmet is also in the catalog of the traveling exhibit, but I can't find that on my shelves. I'll resume the search later.

Mac

[Mac]

This is the best I could find. And I have been asking around. Yes, its the one in Graz.

https://pin.it/icj74afmshcar4

For what it's worth; I think this is shown at a very convincing "wearing angle". If we had a side view of the same, it would be easy to compare that to your sketches.



Mac

[Kristoffer]

Ok, I erased a lot, added the head to the sketch and redid the outlines roughly to try to please Mac.




https://photos.app.goo.gl/4fh41iRfN74xKhki9

[Mac]

I like those changes pretty much.

Are you ready for round 2?

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I like those changes pretty much.

Are you ready for round 2?

Mac

I am ready!

What do you want me to do?

[Sean Powell]

Hmmm I see 2 (3?) issues related to the mechanism of the front center bar.

I think you want a leaf spring or similar to hold the bar down as some wise-ass is gonna try and spear-thrust to the top and open it up as a challenge.
I'm also concerned that for that length unsupported except at top and bottom that it might bend if someone is excessive... but at least it can be removed. Flip side if you support it at 3 places it's more durable but if someone is excessive enough and bends the bar there is going to be a great amount of laughter as stick-joks try to hammer the bar out with a basket hilt. If you leave the gaps lose enough for easy removal then the bar isn't holding everything tight.

Might want to think on the design a bit. It's a REALLY COOL and I presume medieval solution but it has some sport considerations. (and put the high comb on it anyway! The people who whine about glancing surfaces aren't in the market for a burgonet anyway)

Sean

[Johann ColdIron]

That's the one in Graz, yes? I may have something in a book. You might also see if Wade or Tom B have pics they are willing to share.

Mac

There is a front view in the little Graz guide book, but no side view. I'm pretty sure this helmet is also in the catalog of the traveling exhibit, but I can't find that on my shelves. I'll resume the search later.

Mac

It is but the image is the same as the one earlier in the thread with the arm harness.

I'm paging through Shiny Shapes now. EDIT: it is not in there at all.

[Johann ColdIron]

Are we sure those two helmets are the same? They appear to be sporting two different nasal bars.

One is flattened and perforated towards the bottom and the other v shaped with a notch

[Mac]

I like those changes pretty much.

Are you ready for round 2?

Mac

I am ready!

What do you want me to do?

Alrighty!

---The change to the curve of the crown of the skull was in the right direction , but I think a bit more of the same would help to make it "pop". There is a sort of a flat spot about 2" (50mm) behind the vertical. I would begin by bringing that up to make the curve nice and graceful, and then (perhaps) raise the whole curve another 1/4" (6mm) ; keeping the front and back where they are.

--The crest line will (of course) need to be changed to account for changes to the line of the crown. I like to try to isolate each of these lines in my headm and make sure that they are both "fair" in their own right, and than look at them both together to make sure the whole thing is pleasing.

--You have shown the neck transition as a curved line, both front and back. All of the examples seem to have it as a sharp, angular transition. I think I would go with the examples here.

--At the point where the chin transitions into the neck flange, you have a sort of "jog" up. I would smooth out that line in favor of adding that little bit of volume to the inside of the helmet. We are only talking about a couple of mm here, so the volume is not much, but the visual effect will be big.

--As you are thinking about that transition into the neck flare in back, have a look again at that side view from Philly. See how the angle relates to the pivot placement. You will need to get some motion out of those lames, and this is the time to think that through.

--It may not hurt to sketch in the position of the upper lame of the gorget as part of the head tracing. This will help you make sure you are planning enough room for it.... but not too much. It will get weird in the front/back view, so be prepared wrap your brain around it. It's good exercise.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Hmmm I see 2 (3?) issues related to the mechanism of the front center bar.

I think you want a leaf spring or similar to hold the bar down as some wise-ass is gonna try and spear-thrust to the top and open it up as a challenge.
I'm also concerned that for that length unsupported except at top and bottom that it might bend if someone is excessive... but at least it can be removed. Flip side if you support it at 3 places it's more durable but if someone is excessive enough and bends the bar there is going to be a great amount of laughter as stick-joks try to hammer the bar out with a basket hilt. If you leave the gaps lose enough for easy removal then the bar isn't holding everything tight.

Might want to think on the design a bit. It's a REALLY COOL and I presume medieval solution but it has some sport considerations. (and put the high comb on it anyway! The people who whine about glancing surfaces aren't in the market for a burgonet anyway)

Sean

The idea is that the bar goes through two supports in the top, one above the cap and one in the cap itself, then one in the middle of the face and one in the chin. The bar will be made of pretty massive stuff and be hardened and tempered together with the supports and the rest of the helmet. I expect it to hold up very well from rattan abuse. A locking mechanism will be worked out.. soon..

I have to build three helmets with silly combs unfortunately, I am atoning for sins of the past. Once my slate is clean, I will have to make a proper one for myself.

[Kristoffer]

Okay, here we go. There is a lot of lines going on at the neck now but I am using some filters on the photos to make things stick out more clearly.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/jup6RjqqhXB6juWE6

[Mac]

I like that pretty much!

How do you feel about it?

What are you going to do at the temples; where the cheek pieces interact with the brim?

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I like that pretty much!

How do you feel about it?

What are you going to do at the temples; where the cheek pieces interact with the brim?

Mac

My random thoughts are:

I want to flatten out the top of the brim a bit to better match the Graz one. This also close up the opening around the eyes, making it easier to keep it less than 25mm.

I made it a two neck lame neck since I really could not fit three withour making them tiny. I am not sure if it is worth doing three. Maybe if it was for a person with a longer neck. A question here is that if it was intended for someone with a longer neck, would I do any other adjustments then to just make the lamed section taller? Would I adjust the neck line of the skull anything?

I want to draw in the full comb on it to get a better idea of how it is supposed to look.

The idea for the cheeks at the temples is to stretch a ridge in the cheeks so they go over the end of the brim like on the original I guess. Or?

I might want to look again at the face and adjust it slightly. I have feelings about it that I not yet know what they are.

I want to look more at the edge lines and angles for the cheeks. There are lines that are more appealing then others and I always find myself struggling to find a good balance between staying true to a piece and trying to make it sexier.. and I kinda want to make the hinges a bit more robust then the originals usually are and this messes with the dimensions of the cheek plates..

Once I have the side view in order, I need to adjust the front and back to match. I also need to work out the fluff with the bar and locking mechanism and such once the base shape is set.

[Mac]

My random thoughts are:

I want to flatten out the top of the brim a bit to better match the Graz one. This also close up the opening around the eyes, making it easier to keep it less than 25mm.

An easy and adaptable solution might be to plan to install an internal plate that defined the upper edge of the the sight. It would be pretty discrete, and you will already have rivets in the right location to mount it.

I made it a two neck lame neck since I really could not fit three withour making them tiny. I am not sure if it is worth doing three. Maybe if it was for a person with a longer neck. A question here is that if it was intended for someone with a longer neck, would I do any other adjustments then to just make the lamed section taller? Would I adjust the neck line of the skull anything?

As far as I can tell, the upper edge of the gorget is in the right location vis-a-vis the neck of the helmet. If you only have room for two lames, then that's the number you need. If it were me, I would try to fit in three narrow ones, and when that didn't work, I'd curse my stars and fall back to two.

I want to draw in the full comb on it to get a better idea of how it is supposed to look.

Good plan. I'd also suggest looking around for a short combed example (even if it's from a different sort of helmet) to see if there is anything to be learned from that.

The idea for the cheeks at the temples is to stretch a ridge in the cheeks so they go over the end of the brim like on the original I guess. Or?

What you describe is certainly the best way, and the way it is done on nice helmets. There are cheep helmets that just have a notch for the brim. If you contemplated that, you would need to adjust the proportions of the relevant part of the cheek to avoid having a weak and easily bent place.

I might want to look again at the face and adjust it slightly. I have feelings about it that I not yet know what they are.

The shape of the face will need to be worked out in both views to really get a handle on it.

I want to look more at the edge lines and angles for the cheeks. There are lines that are more appealing then others and I always find myself struggling to find a good balance between staying true to a piece and trying to make it sexier.. and I kinda want to make the hinges a bit more robust then the originals usually are and this messes with the dimensions of the cheek plates..

Nothing is more sexy than making it exactly the way they would have.

If the hinges seem too light for the job, you can make them out of thicker stuff and gain strength without changing the lines.

Once I have the side view in order, I need to adjust the front and back to match. I also need to work out the fluff with the bar and locking mechanism and such once the base shape is set.

I keep trying to think of ways to make the bar captive without loosing strength of having obtrusive components. My latest thought is to have a shallow slot running down the upper half of the inside of the bar. There would be a spring pin that engaged the slot; and when the bar wall fully down, the pin would run up a ramp at the end of the slot and then pop into a blind hole to lock the bar. The pin, spring, and actuating button could be mounted on the inside of that brow plate I mentioned above. The button would be shielded from trouble (and from view) by the brim, but would be pretty easy to actuate with an un-gauntleted hand.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Are we sure those two helmets are the same? They appear to be sporting two different nasal bars.

One is flattened and perforated towards the bottom and the other v shaped with a notch

They are the same, I am pretty sure. The bar I think has a triangular cross section and the holes in the bottom are on the right side wich is faced away from us in the other picture. I am imagining it is made from a piece of sheet that has a folded line in the center turning i to a triangular gutter, sort of.

[Kristoffer]

I have been trying to look at the hinge and I think my position and angle and such is not too bad. It does however look like there is a number of small lines along the side of the hinge. I wonder if it is the edge of the plate next to the hinge that has a lot of file marks like a serrated edge or if it sticks out to protect the hinge from bring damaged by a strike?
I wish there were better pictures of this helmet somewhere..

[Kristoffer]

I did some late night sketching for fun, added some details, fudged with some minor things, nothing super serious. Tomorrow I will clean everything up and do some serious sketching.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/aAZdMRr9HTLV6KeW9

[John Vernier]

I wonder if it is the edge of the plate next to the hinge that has a lot of file marks like a serrated edge or if it sticks out to protect the hinge from bring damaged by a strike?

That does seem to be what's going on on the Peffenhauser burgonet at Philadelphia - the edge of the plate is flanged out over the hinge, and it is decorated with file marks.

[Mac]

The idea for the cheeks at the temples is to stretch a ridge in the cheeks so they go over the end of the brim like on the original I guess. Or?

What you describe is certainly the best way, and the way it is done on nice helmets. There are cheep helmets that just have a notch for the brim. If you contemplated that, you would need to adjust the proportions of the relevant part of the cheek to avoid having a weak and easily bent place.

Much to my surprise, the Philly helmet seems to have been done the cheep way
This link will take you to a page where you can see, and download, several views and details. The bar with the image choices seems to want to hide under the museum's header, and you may have to scroll all the way up to expose it. I will not use expressions like "poor web design", because I am ignorant of these things.


Mac

[Kristoffer]

That does seem to be what's going on on the Peffenhauser burgonet at Philadelphia - the edge of the plate is flanged out over the hinge, and it is decorated with file marks.

You are so right! Excellent, good catch!

[Kristoffer]

Much to my surprise, the Philly helmet seems to have been done the cheep way

Mac

It seems so.. Who can you trust when even Anton cheaps out like that.. thats almost like if Lorenz would rivet leather straps inside knee cops to stop them from popping out..

[Sean M]

The Royal Armouries also have a 'brimmed close helmet' with a barred visor, number IV.166 or European Armour in the Tower of London pl. CVI. And the red Graz catalogue has a side view of another close burgonet from the same great garniture of Kaspar Baron Völs-Schenkenberg.

Would these solutions let you save money relative to a full visor or a falling buffe, or just let the wearer breathe and see better?

[Kristoffer]

I believe they are just like a barbute. A bit more face protection than just a regular burgonet but better visibility and air circulation than a full visor.

The more expensive ones seem to be parts of garnitures that has several other helmets. I believe the Graz one has a brother with the characteristic spiked bar face.