Burgonet build (rough shaping done, crest refining next)

[Mac]

There's a nice photo essay here, which shows a two lame collar all disassembled, and then put put back together with fresh leather.

The side view is a pretty good example of what this type of gorget should look like. The front is different than where you are headed, but the back should be pretty similar.



Mac

[wcallen]

The gorget Mac posted just above isn't the most elegant ever made, but it has lots of the good ideas.
Looking at it in the back, I do see a very typical line. Emulate it.

I think I am about to agree with Mac, but say it differently.
Your drawing from the side shows a lower main back plate that kicks out at the top to flow into the neck plates.
Don't do it. That idea leads to one of the most common gorget errors I see a lot in modern stuff. People flair a line around the front plate and the back plate and then build from there. The general idea for the very center of the back is to have NO change in line. The plates flow straight up from the body of the main plate.

Look back at the one Mac posted, you will see that idea.
Also here:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-127.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-25.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-114c.html

And I bet I am a little off of straight so it would also be true here:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-292.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-245.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-247.html

Wade

[wcallen]

Yup, I took a straight edge to a couple of the gorgets I own where the back looks like it might sweep out at the top of the main back plate.

They don't.

All of the center back lines represent some form of very shallow curve from the bottom to the top. There is no sweep back out at the top. This shape will look right and it will also have the benefit of getting off of the annoying C7 Mac is worried about.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

I was looking at this fellow when I did my sketch and it appears it does just that. I have been decieved. I assume what looks like a change in curve is actually the horizon of a bit of back boob? This really, really helps with the understanding of the geometry of the back plate. We were talking about how the backplates should be made to emulate a sort of forward crouching thing, it simplifies to think of the backplate and gorget as one piece following the same curve of the upper back.

http://allenantiques.com/images/A-201-a-pin-side.jpg

These guys show the same thing more or less.

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-292.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-245.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-247.html

I am also noticing we are really missing top view pictures of the gorgets that would leave clues to this geometry.. nudge nudge..

[Kristoffer]

Okay, take three.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/zdhbbGdxm1zVwXfAA

[wcallen]

I was looking at this fellow when I did my sketch and it appears it does just that. I have been decieved. I assume what looks like a change in curve is actually the horizon of a bit of back boob? This really, really helps with the understanding of the geometry of the back plate. We were talking about how the backplates should be made to emulate a sort of forward crouching thing, it simplifies to think of the backplate and gorget as one piece following the same curve of the upper back.

http://allenantiques.com/images/A-201-a-pin-side.jpg

These guys show the same thing more or less.

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-292.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-245.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-247.html

I am also noticing we are really missing top view pictures of the gorgets that would leave clues to this geometry.. nudge nudge..

Nudge, Nudge.
This one at least has a bottom view which is pretty straight on:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-25.html
This one does too:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-252.html
It looks like the last set of nudging from someone got me to take a top view of this one:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-201.html
That view shows how hard it is to get something that actually shows things without a lot of foreshortening. It shows the top ring reasonably, but things get lost in perspective after that.

It does seem views from the top have not been my strong suit.

And...

It is easy to take an image that is almost directly on the side, but since I am often pretty close, things get in the way of the straight center line.

Annoyingly, most of those are on part armours so I have to take things apart to get more pictures. At some point I need to have some help and do a re-shoot of a bunch of interesting pieces. Care for a visit?

Wade

[Kristoffer]

Absolutely! I have a leg that eventually will want to see more of the world.

I have been thinking of making one of those rotational thingies that let you rotate a piece and keep the camera in one spot. Apparently, that is sort of what the swedish royal armoury did to do their 3D "scans". Just a whole bunch of pictures that gets mapped together into a 3D image. I need to read up on this since it allows you to do 3D scans without paying a whole lot of money for expensive equipment..

[wcallen]

I tried to take some quick informative shots.
Lighting is lousy and I can't get in the right place to hold the ruler and the camera and see through the viewfinder and get a decent image. I need 4 hands and custom lighting and mounts and a long lens...

Arghhhhh.

Wade

[Sean M]

you see modern armorers most often error is rooted in the planning and drawing stages and that you frequently find the same errors in sketchbooks as in the armor.

Peter Johnsson, who is *gasp* a sword person, notices the same thing:

The sword is a remarkable object in that it's so strong in our awareness, we have such a strong idea of what the sword is, that it overshadows what the sword actually is, so the sword in your mind tends to overlap the sword that's actually there and and inform your understanding of that sword to the degree that what you actually are fed back has very little to do with the sword you see in front of you. This is really an interesting process because you have an idea of what is a Viking, what is the knight, what is a crusader, what was the medieval period, what what was their mindset, what what did they cherish, what was their sort of goals and ideas.

- Peter Johansson, "The Viking Sword: What it Was and What it Was Not." Belgian Knife Society, Gembloux, 2017 time 1:15 https://youtu.be/1nNcn04LA2Y?t=75

He is a big believer in sketches and technical drawings too. He has found contracts from 16th centry Milan where apprentice cutlers are promised a certain amount of instruction in drawing every week. I hope he can finish his book.

[Kristoffer]

Peter is very skilled. He has an amazing sword art show in NY right now. If anyone is close to that I can recommend a visit.

I revised the side view and did the front and back. I tried putting in some details on the shoulder but it became very messy real fast so I am missing Macs point here.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/feFvKUx6E5iRQRBeA

[Mac]

I revised the side view and did the front and back. I tried putting in some details on the shoulder but it became very messy real fast so I am missing Macs point here.

At this point, you have enough of the gorget set out that you can return to the helmet.

It would be nice to establish the outlines of the main plates, but doing so would force you to make decisions about the breast and back. That would bog the helmet project down unnecessarily. Realistically, the the collar rings and the main plates can be thought of separately, and the exact shape of the main plates can be deferred until you are ready to build the gorget. Now.. that said, it is best to build the gorget before actually building the helmet, but that can wait. You can design the helmet with what you have here.

The "exercise" I spoke of earlier is about establishing the line where the front main plate overlaps the back main plate in the front view. We can see where it is in the side view, and and it placement seem OK. We can also see that where the line reaches the shoulder edge it is not at the highest point of the shoulder curve; and this is correct as well. That all tells us that the line should be visible in the front view. Now, that's probably not how it will appear in a photo, because a photo is a perspective; but this is a projection, so it should be represented. As I said above, though, it's not really necessary to continue the helmet design.... unless you are obsessive

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Oh, of course, when you put it that way. This makes me think of this old classic game.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Wanna_Be_the_Guy

I have been focused on the side line of the collar being the "center line" that separates the front and back view. When going from vertical to horizontal, of course things change and things will stick up over the horizon. I have been so focused on the line being a curtain separating the views that I have missed this whole concept. Duh

This is all very obvious. My limited experience bouncing thoughts between the 2D and the 3D world is making this harder then it really is. This is very good practice.

I am very obsessive but I have been battling this heavily for around ten years because of the impact is has on productivity. I consider myself obsessive productive these days. Most of the time.

[Mac]

.

I am very obsessive but I have been battling this heavily for around ten years because of the impact is has on productivity. I consider myself obsessive productive these days. Most of the time.

Mea culpa I didn't mean to strike a nerve.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Mea culpa I didn't mean to strike a nerve.

Mac

God no, I have few such nerves. I hope I am rather aware of most of my major flaws and weaknesses and I try to embrace them when I am not working on polishing them down. I have very little prestige in these things.

Also, if I want to be able to poke other people for their flaws, I must be ok with others poking mine. It is only fair. And I enjoy a good poking.

Edit: and I am not sure how what I wrote was interpreted? I am not too good at this nuances in english thing. Its hard for us with other native tounges.

[Kristoffer]

I have been slowed down a lot for a couple of days now since my life is slowly being drained away by a mancold, and we all know that mancolds are 100% lethal except for those who survive them.

https://youtu.be/VbmbMSrsZVQ

I transferred my head sketches to fresh paper. That allowed me to use the old ones as cutouts to compare to my old helmet sketch. There are several issues here. One is my fat neck, another is my slightly forward neck position and then my high shoulders. A positive thing is that I have a feeling it will be easier to create space in front of the face and nose.
I will probably just start the helmet sketch from scratch around my head sketch.

The most tricky issue now I think is how the upper gorget edge interacts with the helmet and what space is needed where for satisfying functionality and what space that is too much.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/Pp9uYKV7NDxobrxT8

[Kristoffer]

Here is a little trick I like to play with that can be useful although it has its limitations.

I have an android smartphone and a google chromecast for my TV. This allows me to mirror my smartphone screen to the TV. On the phone you can easily scale an image up and down, rotate it, mirror it and so on. This is pretty much just like if you would work in an image editing software on your computer but it becomes sort of an interface between analogue paper stuff and digital stuff.

My TV is big enough to fit a whole breast with fauld and everything and i can tape a piece of paper to it and trace from it if I want to.

Photos have massive limitations of course, but there is a lot of power in using these tools if you do it right. I am currently getting equipment that allows me to digitalize all my sketches and patterns and everything and have it all easily line traced and vectorized. I am also getting a plotter printer that allows me to print on full size paper rolls and a lot of other neat functions.

A sidestep, but I like the tools technology is providing us with.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/fTZ15WkqxCqEJC6c8

[Kristoffer]

I did a new helmet sketch, here it is with the head cutout placed on top. I made marks in my sketch that makes sure I place the head at the same location every time to avoid issues.

Oh, and it instantly becomes obvious why you want to have the gorget, breast and back planned and sketched out as soon as you start sketching in the neck lames. You want them to gracefully interact with the upper rolls of the breast and backplate and have the curves of the pieces compliment eachother. So no real energy will be put into the neck lames at this stage.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/N3AyusBSJSLhhGRm7

[Mac]

The change in head profiles does seem to mess with the original drawing.



You are right to begin by lining up the eye-height. If this were a more open faced helmet, there would be more question about where that is, but these cheek pieces give us lower limits to the eyes.

Mac

[Mac]

What a bizarre technology! Sometimes I think the world is passing my by.. other times I am sure of it.



This is probably not a bad "authentic fit". It's a bit close to the occiput for modern use, and there is also a close approach to the forehead, about three fingers above the brow. Both of these are easy to fudge a bit without doing violence to the overall line of the helmet.

It's interesting to see that it looks like the rim of the collar will end up inside the neck line under the chin. I was suspecting that this would be the case. I have to admit that I have not been down this path before, but I think it's workable. The "tricky" spots between the corners of the jaw and the chin. This is where the rim of the collar will have to make the transition from outside the helmet to inside the helmet.

If that turns out to be impossible, the fallback is a shorter (perhaps two lame) collar. We are in an area of armor interface where few have ventures in hundreds of years. It may well be the case that back in the day "everybody knew" that you needed a short collar for helmets with neck lames and a tall one for helmets with locking rims.

One thing that is clear, though, is that the rim of the collar is supposed to be below the neck line of the helmet in the back. Many helmets of this time have a peculiar bumping out of the neck lames in back which can be for no other thing. If they didn't need the room for the collar, they would have run a straighter line in back.

Mac

[Mac]

This looks a bit roomy to me, but it's within fudging distance of where you need to be.



I think I would try rotating the helmet forward just a bit to get the back of the neckline above the collar rim. Otherwise that "kick out" and convexity or the back neck lames is sort of "unemployed". Any such rotation has to continue to respect the eye line, of course. I might or might not try shrinking it all down a percent or two... I'm not sure.

You might pull the chin and face in a bit, and this would help with that issue of allowing the nasal bar to slide up along an arc without fouling against the comb.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

It's interesting to see that it looks like the rim of the collar will end up inside the neck line under the chin. I was suspecting that this would be the case. I have to admit that I have not been down this path before, but I think it's workable. The "tricky" spots between the corners of the jaw and the chin. This is where the rim of the collar will have to make the transition from outside the helmet to inside the helmet.

If that turns out to be impossible, the fallback is a shorter (perhaps two lame) collar. We are in an area of armor interface where few have ventures in hundreds of years. It may well be the case that back in the day "everybody knew" that you needed a short collar for helmets with neck lames and a tall one for helmets with locking rims.

One thing that is clear, though, is that the rim of the collar is supposed to be below the neck line of the helmet in the back. Many helmets of this time have a peculiar bumping out of the neck lames in back which can be for no other thing. If they didn't need the room for the collar, they would have run a straighter line in back.

Mac

Hmm, this is interesting. It does feel like a good idea to have the front going below the collar if the collar takes up force rather then having the edges of the neck opening on the helmet jam into the throat and neck.

Having a short collar would however remove the need for the peculiar bumping I guess so I think we have something here.

Only one way to find out I guess..

[Mac]

A thing that we see a lot in helmets is where the neck line is not a straight line in side view. Here is a link to a closed helmet with a falling buff in the Met. The line takes a kink at the sides, and the skull looks like it's parallel to the collar, and the bevor looks like it's at a steeper angle. This sort of neck line suggests that the rim of the collar ends up within the chin of the helmet.



Again, it's a thing that really needs testing in three dimensions. I wish I could say "oh yea.. I've done this many times", but I can't.

Mac

[Mac]

I'm having trouble finding images that will post here, but this link will get you to a Peffenhauser armor at the RA. Fish around till you find the side view of the helmet.

Anton P was really big on the abrupt kick-out over the back of the collar rim. I will not call it ugly, but I used to think so... Let's say that it's an acquired taste. You can see that the flare continues to look like it will sit over the collar rim until just before the chin. There, the neck line takes a little dip as it extends out into a crest under chin.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I will play a bit digitally with some of these helmets. It might show something interesting.

Just pointing out that the spikey faced helmet I am using as a side reference does not have a "kick out" in the neck. It seems like it is supported on the neck lames when the picture is taken so the lames are pushed up. In case you are seeing something else.

[Kristoffer]

After some shuffling things around I ended up here. I am thinking that maybe I made the throat in front of the collar slightly too tight but I dont know. The neck looks like it should work fine but perhaps it should snug in towards the gorget more at the lower edge?

To allow nose space, I have the chin forward more then spikey-face. I also have some more room at the tight spots in the forehead and, what was the word, occiput, compared to SF. I am expecting the T faced helmet to have a different geometry in chin, face and forehead to allow the bar to work. SF is kinda rounded and gives more space to the face.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/pEC5dVw2ivbXabnTA

[Mac]

After some shuffling things around I ended up here.

This is looking pretty good!

I am thinking that maybe I made the throat in front of the collar slightly too tight but I dont know. The neck looks like it should work fine but perhaps it should snug in towards the gorget more at the lower edge?

Yea. The front neck lames seem to be starting a bit too close to the collar, and ending too close to the breastplate. If you started them a bit farther out, and maybe changed the angle a bit to allow them to stand clear of the neck hem on the breast. If that makes the chin look "week" you can always push it out a bit.

To allow nose space, I have the chin forward more then spikey-face.

The nose room looks good.

I also have some more room at the tight spots in the forehead and, what was the word, occiput, compared to SF.

The forehead space looks OK. I think the space at the occiput is minimal, but OK. Now, that said, you have slightly less space at the occiput than you do at the neck. You may want to adjust that. After all, the occipital space is space between helmet and skull, the neck space is space between helmet and heavy muscle. They tended to cut the neck space pretty close, and that's why they needed to step the flare out over the collar.

If you don't want to cut the neck space that close, you might reduce the flare in back and let the lames fall more or less parallel to those of the collar. That will create a slimmer and trimmer look.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Tweaked things. I have looked at approperiate breasts and am now thinking I should soon sketch in the upper rolls for breast and back and thereby unlocking the possibility to finalize the gorget edges and the throat and neck lames of the helmet...



https://photos.app.goo.gl/9eK5J3YdmARcNoyKA

[Johann ColdIron]

Tweaked things. I have looked at approperiate breasts and am now thinking I should soon sketch in the upper rolls for breast and back and thereby unlocking the possibility to finalize the gorget edges and the throat and neck lames of the helmet...



https://photos.app.goo.gl/9eK5J3YdmARcNoyKA

Looking good Kristopher. That roll can catch the front edge of the neck lames if poorly placed so it is good to include it.

Then you need to build the Gorget...

[Kristoffer]

Looking good Kristopher. That roll can catch the front edge of the neck lames if poorly placed so it is good to include it.

Then you need to build the Gorget...

Thank you. I am actually noticing that I am improving a bit when it comes to this sketching business. I just need to narrow the process down to a good system that I can follow. It is slowly growing. I will celebrate when I can sketch something that Mac has no complaints about.

Yeah, I haven't built anything for myself in quite some time now but it seems I might have been tricked into doing so here.. I do enjoy building both gorgets and helmets and I have a secret dream of making all of the ones for a garniture..

[Johann ColdIron]

Thank you. I am actually noticing that I am improving a bit when it comes to this sketching business. I just need to narrow the process down to a good system that I can follow. It is slowly growing. I will celebrate when I can sketch something that Mac has no complaints about.

Good luck with that!

Yeah, I haven't built anything for myself in quite some time now but it seems I might have been tricked into doing so here.. I do enjoy building both gorgets and helmets and I have a secret dream of making all of the ones for a garniture..

I noticed it is your head in there, and lack of neck! A garniture is a fine idea. I'm kinda headed that way myself once the base 1/2 suit is finished.

[Mac]

I will celebrate when I can sketch something that Mac has no complaints about.

The side view is looking good. Now it's time to reconcile it with the front/back views.

I have a nearly limitless ability to complain. Ask Marianne if this is not true.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I have a nearly limitless ability to complain. Ask Marianne if this is not true.

Mac

Oh, I am sure you are just exaggerating your abilities!

Ehm..

[Johann ColdIron]

I have a nearly limitless ability to complain. Ask Marianne if this is not true.

Mac

We know who the real Saint in that house is!

[Kristoffer]

Ok, I took out the major landmarks and put in a suggested outline. I pulled the neck in so it actually sits slightly above the gorget after looking around at pictures. This is not a place we normally see so it is pretty tricky to work our the details but I like to think I am somewhere in the right cornfield at least.

The angle of wich the neck lames spreads away from the neckline is rather tricky to figure out. There seem to be a lot of variation here but I have the feeling that aiming to have the lower edges over the shoulders being at least as wide as the upper breast is, without the gussets. A "good look" seem to be that the lames sit just inside the leather straps over the shoulders, connecting the breast and back. But this is just wild guessing from me. It would allow a line to be drawn between two known points and long necks have a more steep angle downwards while short necks angle is more outwards. This matches my idea of how I look at these things at least.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/PUELGjZSjX13BmFV7

[Mac]

Ok, I took out the major landmarks and put in a suggested outline. I pulled the neck in so it actually sits slightly above the gorget after looking around at pictures. This is not a place we normally see so it is pretty tricky to work our the details but I like to think I am somewhere in the right cornfield at least.

I think you have the neck location just about right. It does take a bit of mental gymnastics.

The angle of wich the neck lames spreads away from the neckline is rather tricky to figure out. There seem to be a lot of variation here but I have the feeling that aiming to have the lower edges over the shoulders being at least as wide as the upper breast is, without the gussets. A "good look" seem to be that the lames sit just inside the leather straps over the shoulders, connecting the breast and back. But this is just wild guessing from me. It would allow a line to be drawn between two known points and long necks have a more steep angle downwards while short necks angle is more outwards. This matches my idea of how I look at these things at least.

The angle of the neck lames looks like it's within the normal range. It may or may not be a bit (5mm?) long.

It may be time to take a few minutes to think about (and rough in) the upper edges of the breast and back. My impression is that you will want to widen the main plates of the gorget; especially in back.