Burgonet build (rough shaping done, crest refining next)

[Tom B.]

There are some pretty good gorget images from the Met that could be valuable references.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collectio ... partment=4

[Kristoffer]

The Met is very helpful.

I have looked at this very handsome fellow. It shows a lot of good details in the neck area that is valuable.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collectio ... 2270?img=1

[Kristoffer]

I based the breastplate on my measurements when grabbing my elbows in front of me. I have set it to 28.6 cm but I did measure on myself with limited tools so there is no surgical precision and could be a bit on the comfortable side.
I might get away with it being slightly wider with gussets and hope I can get it to be between 31 and 32 centimeters. That is about the same as my current waist measurement and I think that having these measurements the same is about where a breast starts looking good. I have lost about 6 kilos in the last two months and will loose more so I haven't got perfectly solid ground to work from here but it should be enough for the helmet and gorget.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/7WyUfMXscp6Cx8wY6

[Mac]

I based the breastplate on my measurements when grabbing my elbows in front of me. I have set it to 28.6 cm but I did measure on myself with limited tools so there is no surgical precision and could be a bit on the comfortable side.

That seems like a pretty good starting point, and the neck lames look OK.

I might get away with it being slightly wider with gussets and hope I can get it to be between 31 and 32 centimeters. That is about the same as my current waist measurement and I think that having these measurements the same is about where a breast starts looking good.

It will be great to see someone build a breastplate with an authentic shape.

I have lost about 6 kilos in the last two months and will loose more so I haven't got perfectly solid ground to work from here but it should be enough for the helmet and gorget.

I think I know where those 6 Kilos have gone. You sent them to us at Christmas in the form of salted licorice and pastries.

Take care not to make the armor so slim that you will have trouble later. There is almost always a bit of back sliding after a weight loss campaign.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I am thinking the gorgets I thought I should share these links in case anyone else ever has use of this thread for something. I doubt it since it is just me doing a lot of mistakes but you never know.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24660

https://pin.it/jj24rfC

It is a bit tricky finding breasts and gorgets without pauldrons in the way. These two were helpful. And I like Kolman.

A side note is that I have finally learned how to take information from armours that are not directly related to what I am doing and apply that information to what I am doing. This feels like a massively important skill that I cannot claim to have learned properly until now. It feels very good and is a milestone passed.

When you aren't eating unhealthy stuff yourself you have to feed someone else.

I vary in weight about 10kg up and down over the year. My move south should stop that a bit since I get fatter over the winter months. I am thinking I should build in the adjustible connection devices for the breast and back to allow some fluctuation. The ones I have seen seem to have three "settings". Plus, having a suit might force me to take better care so I can wear it all year around. Or I can always build another.

[Mac]

It is a bit tricky finding breasts and gorgets without pauldrons in the way.

It is tricky. It's easy to find isolated breastplates, a bit harder to find isolated backs, and harder yet to find isolated gorgets. As you say, though, finding the breast, back, and gorget, but without pauldrons is really tough.

The trick is knowing the usual and typical relationships between the gorget and the rest of the cuirasse.

Here are "The Rules"; at least as far as I understand them....
--The width of the gorget in front will be the same as the width of the corresponding place on the breastplate, including gussets.
--The width of the gorget in back will be the same as the width of the upper backplate.
--The shoulder edges of the gorget will make a smooth transition from the front to the back width
--The shape of the lower front edge of the gorget will parallel the shape of the neck line of the breastplate.
--The shape of the lower back edge of the gorget will parallel the shape of the neck line of the backplate.
--The underlap of the front and back of the gorget with the breast and back will be about two fingers.

The rules about the widths of the plates does not necessarily apply to gorgets with built-in shoulder lames.... but they are a good jumping off point.

And I like Kolman.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24660

What's not to like about Kolman! His work is splendid. This particular armor is a fine example of how to make a fat guy look good. I'll bet that the majority of people who see this armor never even think about how stout the wearer must have been.

A side note is that I have finally learned how to take information from armours that are not directly related to what I am doing and apply that information to what I am doing. This feels like a massively important skill that I cannot claim to have learned properly until now. It feels very good and is a milestone passed.

After a while, it's all one. It's almost a Zen sort of thing. It's all armor, it's all the same.

When you aren't eating unhealthy stuff yourself you have to feed someone else.

Thank you!

I vary in weight about 10kg up and down over the year. My move south should stop that a bit since I get fatter over the winter months. I am thinking I should build in the adjustible connection devices for the breast and back to allow some fluctuation. The ones I have seen seem to have three "settings". Plus, having a suit might force me to take better care so I can wear it all year around. Or I can always build another.

Ah! A summer form and an winter form. In North America we have a rodent like that. We call it a "woodchuck" or "groundhog". It's a kind of marmot (murmeldjur?); and here in Pennsylvania we have a famous one that unerringly predicts the end of winter.... except when it doesn't.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Here are "The Rules"; at least as far as I understand them....

I am happy that I came to exactly the same conclusions when looking around. Even for the ones with built in lames but minus the underlap since that is really hard to get pictures of and would need pictures of the separate pieces with keyholes or other landmarks to work it out.

There are lots of traps to fall in here since a lot of gorgets seem to be associated..

After a while, it's all one. It's almost a Zen sort of thing. It's all armor, it's all the same.

Yes, when you master something, this is what happens. I know how it feels but I have a long way to go before I reach that state in armouring. But one day if I keep studying hard..

Ah! A summer form and an winter form. In North America we have a rodent like that. We call it a "woodchuck" or "groundhog". It's a kind of marmot (murmeldjur?); and here in Pennsylvania we have a famous one that unerringly predicts the end of winter.... except when it doesn't.

Oh really? For me, every day is Monday in february. I am also curious how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Sorry, my association brain is acting up again..

[Kristoffer]

So, this is were I were a couple of days ago before this site went down. I have changed some details since and will keep fuzzing around with details as practice but I have enough to move on. The only bigger change I have done since the sketch looked like this is to add more underlap to the lower edges of the gorget.

The first piece that should get built is the gorget and I will start by making some jelly rolls on strips of 1mm C45 that will turn into the upper ring of the collar. Once I have that done, I can pattern the rest of the neck lames.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/Aog3mKbcuAhgxCMV6

[Tom B.]

And I like Kolman.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24660

What's not to like about Kolman! His work is splendid. This particular armor is a fine example of how to make a fat guy look good. I'll bet that the majority of people who see this armor never even think about how stout the wearer must have been.

Mac

Oh, that one is nice and thick.
Wade and I took photos of him during out last minutes at the Met back in December.

[Kristoffer]

I find it rather odd that the Met does not have profile pictures of this piece. The illusion created by it is brilliant but you cannot expect less from Kolman. Everything he touched turned into gold.

[Tom B.]

I find it rather odd that the Met does not have profile pictures of this piece. The illusion created by it is brilliant but you cannot expect less from Kolman. Everything he touched turned into gold.

Luckily in December it was part of a special etching exhibition and was in a display that gave almost 360 degree viewing.

[Mac]

Tom,

Those images have disappeared since yesterday. Have you changed something about the settings?

Mac

[Tom B.]

Tom,

Those images have disappeared since yesterday. Have you changed something about the settings?

Mac

I don't think I have changed anything.
They still work for me.

[Johann ColdIron]

Tom,

Those images have disappeared since yesterday. Have you changed something about the settings?

Mac

I don't think I have changed anything.
They still work for me.

I can't see them either. Not even opened in a new tab. In Explore or Chrome.

[Mac]

Tom,

Those images have disappeared since yesterday. Have you changed something about the settings?

Mac

I don't think I have changed anything.
They still work for me.

I can't see them either. Not even opened in a new tab. In Explore or Chrome.

I can see the images again now.

Mac

[Sean Powell]

It is very obvious when you point it out.

I am thinking maybe a bit of all three to even it out. Tilt the angle of the comb slightly, move out the chin and flatten the face a bit. Some millimeters on all three should do it I think.

Looking at the graz it seems the bar goes inside the cheeks at nose level..

Sorry for coming back to this thread late. I've been AFK (I lost a knife fight with a surgeon. She stabbed me in then neck and stole a tumor I'd spent years working on! (Benign)) but I noticed the bar issue early on (Design engineer. Failure mode analysis is a professional necessity)

I'm going to add a 4th option for getting the bar to fit and it may help in other ways. TAPER the bar. If it is 3mm thick at the bottom, 4 in the middle and 5 at the top then it doesn't snug up any location until it's fully seated. When the bar is half out the 4mm section is in the 5mm hole and can move forward 1mm while the 3mm section in close to the nose in the 4mm area. That pitches the bar forward at an angle and every 50mm or so you gain a mm of clearance. As a benefit it makes it easier to fit in/out in a location you can't see and can be a sloppy fit right until it seats fully. Bonus points, if the bar gets bent you won't have to fight with it getting it out if the amount of bend is less than the hole size above it (especially tapered in both directions.)

Consider tracing your bar onto scrap cardboard in straight and tapered version. Lay them in the locked position, mark the hole size lightly and position them in the half-open position. I think even small changes will have a good benefit. In a worst case scenario the upper hole can suddenly be 6mm or even 8mm front to back and the transition be abrupt but not sharp right below the brim. Come up even 25mm and the bar will shift forward quite a bit.

It's a very handsome helm! Almost makes me want to switch time periods.

Sean

[Mac]

Sorry for coming back to this thread late. I've been AFK (I lost a knife fight with a surgeon. She stabbed me in then neck and stole a tumor I'd spent years working on! (Benign))
Sean

They don't fight fair, these surgeons. Next time, don't let the anesthesiologist put that i.v. in. That will level the playing field.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I like engineering tips and I am happy you survived being gutted like a fish.

Some tapering would allow the bar to slide up and down a lot smoother. I am thinking if I do the spring pin above the bar, it will push against the bar when it is raised and prevent it from dropping down by itself. I might change my mind about this several times until I am there in the build. I am currently finishing up some other projects so my bench is less cluttered before starting a new build. Two of those projects I hope to have finished next week, then I can start with some jelly rolls.

[Kristoffer]

Just a quick update. I am working on finishing up some arms I started two years ago (yeah, life has been happening a lot) and once those are done, I will start with the gorget. I have finished everything but the last work on the elbows, the buckles and straps and some besagews. I hope to have most of it done during next week.

I am looking forward to building this, it seems like an enjoyable project... I hope..

[Kristoffer]

Today I was able to take 45 minutes to do a jelly roll for the front upper collar ring from a straight rectangle. I rolled the edge, curved the strip over a pipe stake and then stretched everything but the roll out so the angles match my sketches. I used 1.5mm C45 steel. The thickness allows me to stretch the lower part without risking making it too thin. The other neck rings will be made from 1mm.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/MpMaDg5X5tcA2Gem6

I cut the correct angle on a piece of wood that I had in my pocket so I could check while I worked but it went suprisingly well to spot heat and hammer out the correct angle over the anvil. Keeping your piece at a steady angle and just roll it a bit, hammer down, roll, hammer and so on makes it very consistent.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/dLhTEnh1Lg7ZBhyV8

The jelly roll will get some fine tuning once I have done the neck piece and can do the hinge and locking mechanism. I aim to fix the whole upper ring as one piece once it is temporarily assembled. The upper edge will be flat so it can sit flush against a flat surface and the outer edge of the ring will be a fine and even circle.

[Mac]

That looks like a good start!

I like the idea of using a stick to gauge the angle. I would have used cardboard, and it would have gotten burned

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I got some time today so I fixed up so I have both the back and front of the upper ring roughed out.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/Fm3EnAmAAjsf9MLs8

I trimmed and filed the "closing" side. I ran out of oxygen on my last heat of the back piece so the final tippy tappy fine tuning will have to wait until I can get a new bottle.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/8iUxBUXHWZmeEkYs7

[Ilkka Salokannel]

Hi:

How the heck do you manage to bend the plate to shape after doing that huge roll?

I have done it with a small round bead rolled into an edge, done cold.

I am assuming you have to use heat, but won't the roll get messed up in the process?
I thought that you curved the plate first and then hot worked in the roll.

Please clarify, so I can wrap my head around this.

Thanks.
Ilkka

[Scott Martin]

Hi Ilkka

You use a bigger hammer

The gorget plates that I showed you when I was last there had the edges rolled and were then curved. This incidentally "pushes" the roll to the outside, which is where you want it to engage a helmet. when you do this you spend a lot of effort hammering on the roll, and much less effort hammering on the plate, but because the roll is tight it is effectively a solid chunk of metal, and doesn't deform significantly.

Kristoffer is rolling the edge, curving the plate and then flaring by expanding the lower edge (which is a neat trick that I hadn't thought of doing). I wouldn't want to try doing *that* cold, but I suppose it could be done with a straight or cross pean hammer to expand the metal on the lower edge. Note that "could" in this case is not a close relative of "should"!

Scott

[Kristoffer]

I cut out a straight rectangle that is a bit longer then I need and roll the edge and turn the roll out so the transition between the roll and the plate is 90 degrees. I then heat the whole thing and just curl it over a pipe stake with a rubber mallet. I hammer the roll mainly since when that gets curved, the rest of the plate follows. In the curling process, the angle of the lower edge of the roll naturally bends itself back a bit and now ends up at a more approperiate angle. If it was not originally 90 degrees, it would now have too little of an angle to it.

I then spot heat the plate and use a gently rounded hammer to hammer from the edge of the roll, out towards the plate edge, stretching the material by hammering on air with the plate at an angle.

If there is interest, I could do a little demo film to show the steps.

[Ilkka Salokannel]

Hi Kristoffer:

A demo film would be great.

Ilkka

[Kristoffer]

It will take a while, I have a lot of work right now and I need to get a fresh bottle of oxygen but I will try to do some filming when the opportunity strikes.

[Scott Martin]

I'll second the request for filming - I'm interested to see how you do your stretching.

[Kristoffer]

I was able to get a fresh bottle of oxygen yesterday and in the process i strained my back for the second time in my life. Last time was over 15 years ago and I had forgotten how things like sneezing feels with strained back. 1/10, would not recommend.

It fortunately does not seem to be a bad case and apparently it can be self medicated with good rum so I hope I can be back on track next week.

[Mac]

I was able to get a fresh bottle of oxygen yesterday and in the process i strained my back for the second time in my life. Last time was over 15 years ago and I had forgotten how things like sneezing feels with strained back. 1/10, would not recommend.

It fortunately does not seem to be a bad case and apparently it can be self medicated with good rum so I hope I can be back on track next week.

Ouch!

Try to keep it moving. That's what they say is the best thing. So, try not to self medicate till you fall down. That only makes it worse.

Unfortunately, this is your official welcome to middle age.


Mac

[wcallen]

Good luck with the back.

Wait until you get a little older. Every now and then I turn or lean in a "bad" way - it doesn't take any weight involved - and POP, there goes the back. It settles out after a few days, but it is really debilitating until it does clear up.

Wade

[Scott Martin]

The last time I did that was putting an anvil into the trunk of a car - it was unpleasant and took me out of action for several weeks: hopefully it's less of an issue for you.

If the rum is 60% Alcohol or above, then it will kill COVID-19 on contact: Canadian spirits top out at 40%

[Kristoffer]

It is only the left side that is giving me issues. It is worst when I lower my legs down from and elevated position and when i try to sit up towards my left side. I have been doing small stuff all day that force me to move around. I recently invested in a proper Makita router so I have been working on setting that up to do steps for the stairs in the house. I also played around with some simple jewelry stuff and prepared a new setup for some more hydroponic plants I will start up next week. I am currently resting the back a bit in front of the computer with some medicine. Right now it feels good enough that I might be able to work on the gorget hinge tomorrow, but I am not getting my hopes up too much, it might just be the medicine talking..

[Mac]

I recently invested in a proper Makita router so I have been working on setting that up to do steps for the stairs in the house.

I'd stay clear of that router under these circumstances. Perhaps you have better technique than I do, but I always find working with a router has me leaning over too much. It's a recipe for back trouble. Also, of course, you should stay away from power tools when taking a "general anesthetic".

Mac

[Kristoffer]

Yeah, I have only tested some of my bits and settings and figuring out how I will go about making the proper jigs I need. Template router bits really are a blessing for this kind of stuff. I really enjoy what a router allows you to do, it almost makes woodworking acceptable to do. Almost. And I haven't taken up daytime drinking yet..