Burgonet build (rough shaping done, crest refining next)

[Kristoffer]

Today the back feels more like traning soreness so it is healing pretty good it seems. But I cant really sit down because it stiffens up quite fast so I have been moving around all day. I was able to get the hinge done. It will clean up okay I hope but it is annoyingly small. Each section is less than 6mm tall and I am cursing myself for doing a three lame gorget instead of a two lame right now. But hopefully I can pull it off.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/j3yWLJRUmtGXQQ6P6

Next is to make the upper ring circular and flat so that I can make a locking armet for it one day if I feel like it. After fine tuning I will pattern and shape the rest of the lames.

[Kristoffer]

I fixed the roundness by hammering the assembled collar over the end of a pipe stake. It was quick work. It caused the upper ring to deform slightly vertically and not lay flat. I clamped the ring to a flat piece of 5mm steel and went over it with the torch to loosen it up. That worked like a charm. Now I can move on to the rest of the lames.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/3jkrFwDsE8AsNHPD8

[Kristoffer]

Today I was able to fix the neck lames and assemble the upper collar. Next step is to do the lower plates and assemble the whole thing. It will be interesting to pattern and fit them to myself..


https://photos.app.goo.gl/kskrX6Gf9GKEjxCcA



https://photos.app.goo.gl/24HDnn9R5F36EVfu6



https://photos.app.goo.gl/onwZTp1ttMJEcyUW8

[Mac]

I know you are not going to want to hear this; but better now than later.

As you add rings to the neck, you should be altering the shape from a circle to a sort of bean shape to make the transition to the main plates.

Here is a quick sketch of what it might look like from the inside.



The transition is very subtle in the upper lame, but gets more noticeable with each successive lame. Your front lames are probably OK, but I would advise taking the back two off and giving the "skirt" of the back upper lame a few stretching blows to get you headed off in the right direction. If you do that hot, it should not change the circularity of the rim.

I should have mentioned this earlier... sorry

Mac

[Kristoffer]

It is not nearly as circular as the previous image indicates, it is however terribly hard to get a good picture with my phone. But perhaps I should "square" it up more in the back?
I was thinking the front will become pointy when I lay in the crease in the center?



https://photos.app.goo.gl/g2yRHiTVQ1W6XZwN6

[Mac]

But perhaps I should "square" it up more in the back?

Yes. The back main plate will be shaped to accommodate the trapezius, and the neck needs to make a smooth transition into it. OK... it doesn't "need" to, but it will look a lot nicer and more like the real ones if it does.

Also... remember that the line of the center back should be pretty much perpendicular to the plane of the neck, all the way down.

I was thinking the front will become pointy when I lay in the crease in the center?

I like to start "building" that crest early, and then sharpen it up once the neck is integrated with the main plates.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I put in the front crease and squared up the back plates. I have still massive issues to get a photo that is accurate. I tried taking the picture from about four to five feet away from the gorget this time instead of the less than two feet I usually photograph from. It still looks more round on the picture compared to how it looks in person.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/LNKBi8FKMVDRprQQ7

[Scott Martin]

I know you are not going to want to hear this; but better now than later.

As you add rings to the neck, you should be altering the shape from a circle to a sort of bean shape to make the transition to the main plates.
<SNIP>
I should have mentioned this earlier... sorry

Thank you for lending us your eyes Mac!

I've been having trouble with shaping my gorget back transition, and it's primarily because I was trying to maintain the circular shape down to the bottom plates. Both of Wade's pictures of the original here http://allenantiques.com/A-201.html from the "top" down and the "bottom" up are slightly skewed so that you get the *impression* that they are circular - but looking from the side, you see that the front plates "stack" outward while the back ones are tight and drop vertically. You can get a better sense of this change from circular from one of Wade's other gorgets here: http://allenantiques.com/images/A-25-inside.jpg

I'll try to get some pictures of my current build, and see if this change makes it significantly easier to construct!

Scott
(Edit - added a link to the A-25 to contrast)

[Kristoffer]

This picture is what I have aimed for regarding the shape of the lower end of the neck lames now. I should be pretty close but perhaps that picture is warped too?

https://www.ageofarmour.com/education/i ... ates_4.jpg

[Mac]

I may well be extrapolating further than is warranted. I may be taking what I have seen in some gorgets and trying to apply it to all.

It certainly looks like the neck opening in the Age of Armour page is more circular than I expect. https://www.ageofarmour.com/education/i ... ates_4.jpg

On the other hand, the inside view of Wade's collar looks closer to what I have in mind. Perhaps Wade can be persuaded to make a nice square pic of that gorget from the outside.

In any case, it looks to me like you could take what you already have and square up the back just a bit and go with it. The squaring will help to keep the back line perpendicular to the plane of the rim and the extra length can be shoved into the "corners". It can probably happen with a mallet and an anvil horn, and the assembly held together with screws. That will get you somewhere between my (perhaps overzealous) bean-shaped opening and the pretty-much-circular opening that (I have to admit) we see in some examples. *

Mac


*I hate being wrong as much at the next guy; but I'd rather admit it, and be right at the end of the day.

[Scott Martin]

Hi Mac

I think that a lot of the "beaning" in that photo is because of the way the bottoms of the neck lames have been trimmed to fit the back plate - I left the lames perfectly circular (and I think that John Cope did as well) and the gorgets still worked very nicely BUT getting the fit meant doing a lot of shaping to blend the back plate into the collar "just so". Adjusting the back plate less and the neck lames more is probably less work.

Paraphrasing some useful advice from both you and Jeff Wasson: "When in doubt about how medieval armourers did it, the easiest way is generally correct"

[wcallen]

I'm working on some helpful images. Stay tuned. They are annoying to get right.

Wade

[wcallen]

OK, here is what I could reasonably get:

A pretty clean photo from the top. I tried to be as far away as I could and to get as straight as I could. It looks pretty round, but I think that isn't quite right:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-201-topish.jpg

Since it didn't show very much, I tried to trace the edges using a compass as a divider. This shows the top edges of the main plates:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... plates.jpg

And this attempts to show the bottom edges of the lowest neck lames:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... plates.jpg
The top curve is of the back plate. The bottom curve is of the front plate.
There is a gap in the middle there because of the leather. This looks a lot more pointy because it is logically flairing out into the center of the base plate. It has to handle the crease in the center of the plate,and the taper of the neck plate.

So, what I see is a broader curve in the back plate than the front plate.
The lower edges of the lowest neck lames are flared and tweaked to fit to the main plates. This doesn't just make them fit at the edge of the plate, but also farther down inside the overlap where the main plates are at a very different angle.

If I have to summarize, I think we are part way in between Kristoffer's shape and Mac's ideal shape.

I do think that the cheaper ones are more round.

Wade

[Scott Martin]

A pretty clean photo from the top. I tried to be as far away as I could and to get as straight as I could. It looks pretty round, but I think that isn't quite right:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-201-topish.jpg

Thanks Wade - this is an excellent photo. Whileh I don't think that it shows what Mac wants it to show, it gives me a much better perspective on the assembly.

Scott

[Kristoffer]

A quick update is in order. I was able to get my hands on an actual 16th century upper back gorget lame so now I have a good idea of how the shaping should be done.

I shall see if what I have can be reshaped reasonably or if I will start over. It will however have to wait since I am in the middle of selling the house and moving but I hope I can get back to this in the beginning of 2021.

[Sky]

Curses! I'm scheduled to start a pair of locking gorgets here in the next couple of weeks and I was hoping you would have more info.

Good luck with the move - never fun.

[Kristoffer]

Sky, I believe this thread might have valuable information for you:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157286

[Sky]

Thanks man, this is a great read! I feel like compiling a sticky of in-depth topics like this would be really nice.

[Kristoffer]

Soooo, long time no posting.

Covid happened and I did actually sell my house and move half way across the country and is now living on the island of Gotland, just outside of the city of Visby. I am renovating my house and will not be able to get my shop renovated probably two more years. I have some friends who I can borrow some shop space from so I can make some very slow progress. This winter, I cannot do much renovating so I can set off some time to finally build this helmet (and hopefully gorget).

I felt a bit inspired after watching some cosplayers craft things and at the same time there was a discussion on facebook mentioning sculpting pieces in foam in combination with making bucks, so I tried it just for fun (It wasn't very fun at all).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9A7NUg1shks5Q86B7

The finished foam helmet looks like this. I did not bother using gypsum to finish it properly and sand it down and all that stuff that the cosplay people does.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/VqGkEYmuf53uPdaXA

It was however very easy to make the can pattern over my foam helmet.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DQKiGXme5Q74T2526

And here is my finished pattern, enjoyed with some coffee.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/phqs7EtDNhzwNkYNA

I have to be in germany all week but I hope to be able to cut it out in 2mm C45 steel next weekend and hopefully get it welded at a friends place the week after.

[John Vernier]

That seems like a really promising method for modelling and patterning. I take it you made a half helmet? Like a half-hull ship model? I would be tempted to try this, if I can get over my aversion to having foam shavings getting everywhere all over the shop and being tracked into the house, etc.

[RWWT]

Well, this is exciting! Somehow I missed this thread while doing homework for my own burgonet project. Now, to go back and read everything.

Looks great so far! I hope mine comes along half as well!

[Mac]

This is certainly a radical approach! It looks like it going well.

I wonder if there is a way to do this with a more tractable material than spray foam. Plaster might be easier to control, but it's heavy. Perhaps one could make up much of the volume with something light and empty and apply plaster over that.

How about something like this.....
--start with the plywood buck
--fill up as much as possible with sheet foam, attached with hot glue
--fill the gaps with spray foam
--cover with at least 1/2" or 1.5cm of Plaster Of Paris
--add additional POP as needed
--sculpt the POP and add more as necessary

Mac

[RWWT]

I wonder if there is a way to do this with a more tractable material than spray foam. Plaster might be easier to control, but it's heavy. Perhaps one could make up much of the volume with something light and empty and apply plaster over that.

I saw something, somewhere, at some point (yeah, really helpful, I know...) where someone applied latex, then plaster and other stuff over a balloon to get some cheap volume for building up a head. If memory serves, it was someone involved with creating movie props or similar. Perhaps Chris Gilman would have some ideas about this?

[Indianer]

Just my 2 cents:
I did a PoP casting of my own head. Myself. There's a tut on YT from a hot chick somewhere. It is possible, with some planning and a mirror. The result will however be better with some aid. Reminds me...i gotta glue that ear back on.

What I mean to say: Maybe, if you need a head casting as a basis, it might be best to just make one. Straight forward.

BTW: Love hte foam, what exactly is that...?

[Mac]

I wonder if there is a way to do this with a more tractable material than spray foam. Plaster might be easier to control, but it's heavy. Perhaps one could make up much of the volume with something light and empty and apply plaster over that.

I saw something, somewhere, at some point (yeah, really helpful, I know...) where someone applied latex, then plaster and other stuff over a balloon to get some cheap volume for building up a head. If memory serves, it was someone involved with creating movie props or similar. Perhaps Chris Gilman would have some ideas about this?

Starting with a balloon would work OK, but it doesn't allow for the use of a buck to establish the profile etc.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I made the whole helmet, not just half. Mainly just for fun. The product I used was just cheap canned foam.

If I would want to do a more finished sculpted helmet, I would probably use insulation board like XPS or possibly carving foam and glue and just skip canned foam. Carve with an exacto knife until the shape is there. Then use a plaster to cover the whole thing in and then sand and file until I am happy.

There is a lot of stuff on Youtube regarding foam sculpting. Taking ideas from artists rather than cosplayers might be a good idea.

My trip to germany is behind me and I aim to cut the skull bits in C45 steel tomorrow.

[Kristoffer]

I used a jigsaw with a very low teeth count to cut everything. A fine tooth blade will overheat and be useless very fast on anything thicker than 1mm C45 steel so a blade rated for thicker than the metal you are cutting is needed. You also need to make sure the sheet is not vibrating even slightly or it will slow down your cutting significantly. If you notice this happening, an easy fix is to support the sheet just in front of where you are cutting. Cutting should go very fast and smooth or you are doing it wrong.

I put a 10cm thick cheap EPS board on the floor and put the metal on that. This allows me to cut it with my knees pressing down on the sheet and my bodyweight supporting the jigsaw. Long sleeves, ear protection and full face mask is a must. The EPS will survive quite a lot of cutting before it needs to be retired.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/oxpPPHfXw4hjJm1RA

One of the benefits of this cutting method is that the cut pieces comes out perfectly flat, this makes matching them very easy.
When I have two pieces that should be the same, i like to cut just outside my sharpie line and clamp the two pieces together and adjust the edges with a flap disk on an angle grinder. This makes both pieces pretty much identical. Normally, I use vice grips but in my makeshift "shop" I only had some woodworking clamps. They worked very well for the job.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/CnyU1NcnkXEGZLvn8

I hope to be able to visit a friend tomorrow to get the pieces welded. More updates to come.

[Kristoffer]

Ok, so welding is done, except that the last weld will need to be melted from the inside as well. It will have to wait until next year when I hope I can do it, then trim the welding tabs and clean up the edges and welds on the outside and get to shaping the can into a more helmet like shape.

The bottom edge of the neck is extended down about an inch or so. This material will get stretched out to a flange that the upper neck lame then connects to. There is also material added to round the corners of the face opening. This will get cut out later for where the hinges for the cheek plates will sit but that happens once all shaping is done.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/7W7cwiV4NGbND8Jh9


https://photos.app.goo.gl/kj4rbdU12mBVeUoB7


https://photos.app.goo.gl/mQCadpsRdyni6jVQ7

If I did not know better, I would think this is as ugly as this thing will ever be. But I am well aware it will become a bit more ugly before starting to look like a helmet. After the initial pushing in of the welded edges, it will be peak ugly.

[Mac]

It's good to see this beginning!

I recommend closing that seam in the middle of the facial and welding it up, even if you plan to cut it away later. A few blows with a cross peen at red heat will close it enough to weld. Once welded, it will serve as insurance against the sort of seam failure that begins at the edge.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I am planning to do that. I found myself a few millimeters short, wich was annoying. I have updated the pattern to correct this. I would not want to hammer anything that has a slit in the edge, that is to ask for cracks.

I am eager to progress on this, unfortunately some holidays got in my way.

[Kristoffer]

Ok, so the can is now welded both on the inside and outside and the outside welds have been ground flush.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/pZNmPxSgySFmXGzy8


https://photos.app.goo.gl/F4yjRZVzEudraMuc7


https://photos.app.goo.gl/f1sS47yZLLGxuRB67

Up next is to start pushing in anything that does not look like a helmet.

[izirath]

Really curious as to how you manage to weld the seams on the inside. You'll have to show me one day!

Jan

[Kristoffer]

Really curious as to how you manage to weld the seams on the inside. You'll have to show me one day!

Jan

Everything was done with a TIG. Ideally one use a short back cap and a transparent gas cup and a swivel head. Unfortunately, we did not have any of those things but managed to do it anyway. I will buy a proper TIG with all those things for my new shop later.

We should play around with can helmets at some point. That would be fun!

[izirath]

It really just refuses to puddle or weld on the inside of a seam for me, I only get sputtering and heat. I'm guessing all of it needs to be cleaned thoroughly.

[Kristoffer]

It really just refuses to puddle or weld on the inside of a seam for me, I only get sputtering and heat. I'm guessing all of it needs to be cleaned thoroughly.

This is more or less what I do in my own shop if I will tig weld anything.

- I wipe off the pieces on both sides using acetone and fresh rags, wearing nitrile disposable gloves. The sheets have this filthy oil on them that prevents them from rusting when stored.
- I give all edges that will be welded a chamfer on both sides using the angle grinder and a flap disc
- I use a 3M scotch brite or sand paper and pinch it on both sides of the metal and run it along all sides that will be welded to take off the outer layer of the steel.
- I clean the surface of any hammer i will use to shape the metal with using acetone and rags
- I wear gloves so I dont put any finger prints on surfaces that needs welding
- I rub the surfaces with acetone again once it is time to weld them together.
- If I have to mess around and move the piece a lot and touch it, I use more acetone and rags. You cannot use acetone and rags too much.

Any pollution in the welds will pretty much have to be cut open and ground perfectly clean and re-welded. Of all the welds on this current build, there was actually one spot that was contaminated. There is probably a nice english term for this kind of pollution, I just call it welding cancer. I had to drill and cut away a bit at the center of the top ridge. I made a replacement piece and I will have to clean everything off and weld the piece in place and hope to not cause any more contaminations.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/D8t8U2yg7un6ZEZQ7

To sum it up, any action taken to keep the welds super clean is well worth the effort since dealing with contaminated welds is such a giant pain in the ass.