Maximillian Fluting by Hammered Tooling

[Ilkka Salokannel]

Hi all:

I get armouring pdf's from Acedemia.edu website regularly and today I downloaded the following:

"Specific Manufacturing Features of Stiffening ribs on Maximillian Armors by Ilya Petrukhin"

It shows a study and recreation of how to make the Maximillian flutes with the two sided matched grooves on both sides of said flute.

They show that the fluting was done by matched die/punch method to achieve the result we see in the armours.
Pic of the tool heads below.

Everyone should give it a read.

I know there is a thread discussing this, but I could not find it, so I started a new topic.

[wcallen]

I took a really quick pass over the article.

I noticed a couple of things.

Looking at his sample that "shows" that this method matches the originals.
Hmm. They don't look the same to me. And the sample is a simple straight, basically flat piece.

This type of tooling would require reasonably precise alignment of the top and bottom tooling. Building the frame to allow for this alignment on arbitrary pieces like knees, elbows, breastplates, helmet skulls cuisses and vambraces is... well, at best non-trivial. It doesn't seem consistent with the types of tooling we do know they used.

I also notice that he includes a reference to one of my pieces. It should probably be listed in the set of items at the end. He uses it as an example of over-cleaning... and I must admit that it is a very good example of that. It has been extensively cleaned.

Additional notes:

Any study of this topic should include details that he has not discussed. Two off the top of my head are:
- the lines often also exist in places where there are no flutes. We don't normally think about this, but it happens. Using the very same breastplate that he includes in the article, we see:
https://european-armour.com/images/A-170-a-waist.jpg
There are a lot of lines on that waist lame. They are worn just like the rest of the breastplate, but they show that they both define the waist and extend the line of the flutes to the waist.

- There are some pieces that include etching between the flutes. This is the example I own:
https://european-armour.com/images/A-14 ... -angle.jpg
If you look closely you will see that the lines next to the flutes where there is no etching are of the typical form. But the ones on the side of the flute which is etched are part of the etching. They aren't engraved/stamped in.

Does this mean that I don't think people could use this method to build armour these days? Certainly not. If it works for you, and achieves the right look, go for it. It is definitely better than making the flutes without the lines.

Now others can weigh in.

Wade

[Armadillo]

I had trouble seeing all the images in the PDF with the online viewer. There is some great analysis in that article and I'm thrilled that someone is exploring percussive options for this detail.

As to how our predecessors may have used such percussive tooling, and as Wade brought up, how they could have employed mated dies in a manner that could deliver such precise alignment, that is something to speculate about for a while. One must test the ideas before we can rule them out, so I am glad to see this experimentation despite the crude result.

Were I to consider a professional career as a modern armourer I would be starting my major tool purchases with a pullmax or trumpf nibbler or one of the min-max equivalents to do exactly what this article describes and much more. Lay the beads in mechanically and refine with hand tools. My apologies for always jumping in on these threads talking about machines, I can't help it.
-A.

[wcallen]

If you can see images, look at Figure 20.

It is.. interesting. It seems to show a very short bot of parallel lines in the wrong place. Maybe. One of them ends in a ding that doesn't make any sense with this type of proposed tooling.

Wade

[Rene K.]

If you can see images, look at Figure 20.

It is.. interesting. It seems to show a very short bot of parallel lines in the wrong place. Maybe. One of them ends in a ding that doesn't make any sense with this type of proposed tooling.

Wade

How can i get access to this pictures ?

[wcallen]

How can you get access to the pictures?

I just put the title into google and found the academia.edu link:
https://www.academia.edu/39887302/Speci ... ian_Armors

I didn't bother to sign in to download, I just scrolled through the article on the page.

I don't bother with phones. On a computer, it seems to display reasonably well.

Wade

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Real flutes often taper in width, and so do the incised lines, which often have long mis-strikes on one side or the other. I have worked on a great deal of real 'Maximilian' stuff, but I have never seen fluting consistent with such a tool.

[wcallen]

I finally got to the bottom of the article.
It actually references two of my pieces. A-170 and A-212.

It should be noted that the outside flute on both A-170 and A-220 are different from the other flutes. They are "one sided" - functionally a step - and only have one "engraved" line.

This is more obvious on A-212, but you can see it in the images of A-170 also.

The backplate associated with A-212 has many fewer flutes, but they serve as a nice illustration. They do not have engraved lines, and they consist of a single "full" flute and two "steps". Then, of course, we have the very similar recessed border at the bottom and "bumps" at the top and arm holes.

Wade

[Rene K.]

OK, now i got it.

To use a tool that easy makes the flutings and also do the lines is a nice idea, but i'm really convinced that this is not the way they have done it in the 16.th. The result of this kind of tool is more like a modern beadroller.
One of the best examples to study the making prozess is the unfinished costume-armour in vieanna. This suit has all its surface hammer finished, maybe rough filed surface, with not any engraving line beneath the flutings or ropings.

[Christian Wiedner]

True, but if you look at the other child harness next to it this one also has almost no engraved lines but mostly everything etched...
Nevertheless I agree with you that this is most probably not the method they used back then.

[wcallen]

....
One of the best examples to study the making prozess is the unfinished costume-armour in vieanna. This suit has all its surface hammer finished, maybe rough filed surface, with not any engraving line beneath the flutings or ropings.

Mac often points people to that armour. And, as usual, he is right. It is an extremely valuable resource that gives us a good idea of what "hammerwork" should accomplish on an armour. Those guys really knew what they were doing.

Wade

[Scott Martin]

Could someone provide a link to this armour and/or a goll reference number please?

If folks have photos that are not online I can park them where they can bee seen on a site (borealissteel.ca/com or scottmartin.ca) not owned by Google / facebook. My email is in my profile...

Scott

[Christian Wiedner]

As it is 16th century I am afraid there is no Goll...
Here is the official link: https://www.khm.at/en/objectdb/detail/372240/

[wcallen]

If you participate in FB... As usual, Tom B has an album of images of this armour:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 648&type=3

It looks like they are a combination of images taken at the KHM and images taken during the Last Knight exhibit.

Wade

[Indianer]

Guys, if you were do hammer that fluting and incise the lines, how would YOU do it? Pre-draw the flutes, hammer on air over Chisel-like fluting stake with a thin fluting hammer? That's what I suppose. How to incise then? Never thought about that. I suppose there is some "carving tool" you would use..?

[Galileo]

*snip* How to incise then? Never thought about that. I suppose there is some "carving tool" you would use..?

Is it a carving tool, or tool marks from a grinding wheel when they tried to clean up / crisp up the fluting lines? That could also lend itself to putting lines down where there's no fluting - such as the link Wade shared to one in his collection about the waistline.

[Rene K.]

I still have the opinion that they uses a kind of cutting-wheels to do this job. Too many signs show us the evidence, the overcuttings and the facets on curved flutings for example. Sometimes you can also see that the lines are not allways parallel and drift away a bit.
When you expect chiseling, there is a more visible sign for this kind of tooling when pieces are heavily worn and ground down over the time. Also it would be total easy to stop the chiseling when reaching the end of the fluting.



[img]blob:https://www.pinterest.de/2eea02cc-d5d3- ... 96ddeb3d9a[/img]





clearly visible characteristic chisel marks ( maybe redone later ) on a hardly ground down jousting arm.

[Indianer]

Convincing, thx René. Dremel then.

[Otto von Teich]

The example in the last photo does look like it might have been done with a chisel. All the rest look like they were done with some type of a wheel. I'd love to know what type of setup they had. Must have been a foot operated treadle. It would take a steady hand. Thanks for sharing the pictures!

[Christian Wiedner]

Rene:
I still do not agree with the cutting wheel methode...
But of course I agree there have been several ways to achive the results. It is most likely they used different tools - for example for the one side groove and the double side groove.
And as your last picture shows obviously different chiselmarks than the rest of the pictures. Though, if you look closely, there seems to be a difference even in this pice, as the lower two grooves are looking way better. Maybe the original grooves have been ground away and redone later by an unskilled person?

For the cutting wheel what diameter do you think they would have been used? And what speed. I guess you need a pretty big wheel to achive a similar speed like a modern power tool. For this the curves of the couter (first pic - do you have a highere resolution?) seem way to narrow. And if you use a small wheel there is no need for the overcuts...

[Mac]

For what it is worth, I am confident that most of these lines were cut with a rotating wheel of some sort.

Mac

[Scott Martin]

I had a friend (Christine Pedersen) who is a jeweler look at this thread, and also one of Wade's gauntlets (which she refers to as a "glove") below. Her response (with some "TOP SECRET details removed) below. She has some interesting pieces on her blog, http://christinepedersen.blogspot.com/

1. Methods: if you are OK with using some modern methods, you could score with a cutting blade, but it will weaken the metal because you remove material. Chasing compresses and offers different/more options…

Were any of those images in the thread on modern projects? If they are all old, the chaser could also be working with a long keel on the liner, tends to bite as you steer through corners; especially likely to make some munched up lines if it was hit a second time after forming (some evidence of that on the glove).

2. Style: …maybe some of the over-laps were deliberate, they can look decorative that way? Or a less-skilled chaser? Or for a low-prestige client where they just wanted the job done, and no-one cared about how tidy the chasing was. But...

3. Order of doing the different moves (ridge, valley, chased line) will affect how things look in the end too: that high-res glove speaks to me of planning ahead to develop the hitting order so that you minimize the tasks/repetition, AND you choose the tools so that you don’t smoosh previous line-work.

Specifically: After making a few of those gloves and nailing the flat metal pattern, I think a lot of the chased lines could be done flat as landmarks on the metal, and the forming done second, using the chased lines to guide the shape development e.g. steel and wood forms, with wood and steel hammers respectively. Could have used a wooden ‘arm’ former, that the metal wraps around, to do a touch-up on the chased lines at the end.

Flutes: some are loose with decorative lines, others in the forum pictures are tight: possibly meaning the metal was supported and the lines chased or re-chased so that the lines pinch the ridge of the flute tighter. Dependent on the form—once I had a pattern, and knew what I needed to achieve—I wouldn’t rule out doing that technique as an early move, to stiffen the metal form, and using it as a technique to stabilize the sheet. Tailors do it with cloth too.

Anyways, I never get hung up on should.... I would look at the goal, dream about how it looks, and mess with the order of hitting… Picture of something I just finished hitting below—TOP SECRET, not published yet, will be part of the Alberta Craft Council Fall Auction, opening Nov 17. I put chased lines all over the flat sheet, then formed the flame shapes. Stabilizing ridges and new shapes emerged as I formed the piece.
1. Methods: if you are OK with using some modern methods, you could score with a cutting blade, but it will weaken the metal because you remove material. Chasing compresses and offers different/more options…

Were any of those images in the thread on modern projects? If they are all old, the chaser could also be working with a long keel on the liner, tends to bite as you steer through corners; especially likely to make some munched up lines if it was hit a second time after forming (some evidence of that on the glove).

2. Style: …maybe some of the over-laps were deliberate, they can look decorative that way? Or a less-skilled chaser? Or for a low-prestige client where they just wanted the job done, and no-one cared about how tidy the chasing was. But...

3. Order of doing the different moves (ridge, valley, chased line) will affect how things look in the end too: that high-res glove speaks to me of planning ahead to develop the hitting order so that you minimize the tasks/repetition, AND you choose the tools so that you don’t smoosh previous line-work.

Specifically: After making a few of those gloves and nailing the flat metal pattern, I think a lot of the chased lines could be done flat as landmarks on the metal, and the forming done second, using the chased lines to guide the shape development e.g. steel and wood forms, with wood and steel hammers respectively. Could have used a wooden ‘arm’ former, that the metal wraps around, to do a touch-up on the chased lines at the end.

Flutes: some are loose with decorative lines, others in the forum pictures are tight: possibly meaning the metal was supported and the lines chased or re-chased so that the lines pinch the ridge of the flute tighter. Dependent on the form—once I had a pattern, and knew what I needed to achieve—I wouldn’t rule out doing that technique as an early move, to stiffen the metal form, and using it as a technique to stabilize the sheet. Tailors do it with cloth too.

Anyways, I never get hung up on should.... I would look at the goal, dream about how it looks, and mess with the order of hitting… Picture of something I just finished hitting below—TOP SECRET, not published yet <SNIP> I put chased lines all over the flat sheet, then formed the <Snip> shapes. Stabilizing ridges and new shapes emerged as I formed the piece.

I'm going to do some experiments and see if I can scribe in the lines bracketing the flutes and then flute without destroying these lines: if so, then the parallel lines may well have been register marks ("put the flutes between these lines") laid in when the piece was originally laid out. If so then this may well have been done with a graver (engraving tool) which will leave overcuts similar to those seen in actual pieces - although I would expect the overcut lines to be "smooshed" in the raising, they could be put back in easily by re-graving (or grinding) once fluting was complete.

Because clearly I have lots of free time to be doing this...

Scott

[Rene K.]

Rene:
I still do not agree with the cutting wheel methode...
But of course I agree there have been several ways to achive the results. It is most likely they used different tools - for example for the one side groove and the double side groove.
And as your last picture shows obviously different chiselmarks than the rest of the pictures. Though, if you look closely, there seems to be a difference even in this pice, as the lower two grooves are looking way better. Maybe the original grooves have been ground away and redone later by an unskilled person?

For the cutting wheel what diameter do you think they would have been used? And what speed. I guess you need a pretty big wheel to achive a similar speed like a modern power tool. For this the curves of the couter (first pic - do you have a highere resolution?) seem way to narrow. And if you use a small wheel there is no need for the overcuts...

Hi Christian
For explanation, I choosed the last picture to show the audience the visible differents in chiseld and ground down lines and cuted lines

[Rene K.]

I'm going to do some experiments and see if I can scribe in the lines bracketing the flutes and then flute without destroying these lines: if so, then the parallel lines may well have been register marks ("put the flutes between these lines") laid in when the piece was originally laid out. If so then this may well have been done with a graver (engraving tool) which will leave overcuts similar to those seen in actual pieces - although I would expect the overcut lines to be "smooshed" in the raising, they could be put back in easily by re-graving (or grinding) once fluting was complete.

Because clearly I have lots of free time to be doing this...

Scott

Sorry to say, but that will not work to get the real look. But i like your hunger for tryout things. Sadly we have to less collections like wade's to make the research in things, often only seen by craftsmen that work in this area.

[Christian Wiedner]

Hi Christian
For explanation, I choosed the last picture to show the audience the visible differents in chiseld and ground down lines and cuted lines

Well, you may have a point - but only in pointing out different approaches which may lead to a similar results... As written before, I dont think the lines are cut. So for me you compare a crudly chiseled line with nice(er) lines. But you can get better results than this even with chisels

I think Christine got some good points, for example the order... In fact I experimented with it, though I got no good results but that may always be a lack of practise which we should never forget... just because we made some cm or even meters of lines we will never get the routine they had.

I do not agree on her "weaken the material" as the groove is always a weaker spot - even if chasing the line. Here the material is moved to the sides and later ground away.

[Indianer]

I'm going to do some experiments and see if I can scribe in the lines bracketing the flutes and then flute without destroying these lines: if so, then the parallel lines may well have been register marks ("put the flutes between these lines") laid in when the piece was originally laid out.

Assuming you can beat those sharp lines and not ruin them, or be able to easily retrieve them...

Register marks might have worked with mass produced patterns. Would these objects be mass produced? Today we use chalk or soapstone for guiding lines, or just pens. They had charcoal crayons, had they? Might not do much on scaly stock though...

Gaunts... well. An armourers life was long too. Who knows how many copies of todays prestige pieces they doled out in the long and lonely hours of their night.

Then again, would you have risked engraving or cutting the lines and then not having them match the flutes, or the flutes not match each other?

Ramblings. Anyway, highly interested to see the experiment!!

[Rene K.]

Hi Christian
For explanation, I choosed the last picture to show the audience the visible differents in chiseld and ground down lines and cuted lines

Well, you may have a point - but only in pointing out different approaches which may lead to a similar results... As written before, I dont think the lines are cut. So for me you compare a crudly chiseled line with nice(er) lines. But you can get better results than this even with chisels

Maybe i used the wrong words. I wanted to show the pattern that gets visible when you polishing down the surface of a piece of armour till the lines beneath the fluting is nearly gone. At this point you will see more and more the single chisel-marks that went a tiny bit deeper in the material.
For shure every region, master and workshop had his own method to do the job, and clearly there is not only one that works.

[Scott Martin]

I think Christine got some good points, for example the order... In fact I experimented with it, though I got no good results but that may always be a lack of practise which we should never forget... just because we made some cm or even meters of lines we will never get the routine they had.

I do not agree on her "weaken the material" as the groove is always a weaker spot - even if chasing the line. Here the material is moved to the sides and later ground away.

Remember that Christine is a Jeweler, not an armourer, so her perspective is different than ours, but none the less valuable. Her work is much cleaner than mine, and has very little "upset" on the sides of the chasing lines - a result of thousands of hours of practice. If you have seen Ugo's work (while in progress) you will understand how scary these people are at their technique.

Then again, would you have risked engraving or cutting the lines and then not having them match the flutes, or the flutes not match each other?

I have been scribing in the "peak" lines of my flutes since I find that the marks of a sharpie (even a fine point one) are too broad for me to place the flute in exactly the right place, so I will just be scribing some additional lines (somewhat deeper) on either side. Since my flute lines now are well within 1/64" (under 1/2mm) of where I scribe them, I would assume that medieval armourers could do the same.

Maybe i used the wrong words. I wanted to show the pattern that gets visible when you polishing down the surface of a piece of armour till the lines beneath the fluting is nearly gone. At this point you will see more and more the single chisel-marks that went a tiny bit deeper in the material.
For shure every region, master and workshop had his own method to do the job, and clearly there is not only one that works.

Actually I think that this photo is exactly the sort of evidence for (in this case) a chased line rather than a ground one. For someone good at repousee (like Ugo, Christine, or Jeff DeBoer) their line consistency is within a few thousandths of an inch in depth. You will not see *any* inconsistency until you grind out to almost the entire depth of the channel. This feature is actually what had me re-examine my assumption that the lines were ground, rather than "cut" with a chasing chisel. The process of chasing will allow you to re-line areas that get deformed in fluting, as long as you do not deform the entire channel, so this is what I need to test. It would also be possible to use a chased (chiseled) line as a "guide" for a cutting disc, and as has been pointed out, some lines may be chased, some may be ground, and others may be etched, so I don't think that we will get to "one true way" regardless of the results of the experiment.

Also notable that when I am fluting, the "bottom" of the valley thus formed is largely protected from my hammer strikes since I do not actually direct any hammer strikes at the "valley" (I hit the edges about 2 MM from the crest, and "tighten" the crest with a planishing pass)

[Sean M]

A few Western European sword blades such as Moonbrand have groups of long, narrow fullers which are straight as an arrow and seem like they might have been made by similar methods to the incised lines on armour. The fullers have more volume though. https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/moonbra ... 5cc513edec

[RWWT]

I am really glad to see this thread. I stumbled on the same article and thought it was intriguing, though I was not entirely sold on it.

I have been debating fluting for the helmet I am working on and methods for doing the incised lines. I've read the rotating wheel assertions and can't dispute them, though I am not sure I trust the steadiness of my hand to attempt it with a Dremel, but I intend to experiment with it. Bringing the work to a more fixed wheel seems appealing, though I haven't figured out how to get a fine enough wheel to do the job well.

My alternative plan was filing the lines in. I've been playing around with that on a scrap piece of metal and, once I messed around with it a bit, it seems to produce decent results and isn't as tedious as I thought it would be. Once you get a line started, it's quite easy to extend it and guide it around curves. My files are crap so I was thinking about getting some better ones to continue experimenting on this path.

I'd be very interested in more details on other people's tools and set ups to do this.

[Mac]

I've cut some lines with files. It works OK on curved surfaces like helmets, but not on flattish things like knee and elbow wings. A triangular file seems best suited to the work.

That same range of curved surfaces can be lined with a hack saw as well. You will want a fine tooth blade with the waves of the "rake" ground away. This will let it cut a narrow line. Unlike the file, this is a two handed tool, and you will need someone or something to hold the work.

In general, I'm a proponent of the rotary disc theory. The only real down side is that it is skilled work, and takes practice to get good results. Historically, I suppose that it was the work of specialists who did it all day long.

Mac