Arming coat for supporting armor only, no padding

[Fenrix]

Hello,

I wanted to see what people thought about making a linen arming coat with as heavy an outer layer as possible (I found 10.2oz per Yard^2) and a medium weight lining of 5.3 oz linen?
I wanted to avoid adding a layer of filling to avoid heat. I overheat way too fast in armor and have no complaints about the lack of padding with my kit (though will add some extra layers to elbows).

just for reference this is the fabric I was looking at: https://fabrics-store.com/fabrics/linen ... views-1528

Many Thanks,
Aaron Stern

[Sean M]

While researching my forthcoming book, I found two basic constructions for doublets. You can make them like the Charles de Blois with a facing fabric, stuffing, and a lining fabric quilted together (documented in guild rules, expense accounts, and surviving garments from the 12th century to the 16th), or you can make them like the blazer of a suit with a facing fabric stretched over a canvas interlining with a loosely attached soft lining (in guild rules, expense accounts, and surviving garments from roughly 1490 onwards but probably introduced earlier in the 15th century).

The cheapest doublets in the 16th century had a canvas facing, a canvas interlining, and no lining, but Henry VIII's canvas arming doublets had a lining. Their fabrics were much better than we are used to paying for, so if they thought they needed two layers of canvas to hold the points and survive a year of daily or bi-daily use, they were probably right. That goes double for fabrics-store.com linen which is generally not very good (have not seen their canvas but I think 10 oz is on the lighter end of canvas weights).

Edit: Matthew Gnagy's example doublet has 11 oz canvas, but it looks nicer than that FabricStore canvas (bleached, more even threads with fewer slubs and bits of husk). Good canvas might cost 2 or 3 times as much as what FabricStore carries, and two layers of their canvas might work just as well as two layers of nice canvas.

[Indianer]

Sean, would You be so inclied as to make a rough pencil sketch just to show what goes over what and how it is sewed? I am thinking a midsaggital cut only, no need for 3D. That...would help a lot :<|

[Sean M]

Indianer, does this help?



Facing fabric = Außenstoff
Stuffing = Füllmaterial (quasi)
Lining fabric = Futterstoff

The expense accounts of Edward III include a doublet for the king to wear with armour made with construction #1. A doublet in Scotland from about 1560 is made the same way and it has eyelets on the sleeves to fasten armour. The expense accounts of Henry VIII include two doublets to wear with his armour made with construction #2, and an extant doublet for a child from Kloster Alpirsbach is made of two layers of canvas.

Here is a test patch of construction #1 with blue cotton-linen facing fabric, then a layer of linen fabric, then 1 to 4 layers of cotton batting / Baumwollevlies, then linen fabric.



Construction 1 can be very simple sewing, just stack the layers, stitch them together, and from then on treat them as one thick fabric. Or it can be built in a more complicated way which Tasha Kelly has described https://cottesimple.com/tag/pourpoint-of-charles-vi/

In construction 2, the canvas (middle layer) serves as a skeleton, The facing fabric is stretched over it and the lining is often cut a bit bigger than it and loosely attached to the canvas so it can be removed and replaced. The best way to learn these techniques is through Matthew Gnagy's books, workshops, and videos. https://www.themodernmaker.co/

The book covers all of this in more detail with more illustrations than I can make, scan, edit, and upload in 1 hour but it has not yet been printed.

The guild rules from 16th century Seville and Granada insist that the waistbands of hose need two layers of canvas to take eyelets for the points, so even in hot places, having at least two layers of tough fabric was seen as a best practice. There are surviving doublets from the 16th and 17th century of just one layer of silk and one layer of linen but they were doublets for sitting around in summer not fighting in armour (and I suspect that they have canvas inserted behind every eyelet).

One layer of canvas and one layer of medium-weight linen might work but I suspect it would stretch out of shape and get torn sooner than a doublet with two layers of canvas.

[Indianer]

Hi Sean, thank You so much for the elaborations! I can revisit my notes with this and clarify yet another few things. This seems an awfully short reply. But the implications are grand Thank You!

Indi

EDIT: In the photograph above - Based on Your explanations, I simply disregarded it as maybe a construction facilitator, anything not part of the intended design per se. But...is it? The roll on the right?

[Sean M]

Hi Sean, thank You so much for the elaborations! I can revisit my notes with this and clarify yet another few things. This seems an awfully short reply. But the implications are grand Thank You!

Indi

EDIT: In the photograph above - Based on Your explanations, I simply disregarded it as maybe a construction facilitator, anything not part of the intended design per se. But...is it? The roll on the right?

I finished three edges of the sample patch with a standard double-fold-and-whipstitch (überwendlicher Stich) hem, leaving one hem unfinished to show the layers. One of the finished edges is visible in the picture next to the yellow number "5".

In my blue doublet, all the points for the hose and the cuisses run through two thicknesses of very strong canvas. I do not feel like that part is overbuilt. People who use a lendenier of two layers of canvas don't feel that it is overbuilt either.

[Indianer]

Alright, so you finished the bottom edge of the back with the double-fold and whipstitch - orange marking. The fabric edges were folded inwards for that, so they do not end blind and open and frizzle out bit by bit. Yes?

Then, the blue rolls where pieces finish against each other - they are not truly "rolls", they are also "just" folded over twice so the blue facing doesn't end open. As drawn. Yes?

Question remains - any special treatment to connect the blue rolls? Red?

[Sean M]

Alright, so you finished the bottom edge of the back with the double-fold and whipstitch - orange marking. The fabric edges were folded inwards for that, so they do not end blind and open and frizzle out bit by bit. Yes?

Then, the blue rolls where pieces finish against each other - they are not truly "rolls", they are also "just" folded over twice so the blue facing doesn't end open. As drawn. Yes?

Question remains - any special treatment to connect the blue rolls? Red?

pourpoint_showing_suspension_for_hose_and_cuisses_labeled 2.jpg

The red seams were placed right side to right side and backstitched. Then each seam allowance was folded twice over itself wrong side to wrong side and whipstitched down just like on the pourpoint of Charles du Blois. In the future I would probably use an aketon seam for a relatively heavy pourpoint like this one.

Whether you roll or fold the fabric depends on how thick it is (including all the padding). From a functional point of view, what matters is whether the raw edges are exposed or hidden. You can get away with a single-fold hem on fulled wool, but on other fabrics it will tend to fray. See MoL-textiles-and-clothing for an overview of seam finishes on woollen, worsted (Kammwoll), and silk textiles from 14th century London.

The seam allowances at the bottom of the doublet were folded towards each other then finished with some seam, maybe a whipstitch, I would have to go get the doublet.

Maybe I should hurry up creating a series of photos or diagrams of seams and finishes but I have a lot of other tasks.

[Indianer]

Thanks again Sean, nearly there!

Now...You have demonstrated Construction #1.

Would Your tailoring as shown in the example also go for #2? i.e., could I make a version for just supporting armor with the stitches You have shown there?


EDIT: As I wrote this I realize - of course not. #2 is structurally different. So, what remains of the question is: Could I make a version for just supporting armor with the stitches You have shown there?

[Sean M]

I I think you could. Give me a few days and I can scan and send you Ilse Fingerlin's article in German on the canvas doublet from Kloster Alpirsbach.

Edit: Rogier van der Weyden's St. John Altarpiece seems to show some of the seam allowance on the inside of the executioner's doublet (Wams) https://artsandculture.google.com/asset ... FNG5kFjuiw Usually, by this date the hems of the lining are completely hidden.

Fenrix could try an arming cote or doublet out of one layer of heavy canvas and one layer of medium-weight linen and it might work, but I would start with the two layers of canvas because people who depended on these clothes had at least that much. I don't know his body or the climate where he fights but I know what medieval and 16th century tailors thought was best practice (and what materials their customers paid for). And I have spent days fencing in the blue doublet on hot (25-30* in the shade) humid Bavarian summers and was no more or less uncomfortable than I would have been wearing anything or nothing (sunburn and heating from direct sun contact on skin is a thing!)

[Indianer]

I have inspected the painting. First...this is worrysome. The painter clearly shows holes where the jugulars are, remnants of a vetebral canal and what would be the throat. He has seen this at least once, and in detail...

Anyhow, the seam allowance - you mean on the far right, in the brown lining? The texture is more like leather, but assuming it would be fabric: This is the only place I see what could be a seam allowance. All other allowances are entirely hidden. Must be folded over to the inside,towards the canvas in the middle (construction 2, yes?). If that interpretation is right, it would mean that construction is entirely different from your padded doublet. Indeed, the inside seams in the painting, except for the one with the allowance, lokk like your outside seams.

Or am I going completely off chart here?

I for one just spent another day wakeboarding at the north shore. Well, on a lake right behind. I'm not a kiter. Greetings, countryman!

[Sean M]

Anyhow, the seam allowance - you mean on the far right, in the brown lining? The texture is more like leather, but assuming it would be fabric: This is the only place I see what could be a seam allowance. All other allowances are entirely hidden. Must be folded over to the inside,towards the canvas in the middle (construction 2, yes?). If that interpretation is right, it would mean that construction is entirely different from your padded doublet. Indeed, the inside seams in the painting, except for the one with the allowance, lokk like your outside seams.

It is definitely hard to interpret and we have no new techniques in guild rules, no published lists of materials, and no surviving doublets from the period 1430-1490 to help us. I am pretty sure that the beige material is linen or hemp cloth because none of the hundreds of doublets (and lists of materials for doublets and specifications for doublets in guild rules) I have studied has a leather lining. So either it is the canvas (and this doublet has two layers) or it is the lining (and this doublet has three layers). One wild guess is that this is a doublet with red fustian over canvas over white linen, and the linen lining was removed for washing and never replaced. If so, the center-back seam is exposed on the inside because that seam will be hidden and protected when the lining is put in.

Here is one possible sketch of how that doublet might be constructed.





If you want photos of a doublet being made by method 2, there are hundreds of them in The Modern Maker vol. 1 by Matthew Gnagy.

Edit: added link to the St. John altarpiece by Rogier van der Weyden

[Indianer]

Sean, I am trying to follow up on this with my notes. I am pondering over the construction #2 (heavy skeleton core like in modern suits).

1. With the Grande Assiettes tailoring, there is a small gusset under the armscye, between the large front and back pieces. Since it is such a narrow insert, will it be made in the same fashion as the big parts? Facing stretched over core?
   .
   .
2. To my previous post, regarding the red lines, you said

   The red seams were placed right side to right side and backstitched. Then each seam allowance was folded twice over itself wrong side to wrong side and whipstitched down. In the future I would probably use an aketon seam.

   

   
   
   --> Is this here what you mean with the first step "right side to right side and backstitched"? Applied to our example, it would be step 2 in the drawing I made.

   

I am rather proud of my mockup. Please tell me it's accurate..
Best, Indi

[Sean M]

Hi Indi,

I like the drawing! The only thing I would change is that in 2. the two cloths usually touch each other all over like this.



You could also do this step with a sewing machine if the doublet is not too thick.

Then you spread the two pieces of fabric apart to protect the cut edges.



PS. Until 15 September Sartor in Czechia is selling heavy linen for USD 10 / meter https://www.sartorbohemia.com/heavy-lin ... ue_z15184/

[Indianer]

Hi Sean! THank you so much getting back to me I'm thrilled to get this sorted out on my end.

With the addendum on 2, you mean - my layering and the stitching is correct. But I tilted the seam allowance up, the pieces abutting like in your 2nd photo. In practice, one would just lay the 2 pieces flat on top of each other and sew. Like here:

practical layout.jpg (11.78 KiB) Viewed 21088 times

Yes?

[Sean M]

Looks fine to me!

In construction 2, you can do the lining the same way as the outer fabric (only with the seam allowance on the other side of the fabric) or fancier ways that Matthew Gnagy talks about.

[Indianer]

You mean the lining also wrapped over the core..?

[Sean M]

You mean the lining also wrapped over the core..?

In construction 2 (like a Sakko) you can put in the lining like this:



So its only fastened to the rest of the garment at the hems (cuffs / bottom edge / neck opening).

[Indianer]

My bleeding fingers produce a new abomination. Mercyful Master, lend your insight...

I went looking for Gnagys books. In all honesty, for the bit I need the price is not commensurate. But I did unearth his video tutorial on sewing a doublet...that'll take a few days I reckon. In the meantime, with the above for Construction #2 I hope to get close. This attempt still is a profile view of the red seams as I understand them..

EDIT: Just gave me the complete story of how a sakko is made. In the beginning it was surprisingly calming, meditative work that. Now my eyes bleed. Anyway...I am fairly certain that I understood Your deliberations correctly Sean. My previous drawing is also pretty spot-on. Now to rejuvenation...

[Indianer]

So...my previous post and diagram assume the lining to be a sort of inner jacket, really only sewn to the outer shell in a few spots (Neck, bottom, cuffs). I realize this would put all the strain from wearing a garment and moving in it on the lining, making it impossible to use finer cloths.

Modern suits are made of Facing and Canvas core or Canvas inlays where strength is needed. They consist of a large back and two large front- and side parts. Each major part has a lining attached as patch first.

After the outside Facing has been connected, the lining patches are folded over and connected separately.

So...Is this the "fancier way" of Gnagy you talked about?
And is it really viable to make the lining an inside jacket? I mean...assuming it would hold up to the strain of wearing, when I sweat I'll sweat through both parts. Both have to be washed. Why make the inside easily removable then?

[Sean M]

Hi Indianer,

I am trying to think of the best way to communicate some of these ideas. If I have the right scraps of cloth, I might be able to make up a little model (or maybe I could try some more drawings). In the city where I live I don't have affordable access to heavy linen or hemp canvas so I do not have scraps of canvas left over from other projects.

I have only made two full-sized garments which used some of Gnagy's ideas and they are back in Innsbruck. And right now I am focussed on woodworking. So I don't understand all of his ideas and I have trouble explaining them.

Watching that video is a good idea but I would have to study the video and The Modern Maker, Vol. 1 to see the similarities and differences.

So...my previous post and diagram assume the lining to be a sort of inner jacket, really only sewn to the outer shell in a few spots (Neck, bottom, cuffs). I realize this would put all the strain from wearing a garment and moving in it on the lining, making it impossible to use finer cloths.

Modern tailored clothes are often lined with fine Bemberg cloth and the lining is not under strain. If anything, you can make the lining a bit looser than the facing! Gnagy teaches you other specific strategies for cutting the lining differently than the facing and putting it in to the garment.

And is it really viable to make the lining an inside jacket? I mean...assuming it would hold up to the strain of wearing, when I sweat I'll sweat through both parts. Both have to be washed. Why make the inside easily removable then?

It is not a good idea to wash garments made by construction 2 by soaking them in hot soapy water. It loosens the inner structure, and it damages any woollen components. Historically, it could also cause the dyes to bleed. My understanding is that before the 20th century, the weekly laundry routine consisted of cleaning specific stains on woollen outer garments and washing linens in soapy water.

Clothes made of linen, wool, and silk don't get stinky as quickly as clothes of cotton and polyester. And in a world without mass-produced soap, running water, or power looms, standards of cleanliness had to be lower than today.

Gnagy believes that the linings of 16th/17th century doublets were made to be removed and washed with the linens when they got too smelly. I am not a specialist in that period so I can not tell you why he thinks this. He was a professional tailor for TV and film, so his clothes survive very heavy use under hot lights.

[Sean M]

Sean, I am trying to follow up on this with my notes. I am pondering over the construction #2 (heavy skeleton core like in modern suits).

1. With the Grande Assiettes tailoring, there is a small gusset under the armscye, between the large front and back pieces. Since it is such a narrow insert, will it be made in the same fashion as the big parts? Facing stretched over core?

I never finished the doublet which was made like that and had a grande assiette. In general, I think you want all the sections of the bodice to have the same construction, and all the sections of the sleeves to have the same construction.

The surviving garments with construction 2 have different types of sleeve.

[Sean M]

I could make a mockup of a doublet bodice in about 1:5 scale, but just drafting the pattern will take 1 or 2 hours. How about a deal: I will make and photograph the mini doublet, if you agree to pick a place and a time and make a mock doublet out of cheap cotton or similar (just one layer, to test the pattern on your body).

[Indianer]

I could make a mockup of a doublet bodice in about 1:5 scale, but just drafting the pattern will take 1 or 2 hours. How about a deal: I will make and photograph the mini doublet, if you agree to pick a place and a time and make a mock doublet out of cheap cotton or similar (just one layer, to test the pattern on your body).

Oh making one for myself is the plan! So yes, that's coming. I still need to configure my workbench (welding table) for that and figure out where the lacing points go though.. WIP.

But I did not mean to push you to do work you do not even need yourself. I think I got the idea:

1. Ms. Kelly's Grande Assiettes pattern
2. executed two times, as Canvas and heavy Linen Shell + as Lining (Facing stretched over Canvas like in a modern suit)
3. Lining "copy" sewn in only at Neck, Cuffs and Bottom with long stitches for easy removal

• In stark contrast: Modern Sakko like here, where lining is applied as Patches with fine stichtes to each major shell piece first. Shell pieces are then connected outside to outside, Lining overlaps are connected after. Impossible to get apart ever again

Grande Assiettes front pattern:

CdB_front_drawing.jpg (11.39 KiB) Viewed 20043 times

[Sean M]

Hi Indianer,

here is the thread where I made a doublet of white linen with grande assiettes using some of Matthew Gnagy's ideas.

[Indianer]

That's amazing I didn't know about that one. Let me read through that, see what, if any, questions remain after. Thanks!

[Indianer]

Hi Indianer,

Is it really viable to make the lining an inside jacket? I mean...assuming it would hold up to the strain of wearing, when I sweat I'll sweat through both parts. Both have to be washed. Why make the inside easily removable then?

It is not a good idea to wash garments made by construction 2 by soaking them in hot soapy water. It loosens the inner structure, and it damages any woollen components. Historically, it could also cause the dyes to bleed. My understanding is that before the 20th century, the weekly laundry routine consisted of cleaning specific stains on woollen outer garments and washing linens in soapy water.

Clothes made of linen, wool, and silk don't get stinky as quickly as clothes of cotton and polyester. And in a world without mass-produced soap, running water, or power looms, standards of cleanliness had to be lower than today.

Gnagy believes that the linings of 16th/17th century doublets were made to be removed and washed with the linens when they got too smelly. I am not a specialist in that period so I can not tell you why he thinks this. He was a professional tailor for TV and film, so his clothes survive very heavy use under hot lights.

This is actually a pretty big point.. over in your other thread 'A Doublet of White Linen' you used construction #2. How should one wash that? It's made from linen canvass Facing & Interlining, and linen-silk twill Lining. No wool or cotton. Even if it were a cotton canvass.. It should be able to withstand handwashing, no? Machine? Ok, bit rough. I get that. But...hand washing? I wouldn't want to sew the lining back in every third time I wore my armour.

[Sean M]

Here is a photo of my short gown which shows how finishing the vertical opening of a garment like in my diagram of the doublet in the Hans Memling painting can work. The facing is cut wide, folded wrong side to wrong side, and sewed down then the lining is put on top of it. The buttonholes go through a layer of facing, a layer of interlining, and a layer of facing.

This is actually a pretty big point.. over in your other thread 'A Doublet of White Linen' you used construction #2. How should one wash that? It's made from linen canvass Facing & Interlining, and linen-silk twill Lining. No wool or cotton. Even if it were a cotton canvass.. It should be able to withstand handwashing, no? Machine? Ok, bit rough. I get that. But...hand washing? I wouldn't want to sew the lining back in every third time I wore my armour.

That is one thing you would have to learn from experience! I hand wash the blue doublet occasionally. Everything will depend on the fabrics you use, whether you use the fabric-manipulation techniques which Gnagy teaches, and whether you wear your clothes camping where everyone gets a bit smelly, or indoors at schools.

But in general, when you think late medieval and 16th/17th century clothing, think of soaking in hot soapy water as a procedure for simple linen clothing such as shirts, not as something you do to most of your clothes after 3 wearings.

[Indianer]

In construction 2 (like a Sakko) you can put in the lining like this:



So its only fastened to the rest of the garment at the hems (cuffs / bottom edge / neck opening).

Hi Sean,

after a few days of brooding over it, I gotta ask: In this episode 6 of sewing a 1618 man's doublet at 17:28, Gnagy puts in the lining. On the assembled back he starts by sewing it to the center-back seam allowance. I assume that on your doublet of white linen you did not do that, nor would 1500 A.D. construction #2 doublets have done that, right? That way, taking it out for washing wouldn't be a mammoth task anymore. I do wonder however...can you attest to the (dis-)comfort in all that looseness and wobble in the lining? did you ever finish the white linen one and get a chance to wear it?

[Sean M]

In construction 2 (like a Sakko) you can put in the lining like this:



So its only fastened to the rest of the garment at the hems (cuffs / bottom edge / neck opening).

Hi Sean,

after a few days of brooding over it, I gotta ask: In this episode 6 of sewing a 1618 man's doublet at 17:28, Gnagy puts in the lining. On the assembled back he starts by sewing it to the center-back seam allowance. I assume that on your doublet of white linen you did not do that, nor would 1500 A.D. construction #2 doublets have done that, right? That way, taking it out for washing wouldn't be a mammoth task anymore. I do wonder however...can you attest to the (dis-)comfort in all that looseness and wobble in the lining? did you ever finish the white linen one and get a chance to wear it?

Blazers and Sakkos usually have a loose lining. I did not finish the white linen doublet and now it is in Tirol while I am in Canada. The photos and text in the other thread are the best documentation of what I did six years ago.

Also, the doublet of white linen was shaped with pad stitching. That is one of the specific techniques (like stretching wool cloth with steam) which might cause problems in the wash. A simpler doublet from the same materials would be easier to wash.

I hope I restart the black fustian doublet this winter so I have some fresh experience.