Could swords split Greathelms?

[Indianer]

Could swords split Greathelms?

>> No.

For the longest time, that would have been my answer. A blade can not cut steel, even iron. And beneath a greathelm there's a cerveilliere or bascinet, so even if it were to delaminate catastrophically, still no blood.

But then...what am I seeing here, miniature 45v? Not once, not twice, no, 4 times in one depiction, 1 fatal... Is this from some mythical text, like the Arthus saga?

Manuscript BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois
Dating 1370-1380
Location Milan, Italy




There are more, although in some it appears the artist just wanted to show some blood and gore, and the heads were the most technically amenable thing to draw with a blade through them. Artistically, crossing two figures can quickly become troublesome as it clutters the image and obscures contours. Often I figure, artists would have minimized that effect by going for the heads. My original drawing however has a clarity to it strikes me differently than the following:

Maciejowski Bible 41

.......................................................
EDIT: I realize I probably put this in the wrong forum. Sorry...I only ever frequent this, force of habit. Admins, maybe move to historical research?

[Chris Gilman]

Depending on how old you are, you may or may not remember the convention of drawing black crosses over a cartoon characters eyes, to illustrate them being dead. Which of course is not literal or realistic.
I suspect, given the unlikely chance a helmet could be breached with single handed sword, this is the artists way of showing a dead or injured person.

[John Vernier]

Guiron le Courtois is an Arthurian romance, and so we need to beware of the tale's fantastical elements, probably in the text as well as the pictures, just as with any modern fantasy. The trope of cleaving someone's helm in half turns up fairly often in medieval romances, and I think it became a convention to express the might of the heros of the story. In an illustration, it leaves no doubt about who is coming out better off in a conflict.

By the way, I suggest that caution applies to the clothing and equipment of the characters in the story, and I mention this because this manuscript (and the related Lancelot manuscript) are so widely referenced by reenactors these days. I believe the armor and clothing in these manuscripts is exceptionally well observed and probably quite accurate as far as it goes, but remembering the Arthurian context, this really is a fantasy about noble personages of a mythically elevated court. So everything we see is probably aspirational. The courtiers around Bernabo Visconti may have seen themselves in these characters, but real armies and raiding parties were unlikely to have been this elegant.

Another aside: I have never found a good description of the text of Guiron le Courtois. I had hoped to find one to help better understand the miniatures in this manuscript. There is an edition of the complete middle French text, but it is enormous and middle French. Does anyone know if a synopsis exists, in any language?

[Indianer]

Hello CHris, I am 3...3, or 32? Somesth like that. I do. And I like to get behind your view.

Many thanks John, I had been hoping one of you scholarly educated people would chime in. I do not know how much of a synopsis you need, but...is asked ChatGPT on your behalf. Heard of it I am sure. It has proven quite useful to me so far. Here is my inquiry:

Hello. This is about a medieval manuscript, Guiron le Courtois. It is an Arthurian romance. Are you familiar with it?

Yes, I'm familiar with "Guiron le Courtois." It is an Arthurian romance that belongs to the genre of medieval literature known as the Matter of Britain. The manuscript tells the story of Guiron, a knight of the Round Table, and his adventures in the Arthurian world. The narrative often involves chivalric exploits, courtly love, and encounters with various mythical creatures.

"Guiron le Courtois" is part of a larger body of Arthurian literature that emerged during the medieval period. The Arthurian legends, including works like the "Lancelot-Grail" cycle, "Tristan and Iseult," and the "Morte d'Arthur" by Sir Thomas Malory, have been influential in shaping Western literature and folklore. If you have specific questions about "Guiron le Courtois" or if there's something specific you would like to know, feel free to ask!

EDIT: I know this is a bit like referring to Google. But: ChatGPT knows the entire bible front to back, every word. (I think). It knows Japanese folklore and genesis myths in different versions. So...it might have been fed this as well. Can't hurt to try.

[John Vernier]

I've never thought of asking ChatGPT for historical literature guidance. I may have to try that occasionally and see if it improves. The Wikipedia entry on Guiron Le Courtois is a bit more specific, and has some bibliography. But what I am hoping for is a summary of the different episodes of the romance just to get an idea of what's what - who is involved in all those conversation scenes, what are they talking about, who is saving whom, who is killing whom. I know it's a lot to hope for!

[Sean M]

The ARLIMA website does not point to anything in English or German on any version of the Guiron le Courtoise poems https://www.arlima.net/ad/cycle_de_guir ... rtois.html Edit: there is one chapter in this book https://doi.org/10.4324/9781003255475

Composed between 1235 and 1240 after the Lancelot-Graal (Lancelot-Grail) and
the Tristan en prose (Prose Tristan), Guiron le Courtois (Guiron the Courteous) is
considered the third main Old French Arthurian prose cycle and a harbinger of the
Western novel. Its oldest nucleus is composed of three romances. The frst is the
Roman de Méliadus (Romance of Méliadus), and recounts the adventures of Tristan’s
father, King Méliadus of Leonnoys. The second is the Roman de Guiron (Romance
of Guiron), which, together with the third, the Suite Guiron (Continuation of the
Romance of Guiron), relates the deeds of Guiron le Courtois, a new prototype of the
Arthurian knight, and of the members of his family, a fctional French royal lineage.
Recycled and rebranded over the centuries, notably by the Visconti in Milan and
Charles V and Francis I of France, all of whom identifed with the story’s heroes, the
Guiron cycle can be regarded as the basis of one of the richest textual and cultural
networks of the late Middle Ages. Many manuscript and printed witnesses of the
cycle were destined for the royal and aristocratic libraries of the late Middle Ages,
with their complete collections of Arthurian works. They were ordered and sold by
book merchants such as the Rapondi of Lucca, and manufactured in distinguished
workshops, which could count on copyists the likes of Michau Gonnot and on book
illustrators such as the Master of Guiron le Courtois, one of the most prominent
fourteenth-century Italian artists. (She goes on to talk about how only a few scholars have been interested in Guiron since 1550, no 19th century operas or oil paintings)

Two of the knights with bleeding wounds in their head are riding away, so they are not badly injured. Russ Mitchell told a story about someone in Hungary having a finger cut off while fencing on horseback with steel gauntlets. I can believe that the right man swinging the right sword from a moving horse against a thin bascinet of bad iron could create a visible crack or dent and cause the person inside the bascinet to bleed. Then all the painter has to do is paint the blood outside the helmet to communicate that this strike hurt the person inside.

[Graham Shearlaw]

It's a maybe, it will take a strong blow but if the helmet is poorly made then it might fail.
I.E. a riveted helmet can have rivets shear or the rivet holes tear open.
A helmet that's made of thin metal might get dented or have the metal tear.

It would be likely that such a helmet would be one that was criminally badly made or repaired, the medieval cut an shut so to speak.

[Mark D. Chapman]

Couple of thoughts:
1) If you look at the Maciejowski Bible (12th century illuminations), you see this same helm cleaving but only in relation to two kings in combat. The other injuries to minor players are far more realistic and possible. Based on this and what we know about modern experiments and materials, It is extremely unlikely. However it is not impossible. Not in the sense of cleaving half or all the way through the helm, but in that a single plate could have a buried flaw that splits just that plate catastrophically in response to a blow. (I once cleaved through a sword block while steel fencing this way.)

2) When you see blood coming from the helm, but it is not split... Especially if around the forehead or eyes, remember there can be a second cause, not due to helm metal failure. The helm is suspended from a padded suspension liner. It is possible for a strong blow to drive an edge of the helm or inner surface against the skull that causes a skin contusion that then bleeds. I witnessed exactly this happen at a jousting performance where two fighters with rebated steel swords were fighting on foot and a block was missed.

My thoughts,
Mark

[Ernst]

The 1322 London Armourers' regulation, cited in ffoulkes, indicates reused bascinets were used, even among the nobility, at great risk.
"Also, seeing that as well lord as man have found theirs to be old bacinets, battered and vamped-up, but recently covered by persons who know nothing of the trade; such bacinets being then put away in some secret place, and carried into the country, away from the City, to sell; and that in the City of such men no cognizance can be taken, whether the same be good or bad; a thing from which great peril might ensue to the King and to his people, and disgraceful scandal to the armourers aforesaid, ..."

One must presume the "great peril" to be death.

[Ernst]

Another factor which should not be overlooked is physiological. The "fight or flight" response, adrenal surge, or display of "hysterical strength" is not unreported in combat conditions.