Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

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Indianer
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Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by Indianer »

Dear All,

I have been reading old threads for a project on knees and found a curious entry:
Kristoffer wrote: Thu May 07, 2015 2:00 am Getting back to what James said about the difference in spacing of the rivets of the inside vs outside of the leg..

This picture shows why there is a curve happening between the greave and cuisse:

Image

Is the width of the lames different from side to side or do you make them symmetrical and just move the pivot point (like I do on gauntlets for example)?
Wade provided me with photographs of his A-213 from a distortion-free perspective. (WADE, you never added these to the Gauntlets main page)

Mostly extended
Mostly compressed
bit bent
Trace of Mostly compressed state
Trace of Mostly compressed state
I traced those and indeed, the lame proximal to the metacarpal as well as the vambrace seem to be installed slanted with respect to the wrist plate, creating a concavity on the thumb side. Is this what Kristoffer (hey bro!) meant? EDIT 3: With the sliders I can't be quite sure that what I see is not just wishful thinking.

EDIT 1: sry, A-213, not A-98. Corrected the link.
EDIT 2: added "concavity" sub-sentence. Sry, this post was hard to assemble.
Indianer
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by Indianer »

So, I've had a veeeery long session with ChatGPT. It resulted in a small epiphany. A few facts:

1 - Leg Armor
1a. When I bend my lower leg back (=flex it) it does not swing on a plane that will superimpose its axis with the femur. Instead, it swings sligthly outwards/to lateral as well.
1b. The slanted installation of symmetrically cut poleyn lames creates through the leg armor a lateral concavity at the knee, following its natural curve and also accomodating the biomechanics of lower leg flexion.
1c. The lateral concavity in the knee joint facilitates the swing of the lower leg along a plane that is not coincident with the femur.



2 - Gothic Gauntlets
2a. When I flex my hand it behaves similar to the lower leg in that it does not follow a plane that would keep the metacarpals centered on the proximal-distal axis as it is in the extended hand.
.....Unlike a simple hinge motion, the fingers tend to curl, and the metacarpals and phalanges follow a curved trajectory.
.....This curved trajectory during flexion is a functional adaptation that allows for a more efficient grip and manipulation of objects.

2b. Similar to the lateral concavity in the knee joint, there's a lateral concavity in the flexed hand.

2c. The slanted installation of gauntlet components aligns with the natural contours and movements observed during hand flexion, optimizing both functionality and comfort.
.....I infer that the metacarpal lames (not plate!) are cut symmetrical, but installed to build a slight lateral concavity.
.....As a gauntlet is assembled in a drooping state, this concavity might not reflect in the extended state that I have traced and looked at so far.


I do not think I'll get any farther with this alone. Some have a pic that shows what the brother would have meant? I'd be grateful. My best, Indi
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Kristoffer
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by Kristoffer »

I am not sure I can help you enough through written means, but I will try to give you some pointers.

There is very little that is symmetric in a gauntlet and bad modern gauntlets are often built with an abundance of symmetry. This is very different from how historical gauntlets look and are made.

This is a pretty good picture showing a top perspective of a very nice gauntlet:

Image

If you look at the center crease of the cuff and imagine continuing that line across the back of the hand to the middle of the knuckles and then all the way to the center of the foremost finger lame, there are a couple of distinct angle changes happening. To simplify the idea of this is to say that the line changes angle at two distinct points, one at the wrist and one at the knuckles. Compare this to modern sport gauntlets and you will see that very often this line is pretty much straight all the way through the whole gauntlet.

To make it more complex, there is really a sort of "curve" through the whole piece with slight variation in spacing and shape on each lame and the rivets on the pinky side will be spaced more closely together than the rivets on the index finger side. I tend to punch all the holes on the metacarpal lames on the pinky side first, use nuts and bolts to hold them together and then fuzz around with the lames until I am happy with everything and punch the index finger side holes on one lame at a time, assemble with a nut and a bolt, then repeat for each lame. The same thing then happens with the finger lames separately.

To pattern gauntlets, I find that making the cuff first and get that right is where I like to start. I then pattern the metacarpal section and finally the finger lames. That is the order I also build gauntlets. Usually, the whole thing can be patterned pretty well and easy in cardboard since the finished lames usually lack very complex shapes, except the knuckle plates that requires some extra work.

Gauntlets are somehow very simple and at the same time very complex pieces. They gave me a lot of headache before I was able to wrap my brain around them and I still struggle with some models and I cannot really say why. Playing with real antique gauntlets have helped me tremendously and this is something I can highly recommend to anyone who is interested in making some. That of course goes for all types of armour, not only gauntets.
Last edited by Kristoffer on Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kristoffer Metsälä
Indianer
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by Indianer »

Thank You Kristoffer, really. Now that I have confirmed what I am looking for it'll be much more straight forward to find that pattern in Golls refs. Although I expect the sliders will obfuscate most of it.

Thank you man. Have a good day!
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Kristoffer
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by Kristoffer »

German gothic armour seems to have used sliding rivets frequently wich allows things to be built more "straight" since the sliding rivets takes care of a lot of angles and curves. If you look in Macs Blog post, he has a nice "chapter" on building some gothic gauntlets, that should help you a lot.
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by wcallen »

A-213 seems to be on the main gauntlets page. Should have been there for a while. It is a single gauntlet, so it just shows up as a single in the image.
Kristoffer did a nice job of emphasizing the non-straightness of a gauntlet with a later one. Just for fun, here is another one (again, later):
https://www.european-armour.com/images/A-227-a.jpg
And you can get some idea of how funky things get as a "gothic" gauntlet moves here:
https://www.european-armour.com/movies/ ... vement.mp4

Wade
Indianer
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by Indianer »

Hello Wade, and thanks for the input! Yes, A-227 shows it nicely. I just didn't know what I was looking for earlier, hence the long and complex deliberation with ChatGPT.

A-213 is there yes, but the trick-shots you took for me, linked above, are not on the gauntlet page. They are only accessible with the links you provided for me back then.
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Re: Angular Lame installation in Gothic Gauntlets

Post by wcallen »

Indianer wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:46 pm Hello Wade, and thanks for the input! Yes, A-227 shows it nicely. I just didn't know what I was looking for earlier, hence the long and complex deliberation with ChatGPT.

A-213 is there yes, but the trick-shots you took for me, linked above, are not on the gauntlet page. They are only accessible with the links you provided for me back then.
Bad me. They are linked into the main page now.

Wade
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