Armor Questions

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:41 am

Alright. I'm a master of all things maille, but I'm just about to get started in the creation of plate armor, and I have a few questions:

1) What is the material used in plate armor (My local hardware store has galvanized sheets, aluminum sheets, and "weldable" sheets)

2) What gauge is most adequate for combat-ready plate armor, specifically a helmet and vambraces.

3) How does the gauge system work? Is it like wire, where the larger the gauge, the thinner the metal?

4) Where can I find larger sheets of metal? My local hardware store supplies only 2x2 or 2x3 sheets of metal.

5) What tools do I require?

6) Does anyone have the link of the page which sold "Ironwood" mallets?

7) How many feet can a pair of right-cut, round-bladed Michigan Industrial Tools aviation snips cut in the gauge used for plate armor?

How is one supposed to cut through a railroad track? (for an anvil)

9) What is the very simplest plate armor project to start with. I have no experience with hammering metal, and very few tools.

10) Where can I find an article about how to alter a piece of railroad track to make an anvil (the horn, bevel holes, curved edge, etc)

No flames please, because I have already searched through the articles here and all sorts of other websites, and I haven't found answers to these questions.

-Alex Gravlin-

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 10:01 am

Well you'll need to be more specific on some of those.

Combat ready for what type of combat?

For the tools what's your budget for now?

Materials used for plate armour. Aluminum, stainless steel, mild steel and high and medium carbon steel. Mild steel is the best to start with because it's cheap and easy to work with.

The gauge system works like wire gauge. But there are also different gauge systems like wire gauges so you could have two pieces of 14 gauge metal with different gauge systems that are different thicknesses.

You can find larger sheets of metal in the yellow pages. Look under steel. Failing that look for places that make heating ducts and things like that. Or call around at the local scrap yards and see if the sell scrap by the pound.

Not sure if the mallets are on Gundo's website anymore so your best bet on the ironwood mallets is to just post a want ad on the classifieds/want ads board here on the archive. Ironwood (the guy who makes them) frequents this board.

On the aviation snips. Huh? They'll cut as many feet as you want to. But only will cut the gauges you can manage to cut. Some people can cut as thick as 14 gauge with aviation snips. But for normal people 16 guage is really difficult but possible and 18 gauge is not bad. Of course this is speaking of mild steel. Other types of steel will be different. A good low cost tool for a beginner wanting to cut steel 16gauge and thicker is a jigsaw with metal cutting blades. Slow and noisy but does work.

Best way to cut up a piece of railroad track is with a plasma cutter. Alternately you could use a bandsaw set up for cutting metal. But you'll find that a horn on an anvil isn't extremly important for making armour especially when just starting out. So just a hunk of railroad track will work for ya for now. There's some articles about making an anvil from rail on http://www.keenjunk.com

Simple plate projects to start off with include things like a coat of plates, splinted stuff or spaulders. If you're stubborn enough you can do most of the simpler armours as a first project.

None of this is a flame.

Some things that an armourer can't do without. Dishing stump (see article in the essays section of the archive on how to make one). Hammers hammers and more hammers you'll never have too many hammers. Look for cheapo ones since you're gonna end up modifying them anyway. Or if you see hammers at yard sales, flea markets etc. that are used they're good too. Something to cut metal with and something to put holes in metal with as well as a halfround mill bastard file.

Hope this helps some. Answer the questions I've asked above and I'll be able to help more on those questions. Lemme know if you've got more questions or need any clarification.

There's an excellent primer article in the essays section at http://www.arador.com you should read if you haven't already.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:03 am

Well, combat with real blades. I'm not sure that i'll go about this combat any time soon, but just in-case. By combat-ready, I mean it can hold up as well as the original armor in the olden times.

My budget is currently about 130 dollars.

My hardware store sells galvanized, aluminum, and "weldable" steel. Which one of those sounds like Mild Steel to you?

By "how many feet can the aviation snips cut", I mean how many feet are they able to cut through sheet metal before they need replacement? (dulled blade, break)

I can't seem to find the track-to-anvil essay on the Keen Junk page.

Thanks
-Alex-

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:15 am

Ok well if you're just going to buy one sheet of steel go with 16 gauge. Historical thickness varied from part to part as well as depending on time periods and even within a single piece. But 16 gauge will be a little heavier overall but will pretty much all stand up.

You're probably going to need more money then you've got right now. So sell some maille to help fund your plate armouring (that's what I do).

To start you want something that is not aviation snips to cut metal with. Check out flea-markets etc. and get a jigsaw. Then go buy blades for cutting metal with.

The aviation snip durability question can't be answered. It all depends on what and where there are imperfections in the steel in the blades, what shapes you're cutting etc. Basically there are too many variables to give an answer. They're only rated for up to 18 gauge mild steel so if you're cutting thicker stuff they'll eventually break. If you really want to use aviation snips get a pair with a lifetime warrante and an easy return policy. That way your snips will last forever.

Steel at a hardware store is generally 18gauge and under. Plus it's really overpriced. Call around to the places I suggested and ask them for 16 gauge cold rolled mild steel.

Galvanized steel is most likely mild steel that's been galvanized. But you don't want to make armour from galvanized steel. No idea what the heck weldable steel is. It's possible to weld every single type of steel.

I find the keenjunk site really confusing. Someone posted a link to the part about the railroad anvil once and I went and saw it but probably would be able to navigate my way back to it again and I don't have it bookmarked sorry.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:21 am

You might want to check out this article here:

http://www.arador.com/articles/armourstart.html

Steve

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:29 am

That's the article I was talking about thanks for the link Steve.

Just had a thought. With your limited tools and budget and your knowledge of maille you might want to start off with some maille and plate type armours.

Here's a site with lots of reference material so you can see what I'm talking about. For most of this stuff you'd be using 18guage steel or thinner which means you can use the aviation snips for cutting just fine.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/page9.html

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:42 am

Weldable steel means ungalvanized mild steel. They call it weldable because you wont zinc poison yourself if you weld it and so when you go to buy steel to weld the uninformed will choose the weldable stuff.

Aelric

Mark Elrick

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 12:32 pm

Alright. I'm a master of all things maille, but I'm just about to get started in the creation of plate armor, and I have a few questions:

I'm consumed with glee at the thought of a self-proclaimed "master of all things maille" with a $130 budget, and who is confused by some of these issues, but okay.

1) What is the material used in plate armor (My local hardware store has galvanized sheets, aluminum sheets, and "weldable" sheets)
Historically, it was mostly iron, roughly equivalent to modern mild steel. There are some instances, particularly in the later middle ages [when some armorers had access to the equivalent of modern 1050 steel], of successful and unsuccessful heat-treatment. My opinion of that is that they were unable to determine with any certainty if their steel actually had enough carbon to harden under heat-treatment. I assume that this is because they didn't know why some steel would harden, and some wouldn't.

2) What gauge is most adequate for combat-ready plate armor, specifically a helmet and vambraces.
Depends on the material. For the "weldable" mild steel from the hardware store, use 16ga. Still, full force fighting with steel blades will lead to injuries, because you will hit unarmored spots, eventually, so don't blame us when you cut your arm off.

3) How does the gauge system work? Is it like wire, where the larger the gauge, the thinner the metal?
Yup.

4) Where can I find larger sheets of metal? My local hardware store supplies only 2x2 or 2x3 sheets of metal.
Scrap yards may have some, much cheaper than actual steel yards. Look in the yellow pages under steel.

5) What tools do I require?
All of them.

6) Does anyone have the link of the page which sold "Ironwood" mallets?
www.wiseogre.com Look for the link about halfway down the left margin.

7) How many feet can a pair of right-cut, round-bladed Michigan Industrial Tools aviation snips cut in the gauge used for plate armor?
None. Use something else.

8) How is one supposed to cut through a railroad track? (for an anvil)
Matt covered this one really well.

9) What is the very simplest plate armor project to start with. I have no experience with hammering metal, and very few tools.
A pair of spaulders, IMO.

*edited to clean up bold tags

------------------
Gundobad,
Wise Ogre Armory
Wise Ogre Pic of the Day
Wise Ogre Armory T-shirts & more

Sanity is very rare. Every man almost, and every woman, has a dash of madness - R.W. Emerson

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

[This message has been edited by Gundo (edited 06-28-2001).]

Post by JT » Thu Jun 28, 2001 12:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Grandmaster Esplin:
1) What is the material used in plate armor (My local hardware store has galvanized sheets, aluminum sheets, and "weldable" sheets)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See the Archive essay at http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/essay__metal_dissertation.shtml

2) What gauge is most adequate for combat-ready plate armor, specifically a helmet and vambraces.

Probably 16ga, though your definition of "combat ready" would make me blanch in any gauge.

3) How does the gauge system work?

Bass-ackwards, just like wire.
However, the measurements are different. There are tables around, including one at Arador -- http://www.arador.com/construction/gauge.html

4) Where can I find larger sheets of metal?

Scrap yards, or metal dealers (look in the yellow pages under "Steel"). In the Mpls area, there's an entire page of listings, many with URLs.

5) What tools do I require?

See the following essays from the Archive:
- http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/essay__artskippy.shtml
- http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/gundo_make_your_tools/

------------------
-- jt --
Editor and part-time cook: The Armour Archive

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:15 pm

Less see...

Weldable Steel is Mild Steel.
That's what you want for closest to generi-Period.

Steel weapons come in all weights and sizes and people fight with them in all sorts of ways.
If you'll be working with a particular group, find out what their armour requirements are before you go buying stuff. If you don't have a group - AEMMA is an organisation that seems to be a focus in standardising things in full-weight rebated steel swordsmanship. For less than full weight, you may want to check the armour rules for SCA Schlagger fencing.
If you're in the New York area, and looking for folks to play with, get in touch with me at the email at my sig below.

The Easiest armour to make with no skills whatsoever is Lamellar.
You can find a fairly detailed "How To" from me at "The Red Kaganate" site (URL at my sig below).
I'd use 18 guage for that.
Aviation Snips are fine.
You should at the very least get a Jigsaw as well (as you get more into it, you'll want all sorts of other things).
Unless you have a real reason to, don't bother cutting the Railroad track (I assume you've got a piece rather than a whole railroad

) -- you'll just be using it for the flat/heavy/hunk-o-steel that it is.

If you don't know what you're doing, don't make a helmet -- buy one from folks who know what they're doing.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Langdon · Post by **Langdon** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:06 pm

Just to be curious, What all have you done with male to become grandmaster and to say "I'm a master of all things maille"?
ie. Have you made riveted and solid link and welded? Have you researched period pieces to see the differences in times and countries of origin?

Not trying to be a jerk, just wondering,

Langdon

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:27 pm

Geez, people. It's just a joke. I really enjoy making maille, and I've been making it since I was 9, so I decided to jokingly call myself the master of all things maille. And Gundo, how is knowledge of maille relevant in the knowledge of the things i've asked? Maille is a weave of rings from wire, and plate armor is the formation of sheet metal into pieces of armor.

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:36 pm

Norman: I would have to cut the railroad track, because a track segment is about 9 feet long. I think you've given me the best information here so far. Thanks everyone! (keep adding info if you feel the need to)

-Alex-

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:38 pm

Gundo was referring to the metals questions. Master of all things maille would indicate a good working knowledge of metals both modern and historical.

Tootin your own horn generally tends to irritate people here. If something's meant to be a joke put a smiley in so the people reading it will know that.

Also Gundo just seems to be in a bad mood today. And Langdon was hoping for a new source of knowledge in the areas he asked about. BTW feel free to start a new thread sharing any maille tips and tricks you've picked up along the way. I've been making maille for about 12 years. There other people around here who have been at it longer and still others who do it as a full time job. But there's always something new to learn so if you've got something to share people will appreciate it.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 4:22 pm

Besides we're just a bunch of snobs here anyway!!

At least that's what I heard....

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 06-28-2001).]

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:31 pm

Matt, how would "all things maille" refer to all aspects of armor-crafting? The term "maille" comes from the Latin 'macula' meaning net or mesh. That would signify chainmail.

-Alex-

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:38 pm

Don't worry, Grandmaster. All's good.

Steve

Abu MacGregor · Post by **Abu MacGregor** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:12 am

Originally posted by Grandmaster Esplin:
Alright. I'm a master of all things maille, but I'm just about to get started in the creation of plate armor, and I have a few questions:

1) What is the material used in plate armor (My local hardware store has galvanized sheets, aluminum sheets, and "weldable" sheets)

Plates are made of pottery, ceramics, glass, or plastics. Discussions of plastics are discouraged here.

2) What gauge is most adequate for combat-ready plate armor, specifically a helmet and vambraces.

An HO guage is the most popular, but in that medium personal accoutrements of the figures are so miniscule as to make such dimensions immaterial.

3) How does the gauge system work? Is it like wire, where the larger the gauge, the thinner the metal?

Yes.

4) Where can I find larger sheets of metal? My local hardware store supplies only 2x2 or 2x3 sheets of metal.

At the Larger Metal Stores. Look under Sheetmetal.

5) What tools do I require?

A lightsaber and a box of kitchen matches

6) Does anyone have the link of the page which sold "Ironwood" mallets?

No

7) How many feet can a pair of right-cut, round-bladed Michigan Industrial Tools aviation snips cut in the gauge used for plate armor?

As many as the distance a rat turd weighing 1.63 Kg would have to fall to break a #2 two by four by eight supported at both ends firmly, should the turd hit within 2.5 cm of centers of the two by four and at a perfect right angle. This assumes no wind, or sudden magnetic field aberrations.

How is one supposed to cut through a railroad track? (for an anvil)

A stinger missile works well, but leaves a lot of cleanup. We recommend the studied use of primercord.

9) What is the very simplest plate armor project to start with. I have no experience with hammering metal, and very few tools.

A codpiece, appropriate to your physique and station. A small flat metal piece should suffice for now, be careful to properly deburr.

10) Where can I find an article about how to alter a piece of railroad track to make an anvil (the horn, bevel holes, curved edge, etc)

Look in the King James Bible under Genesis, that's the best description of what you asked

No flames please, because I have already searched through the articles here and all sorts of other websites, and I haven't found answers to these questions.

-Alex Gravlin-[/B][/QUOTE]

Too late. You have to do some homework, we aren't tutors or babysitters.

Now, if you'll put that ego in your pocket and ask sparing, discrete questions, I'll bet you get some answers worth writing down.

[This message has been edited by Abu MacGregor (edited 06-29-2001).]

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Grandmaster Esplin:
Matt, how would "all things maille" refer to all aspects of armor-crafting? [Definition from Johnny Obvious deleted]
-Alex-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But Matt said: Gundo was referring to the metals questions. Master of all things maille would indicate a good working knowledge of metals both modern and historical.

So. If you're going to call yourself "Grandmaster", and restate your mastery in your post, I'm going to expect you to have a clue about metal. Period. If you had even the slightest clue, you would know that galvanization wasn't a known process in the Middle Ages.

Doing maille since you were nine sounds only a very little impressive, since the Underpants Gnomes have informed us that you're fourteen.

------------------
Gundobad,
Wise Ogre Armory
Wise Ogre Pic of the Day
Wise Ogre Armory T-shirts & more

Sanity is very rare. Every man almost, and every woman, has a dash of madness - R.W. Emerson

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 1:21 am

I am laugthing way to much to be the remotest bit of help to answering any of these questions right now. thanks "Abu"

"Abu? What's abu?"

"I don't know, what's abu with you?"

I will try and answer a couple of these...later

Sasha

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 3:17 am

I'ts not great advice, but if you can find a copy of my arm pattern, it's a good learning piece. It takes no complecated dishing, but does require that you learn to cut well, and by the time you finish, you'll definatly know how to pein a rivit.

Pekka · Post by **Pekka** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 5:20 am

Thanks Abu!

I had the best laughs for a long, long time

Pekka

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:00 am

Ok I really don't understand this. Here I am trying to help you out by answering your questions and giving you tips on what will get you better answers around here and not piss people off. Basically I'm trying to help here.

The word maille actually means armour with no distinction as to the type and it's french.

I didn't say you should know all about armour. I said you should know about metals ie. what mild steel is what galvanization is what iron is what stainless steel is and the properties of these with the etc. etc. etc. going on and on for the myriad different types of metals.

Look around here and read my posts. You'll see that I'm here both to help and to learn and not to bash other people.

If you still don't understand that I'm trying to be helpfull here then that's fine I'll stop trying to help you.

BTW Dwarlock's splinted arms are a great first plate project. They were my first plate project and I managed to make em allright.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 9:50 am

First off, to the last post, Matt, when was I bashing anyone?

Secondly, your help is great. I was never rude to you.

Gundo, the "Grandmaster" in my name is a rank of monk. In a RPG I played a year ago or so, the highest title a monk fighter could achieve is "grandmaster". This has nothing to do with my JOKE about my skill at maille.

And it says in most armor books, lots of essays across the internet, and even the "American Heritage dic-tion-ar-y of the English Language - 3rd edition" says "from Latin - macula - a net or mesh" under "chain mail"

I hope this has cleared up all of everyone's nearsightedness, which has caused you to strike against someone who is only requesting help from the great masters of armor, Gundo, Matt, etc.

-Alex-

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 9:55 am

Oh, and Abu, the monkey from Alladin, 'you' are in-fact the person with whom people should become perturbed. As a long time reader of these boards, and a new poster, I've seen some of the really general questions some people have asked here, and have tried my hardest to be as discrete as Grandmaster-ly possible. So, bugger off and keep your mouth shut if you're just going to dish out insults (exemplari gratia: "A codpiece, appropriate to your physique and station. A --> small flat metal piece <-- should suffice for now")

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:21 am

Ok confusion again. I didn't say you were bashing anyone. I said it seemed like you thought I was bashing you.

Anyway you cleared that up and everything's happy.

Anyway on the maille thing. In the Oxford dictionary: mail n. armour of metal rings or plates [french maille from Latin macula].

Which means maille is a general term meaning metal armour. Then descriptive terms can be added to the term to denote the type of armour that the word maille is referring to.

No you haven't quite been rude to me. But you have been defensive and seem to be misunderstanding most of my posts. I just wanted to make sure you understood I was trying to help. And if you still thought I wasn't trying to be helpfull then I would stop. That's all.

As far as the Grandmaster thing goes it doesn't bother me. People call themselves Lord or sir et. around here. Those might be SCA titles or whatever but this isn't an SCA board and basically people call themselvs whatever they want to. Imagine how someone who's been knighted in the real world (not SCA etc.) would feel seeing all these people calling themselves knights etc. if they wanted to be as snooty as some of the SCA people are. It's a handle not meant to be a real name or reflect real life etc.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:44 am

I'm trying to find an SCA group that has a squad of monk-like fighters. Ones that fight with their hands and wear sashes and leather armor, and shun the weapons. I think that would work wonders for roleplaying at the SCA.

Just a nondiscrete question (sorry), but in general, is the entire leather armor process simpler than the process of plate mail construction. This is not any certain piece, just the overall skill and work needed to create the type of armor.

-Alex-

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:06 am

Alex, you will find no such SCA group. Leather armor is common enough, but no fighting with hands. Grappling, punching [also karate chopping] and kicking are specifically prohibited by SCA combat rules, and even if they weren't, you'd just hurt yourself karate chopping people in plate.

As to leather armor: the tools are lot cheaper, the materials are a lot more expensive, and the skills take less physical effort. It's probably easier to learn or even teach yourself, but I could be wrong.

You still seem uninformed for a long-time reader. I define long-time in this context in terms of years, though.

------------------
Gundobad,
Wise Ogre Armory
Wise Ogre Pic of the Day
Wise Ogre Armory T-shirts & more

Sanity is very rare. Every man almost, and every woman, has a dash of madness - R.W. Emerson

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:06 am

Ok the SCA is a sorta historical recreation society. So RPG stuff generally doesn't apply.

Leather armour is easier then plate stuff. The tools for leather armour are much cheaper.

The materials are much more expensive.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Grandmaster Esplin · Post by **Grandmaster Esplin** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:13 am

By role-playing, I don't mean RPG stuff, I mean getting into the persona of a purist monk, hating weapons. Darned shame though, that we can't use fists, et cetera.

Are there Roman groups in the SCA? I'm really into that.

-Alex-

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:18 am

Ok like I said historic recreation. Ie. monks not only shun weapons but also fighting. either that or they're hospitalers who fight with the same armour and weapons as everyone elce but wear nifty clothes denoting their order and take orders from the church instead of a lord or king etc.

Yup there's people that do roman stuff in the sca.

Go to http://www.sca.org and you can find out all about the SCA and see where the closest group to you is.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Langdon · Post by **Langdon** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:39 am

Depending where you are located there may be a group of good size or not. The major USA cities with Universities are more likely to have a SCA Barony. (by the way where are you located?)

As far as a roman persona, its a bit early but I do know people with roman personas. An early Byzantine person would be very influenced by the roman culture etc. but would be in the 600AD time frame of the SCA. And yes there are some people who are very accurate and maintain their character. It does take research and work though.

As far as an entire group being one culture or time, you will not find it in the SCA. If you want information about the sca, look at their web page. www.sca.org There is a list of events and groups and of peoples internet contacts.

Mad Matt, thanks for the gratious explination.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:42 am

Urm,
Matt --
Look you got the guy saying "plate maile"!!!
[img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/mad.gif[/img]

Esplin/Alex was right the first time --
Maile means armour of rings.
It only meant something different in the early years of armour history and in D&D.

Esplin/Alex -
The same place I pointed you to for making lamellar, you'll find a very basic "how to" on doing leather.
But as others have mentioned -- generally, in real life Monks either just didn't fight or they had no compunction at all about using armour, swords, etc.
...an exception may be some monastic groups in India and such places -- where they used horn-spear/swords in order to avoid the use of bladed weapons (look up "Madu").
...and at least one American Shaman whose taboo was iron -- as long as he didn't touch iron he remained impervious to bullets and generally invincible in combat (his downfall was when a friend's wife, not knowing his taboo, cooked in iron pots with steel utensils)

On that railroad track --
Maybe you can find another flat chunck-o-steel till you learn to cut with a torch.
There really is nothing magical about railroad tracks.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Severian · Post by **Severian** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:59 am

In reply to the thing about monks not wanting to fight and shunning the use of weapons--- correct me if I'm wrong (as eastern history is not my strong point) but didn't the Shao Lin monks basically start Kung Fu? Isn't that a broad description for mastering figthing with many weapons (from hands and feet to swords and spears)?

Granted, Grandmaster, you are looking at it through RPG and modern eyes, but monks in the earliest sense were indeed fighters with weapons...and I suppose you could look to the early Irish monks whom I believe were known for taking to battle (again correct me if I'm wrong, not too good with western history either

)

-severian

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:16 pm

Never Fear Harold is here....

Esplin I'm gonna have to dub you my twin. I mean you look like me in my early days. Dont worry archive hazing is common and not realized until its too late (for all you people who just got confused with that statement please leave

)

Ahem Matt lets see, three phrases for ya:

The Knight Templar

The Hospitallers

The Teutonic Knights

They all are referred to in almost every book as Warrior Monks So i think that depending on the monk would determine if he would shun weapons or not

------------------
Just remember those Bohemian Knights that sacrificed their lives for their king at the battle of Crecy.

Harold der BÃ¤r

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 06-29-2001).]