My newest aquisitions

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Jul 06, 2001 9:55 pm

Hi All,

I picked up some neat stuff recently, and I thought I'd share.

Here is an archers sallet that I picked up from Mac when I went to get measured for my Burgundian kettlehat and sallet -

[img]http://www.wolfeargent.com/armourday/macsallet_3.%20jpg[/img]

The sallet is raised, made of springsteel & tempered, and it is russeted (a finish that is not seen often enough). The sallet can be seen also in Brian Prices book on armouring, pg 55 - atop a maximilian parade suit

This is my new bannerole post made by Jeff Hedgecock, just prior to finishing. The shaft is made of springsteel, and it fits into a keyhole slot in the keel of my armet. The finial was cleaned up and gilded.
[img]http://www.wolfeargent.com/armourday/bannerrole1.jpg[/img]

Here are two pictures of it in place on my armet, with a test pennoncel I sewed together this week (the final pennoncel will be much more elaborate, with gilded images & etc on it.

------------------
Bob R.

[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 07-06-2001).]

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Fri Jul 06, 2001 10:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by chef de chambre:

[img]http://www.wolfeargent.com/armourday/bannerrole1.jpg[/img]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice!

[This message has been edited by Galileo (edited 07-06-2001).]

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Jul 06, 2001 10:48 pm

Thanks Galileo!

For some reason, the board kept reading my seperate images as one (I ought to have put text between them). This ubb board in all versions takes a fit if you try to edit more than - say three times. Now I can't edit my original post.

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Bob R.

PS - here is the missing image of the armet

[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 07-06-2001).]

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 1:17 am

Chef,
That is very nice! The banner (?) is very nice too. Do you have a picture of the complete harness?

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All the best,
Rhys
"Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul"
Sifu Jun Fan Lee

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 6:08 am

Hi Gethin,

Yes, I do. I've posted it several times, but I'll try to dig up and post again. It's appearance is going to radicaly change, as the entire torso armour, arms, and pauldrons is being replaced by more authentic ones.

In the meantime, here is a link to pics of me riding my horse in cuirasse and armet. This was a training excersise for the horse, and he is too young to bear the full weight of harness as his back is still growing.

http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000037

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Bob R.

Gordon the Grey · Post by **Gordon the Grey** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 7:54 am

Strange? the archers sallet reminds me of a WW2 red army helmet or maybe a french helmet from the begining of the war. Guess a good design lasts

Very nice helm. And now My dumb question of the day,what funtion does the rondal on the back of your Armet play? I've seen them before on armets and close helms but have no idea what their for. Also as a old fart just learning which end of a horse is which. What type of riding style is better to learn ( closer to perod style ) western or english in your opinion? Thaks in advance

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 6:11 pm

Hi Gordon,

There are striking similarities between the simplest sallets, and many of the first modern helmets. I'd wager Mac's is a better piece consruction-wise, being of a thicker guage.

Regarding the rondel, the honest scholarly answer is "we aren't sure", but the best current theory is the post that the rondel is fixed to is a support for the leather strap of the optional additional wrapper. The rondel would keep the strap from sliding off, and would also provide protection to the strap being cut. Additionaly, it protects the vunerable backs of the cheek plates (jugulars) where they meet the neck strap. By the time close helets come on the scene, they are primarily decorative, as there are no cheekplates swinging out. I believfe the fashion dissapears after the 1520's.

In regards to riding, Western is the closest of the two styles mentioned. I say this because Western saddles developed from Mexican saddles, which developed from 16th century Spanish field saddles. The customary form of riding is with a deep seat and straight legs - "la brida", the Spanish called the style. al Jinget (sp) is riding with the knees bent and not so deep a seat, and is closer to modern riding styles. English saddles are an 18th century development (late 18th century I belive), and really have little in common with Medieval examples other than they go on the back of a horse. The most similar modern style saddle is the French Camargue, with the Portugesa and Argentine coming in second and third.

I hope this helps.

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Bob R.

[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 07-07-2001).]

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 6:40 pm

Chef, no problem - I just noticed a few spaces in filenames that shouldn't have been there...

G--

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:35 pm

Chef,
the finish on that helmet looks wonderful. I would like to ask you a few questions about the russeting.

I just fashioned a three-piece globose and one-piece backplate, and because I have few tools for planishing and polishing, I opted for a russetted finish. This is also a nice look for armours of Middle Earth(not dragonwing fantasy, by any means).

So, I began by brushing and spraying salt water onto the outside surface. It rusted readily, but not thoroughly. In between steps, I am knocking the loose rust free with steel wool. I now have the pieces in a hefty sack with salt water soaked sponges and rags at the bottom. It is working much better.

Do I need to rust the pieces until no more "steel" looking metal is showing?

When the russetting is complete, do I steel wool the loose stuff, and then seal the surface with wax?

I apologize for rehashing this subject, but I have been unable to find the old browning and russetting threads.
Thanks,
IdÃ«val

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 6:07 pm

Hi Ideval,

I don't know the answer to the process as Mac was the person who made the sallet. I am calling him the begining of this week, and when I do I'll ask him for you.

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Bob R.

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 7:29 pm

Thanks, Chef,
I would really appreciate the advise. The finish on the helm appears so smooth that I am convinced there must be steps I have not considered. Hopefully, I am not too far along and have not made any irreversible errors.

IdÃ«val

Clay · Post by **Clay** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 10:51 am

Very nice! That's the best russeted finish I've ever seen. Of course, I guess that's why Robert MacPherson is one of the top armourers of the world...

white mountain armoury · Mon Jul 09, 2001 12:14 pm

as far as russeting/browning goes i have a friend that uses sawdust and horse urin,
when i need to rust something i first get an even level of finnish on it, degrease it and spray a mixture of amonium chloride and coppersulfate on it, this creates a nice patina on wha ever metal you use, brown on iron, green on brass and bronze, etc
by the way ive had the pleasure of handling Chefs armet, it is outstanding.

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 1:26 pm

Hey chef, was that salet made for you custom, or was this one that Mac had in stock for a while? If it's the hat I think it is, the picture doesn't do it justice - it's even more gourgeous in person. The

impressive thing is that shortly after he made it, Mac started looking for better bluing/russeting methods, feeling that wasn't good enough. His work, to say the least, is amazing.

------------------

Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:19 pm

Hi Jglack,

Nope - it is a sallet that Mac made for himself (for when he intended to start riding lessons - he figured a russeted helmet would be less traumatic to a horse than a shiney steel one, horses largely being brown and all).

It probably is the sallet you are thinking of.

It barely fits me, but I bought it for my 'armour house' (I'm determined to have high quality harness to outfit 3 soldiers, as bowmen or billmen, or the like) to be able to loan at events to new recruits to Wolfe Argent, and to have in my collectiuon. When I move into a new house, our den or study will be totally fitted out in a 15th century theme, and one whole wall will be devoted to the storage of 15th century munition harness & weaponry as it would have been stored in an armoury.

As an aside, If this particular sallet fits you Adam, you can wear it till your own is done.

Mac's work is truely amazing - wait till you see the hat he is making for me currently!

------------------
Bob R.

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Mac's work is truely amazing - wait till you see the hat he is making for me currently!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I fight in a sugarloaf he made for me, and it's fantastic.

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:50 pm

Hi Ideval,

Mac used a ferric chloride solution. The trick is to get an even coat the first time you rust it, and to do so you have to be super finickey de-greasing the piece (including not handleing it with your bare fingers), A way to try to insure a good first coat is to use a light solution, and apply it with a Scotch Brite pad, as by scratching the surface you are going to expose clean metal eventually.

Once you let it set for a couple of hours (however long it takes to get the process going), then you take steel wool to it, until all that is left is a stain. Then you repeat the process, and as many times neccessary to get the finish you want.

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Bob R.

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:18 pm

Aha! Thank you for asking. So the shiny brown finish on your(Bob's) riding sallet is actually a stain on the metal, not a layer of rust as I had thought.
Interesting.
Or is it very fine rust?

IdÃ«val

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:50 pm

Hi Guys,

Chef asked me to post this for him when I got a chance. You all wanted to know what his complete harness, at least in it's current incarnation, looked like. Well here it is.

FYI-The maille skirt is a lot shorter now that it is in the pic.

Cheers,
Jenn

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 7:13 pm

Hi Ideval,

Actually, the process is repeated until the surface is that colour evenly. It will be a fine layer of rust, that ought go no deaper. The sallet is shiney as Mac has preserved it by buting curators wax on it, which is how I maintain it.

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Bob R.

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:58 pm

Thanks Chef!
I understand exactly now. My finished pieces don't look nearly as nice, nor the russet as even, but I have hope.
Mac used curator's wax, but can I use a similar hard wax? Or is curator's wax so readily available that I should really just get some?

Thanks again
IdÃ«val

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Samuel:


I dont intend to come off as a dick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too late, nice try though.

Chef posted pics of a buckler he made a few months ago, can't recall anything else.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:14 pm

Hi Samuel,

I think this is the last time I shall ever address you, or answer any questions you may choose to post (not that you would listen if I had any good advice to give regardless).

Yes, I have made items - many things not including armour. Yes, I have made armour - my first project was a 15th century buckler, which was made out of high carbon steel, tempered, and left black from the forge. My second project is in progress, a historically accurate reproduction of a 15th century brigandine, made again out of high carbon steel, the plates to be tinned, the foundation fabric hemp canvas, the plates of the correct number with the correct overlap. The cover is real silk velvet. It is well underway, the only thing holding progress up at this point is getting a nail manufacturer to make proper brigandine nails. I have gone to the trouble of seriously researching the project, including getting hands on time with brigandine fragments in the reserve collection of the Higgins. I will gladly post pictures of it when finished, for the edification of all.

I choose to make what I can make well. If it is beyond my current ability to make an accurate reproduction I do not do it, rather I go to a skilled professional. I make my own furniture out of quarter sawn oak, with wrought iron nails & fixtures where appropriate, and go to the trouble of hand chiseling when mortise and tennon work present themselves.

What I spend my money on is my business, not yours. If I choose to pursue an accurate portrayal of a 15th century man at arms, that is my business, not yours.

Not that it is your business, but I am middle class, I work for a living and have a relatively modest income (low 5's). I live in a modest condominium. My father was a teacher - I assuredly have no trust fund. If I lived in a trailer park, I would spend my energies on getting out of it - not on hobbies. It has taken me nearly four years to achieve my current full harness. I only have the one.

Perhaps you are jealous that I have the self discipline to be frugal and live modestly, and in doing so have the ability to realize some personal dreams or ambitions. Perhaps you are jealous that I have a harness that is of a higher quality than can be produced by your average panel beater turned armourer. Perhaps you are jealous of the skill of the armourers who have made my harness. Perhaps you are jealous that I have a realistic view of my own skills, and am a decent judge of what I can make well, and what I can't. Does it irk you that I strive to do things correctly rather than half-assed?

I will leave it to the members of the board to judge for themselves who has more useful information to share with them. It will be evident to any who choose to read our various postings as to who is a gentleman, and who is not.

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Bob R.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:18 pm

Hi Ideval,

Sorry, I forgot to address your question. Microcrystaline wax (sp) can be gotten at Home Depot for around $7-8 a tin. Museum Replicas sells the brand name 'Renaissance Wax' for around $21.

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Bob R.

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:11 pm

Wow.... a slam against buying armour.... seems there are a few people making armour here that care to profit from thier skills, something rather difficult if no one is there to buy it.

I'm not sure what brought this on Samuel... but you failed pretty badly on that "not being a dick" thing.....

J

Shayyadin · Post by **Shayyadin** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:42 pm

Well, Mr. Samuel, it's pretty hard to make me angry, especially on a discussion group. It's pretty hard to make me dislike someone. Because both of those things require undeserved energy.

And yet, being a WORLD-class dick, you have managed to repulse me completely, becoming in my mind a target of righteous indignation and unworthy of the smallest amount of respect.

I hope you die.

Have a good day,
Shayyadin

Shayyadin · Post by **Shayyadin** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:47 pm

Excuse me, I forgot to mention -

Chef - I love the russet finish. It looks very, I guess, warm is the word. Which is a remarkable thing to achieve with a metal. I like that.

I think that a russet harness with bronze accents would look truly incredible. And I salivate at the thought of a damascus russet sword with a dark wood handle and a bronze crossguard and pommel. Wow. Wow.

Shayyadin

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:53 pm

Ouch, Sam...

You and Bob are two of the people I respect most on this board. I certainly hate to see the two of you in conflict.

Coincidentally, Bob, I am involved in the exact same sort of project, namely, the re-construction of a fifteenth-century brigandine. I will post pics(or have Dwarlock do it for me; I'm not the shiniest rock in the pile...) as the project nears completion.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:29 pm

I realized that there might be a misconception about my harness.

My harness is a composite harness that is the work of Rob Valentine, Peter Fuller, and the Armet is from Jeff Hedgecock. Rob made the torso harness and arm harness, which I am very fond of, but there has been fit problems from the begining (my upper chest - there is plenty of room to grow in the plackart. Rob didn't take into account the thickness of my arming doublet - I didn't have it at the time, and it was a close squeak into it without it). I also have a problem with the functionality of the pauldrons, but it is a very nice piece of work.

The only piece of Mac's work I have is the archers sallet, although I have comissioned a kettlehat & bevor from him. People familiar with Macs work should see that my harness, while good, is not of his caliber - the only piece approaching his quality is my armet.

Even with the raised armet, that harness cost me nowhere near 10 grand. I couldn't afford a full harness from Mac either, I can barely afford my new hat. My torso harness is being replaced by Jeff Hedgecock, as I need something more functional for the work I intend to do in harness. I comissioned it from him as he can make a good copy of a Medieval harness, and I need it to be accurate for my work at the Higgins.

For those interested, I have a list of armouring projects I will do over the course of the next few years. Other than my own brigandine, all will be munition (although historically accurate) pieces.

1 cevellier with rondels, varnished black
1 munition grade brigandine
1 set of bar & chain arm defences
1 fussknechtbrust
1 padded jack

All intended as loaner gear, and to fit out my little armoury. I will post pictures as projects progress. We as a group will also be making pavises (copies of two in the Berne Historical Museum taken from the Burgundians). We won't be taking shortcuts regarding material and construction, although we will use modern tools to speed the process.

Until the brig nails are comissioned, I'll be occupying my time makeing a series of accurate pennons and flags, copied from extant examples in "Die Burgunderbeute". The test pennon posted above is the first in the series, the next will be an accurate copy of one.

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Bob R.

James Schardt · Post by **James Schardt** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:47 pm

How are you forming the Pavices? I know you do not fight SCA, but would they stand up to SCA combat the way you make them?

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It's all fun and games until somebody burns a village.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:05 pm

Hi James,

The pavises we are copying aren't intended to be carried as a shield to parry with. The originals we are copying are set up to be propped up for crossbowmen or handgunners to reload from behind.

They are made of lindenwood, and unsusually for 15th century pavises, are covered with leather (most surviving 15th century pavises of this sort are covered with a haevy fabric glued and tacked in place, then gessoed to give a 'smooth' surface, and then painted). One still has it's pointed spike to drive into the ground, and I believe there is an ironwork carrying handle that also locks a stick in place when you use one to prop it up.

I'd say it would withstand the rigours, as it is fairly thick wood, and heavier than a shield proper. It would be hell on your wrist and arms to try to use one as a shield.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 11:06 pm

said the Chef : Perhaps you are jealous that I have a harness that is of a higher quality than can be produced by your average panel beater turned armourer.

hey! I resent that remark! I am an absolutely awful panel beater! All the panel work I ever tried made it look like that bit of a car was heavily pregnant and about to give birth to a sallet.

After a while I just started making sallets and sending the car to the panel shop.

By the way, nice harness.

Sasha

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:47 pm

Hi Samuel.

I hope your post was intended to be humorous rather than the insulting attack that it appears to be. I saw nothing in Chef's post to invite this sort of nasty, unconstructive commentary. As you may have noticed, few people think you were just kidding around. I respectfully suggest that you reconsider your comments, obviously Chef did not think you were kidding either. I think of both of you as valuable, honorable contributors to this forum. I would hate to find out that you really meant what you posted.

[This message has been edited by Richard Blackmoore (edited 07-11-2001).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 5:52 pm

I had to delete the first post I wrote in response to this attack. I didn't want to get in trouble with the administrators. I'd say we've seen a really convincing argument for boys and men to have seperate shower facilities.
I make less than Chef, but have at least twice as much stuff. I don't live in a trailer, though I haven't owned a car (and never would own a pinto) in twenty years. A company van with ladder racks is good enough for me. We all have our priorities. Some people like to sit on their fat butts in front of an expensive satelite dish/entertainment center, some like to drive expensive cars and some like to vacation in resorts. We happen to like to ride horses while wearing authentic armour. If you have a problem with that, then bite me!!!
By the way, I think my signature line is appropriate...

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:13 pm

It is possible that Bob R. (Chef) manages money better than the majority of us. Really. In graduate school I made $13,000/yr. But, I owned a bicycle, one pot, a bowl, one set of flatware, a large drinking cup, bed (w/sheets) and clock radio. That's it. No car, no stereo, no beer, no TV and no credit cards. For fun I bicycled in the mountains behind the University of Utah (free). For SCA events I went as a monk (appropriate). One pair of flip-flops, a huge burlap robe with hood, a rope belt, and my clothes went into a backpack that made me a hunchback. All told my outfit cost $20.

Rent was $200 per month. I was a vegetarian so food was $150 per month. I had no life, but I did manage to save away nearly $2,500 per year! Now, I'm married and earning more...but two kids and a wife are expensive. Yes, if I was still single and living like a cloistered monk, yes I could afford what Chef has on an income of $25,000 per year (given nearly $5,000 per year in unused income).

It can be done. With kids and a wife not working -- it's harder.

You have some nice stuff Chef. And, as you've said -- the knight of the middle ages NEVER made his own stuff. He bought it, like you have.

I make my own stuff because:
1. It's fun -- it's manly arts and crafts.
2. Anatomically I'm a freak -- I need to make my own stuff so it fits.
3. It's cheap. For $15 I can get the steel and rivetts to make a Great Helm. Few hobbies are so cheap, or fun.

[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited 07-11-2001).]