Advice on pointing for gothic arm please

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Fri Jul 06, 2001 12:06 am

I am currently working on a suit of high gothic plate, the elbow cops are of the style which wrap around and over the inside of the elbow. These floating cops and the rerebraces and vambraces which go with them are all but finished. I am trying to determine the best way to point them to my gambeson, at present i am planning on having a lacing point on the outside (side) of the elbow, halfway between the front and the side at the top of the rerebrace and attatching the vambrace by a long point (although im not sure it can still be called that) where the laces run from the bottom of the rerebrace at the front to the top of the vambrace, passing through the elbow cop (so on top of your arm when worn leaving the laces exposed in the middle.

If you have a copy of arms and armour of the medieval knight, this is my interpretation of how sigismund of tyrols suit would have been pointed/laced up. Does this work? do i need any leather inside of the cop attatching the backs of the vambraces and rerbraces to the cops? do you agree that those holes at the top of the rerebraces with no laces through them would have been pointed to hold up the arm in addittion to the pauldron strap when worn in combat?

please let us know

this is my first mild steel suit and my first attempt at correct pointing.

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 1:33 am

No really can anyone help/offer any info or advice?

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 2:10 am

I can't help - but I do know that if you want a question like this answered, asking on a weekend sucks, as many of the really knowledgeable people either are off fighting somewhere (especially after a midweek holiday), or can only access from work.

Anyhow, relax... Monday is coming - and I'm sure someone will have a nice answer for ya.

G--

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Gabriel Tullis

"I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God."
Luke 1:19 (KJV)

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 4:29 am

Hmmm yes, i didn't think of that, and now that i read it again it sounds more perturbed than i intended, thanks

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:29 am

Konrad -

I believe that the upper and lower cannons of the vambrace point to the couter itself (in the mid 15th century). On the effigies where you see two pairs of points, top and bottom then they further point to the doublet, but there is still a strap at the bend of the elbow to help secure everything. Later similar style couters sometimes attatch to the vambraces on leathers, according to Tom Richardson (Royal Armouries) and Walter Karcheski (Higgins Museum) in their newest book "The Medieval Armour of Rhodes", but the later pieces are literally at the end of the 15th century - 1490 and beyond.

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Bob R.

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:07 am

So you are saying that the points do not attatch to the arming coat at the couter but rather attatch to the upper and lower cannons?

I plan on having a strap across the centre of the elbow for further stability but i would have thought the points on the couter would have had to be attatched to the arming coat or gambeson here to hold it in place.

Any ideas on how the vambraces upper and lower cannons are attatched? particularly the lower vambrace as all i can see is the long line running from the upper cannon to the lower cannon and this doesn't strike me as being very stable, it seems it would spin on the arm.

Thanks for the input

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:12 am

Chef:

Ahhhh o.k i just read your message again, my mistake so you meant through both the couter and the vambrace to the gambesson. hmmm i considered this but it seems that the upper and lower cannons would have to extend a long way inside of the couter for this to be possible and from the ones i am making it seems that this leaves a very limited capacity to close your arm.

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:13 am

The Lost Scott · Post by **The Lost Scott** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:42 am

I have floting elbows the point to my vambrace and rearbrace and have a "Y" shaped strap that goes around the elbow and the rearbrace points to the gambeson/arming coat. It works well remind me and I will send you a pic or 2 tonight.

LS

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:02 pm

Thanks that would be great, anyone else got anything they could add? are the vambraces always laced to the cop and if so how did you get the elbows to close sufficiently (with wrap around piece through the inside of the elbow getting in the way).

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:58 pm

Well i have seen a few suits with the point on the front side of the Couter. The vambrace snaps on and the upper cannon is pointed on.

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"No matter how hard the wind howels, a mountian cannot bow to it."

Harold der BÃ¤r

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:17 am

What do you mean by snaps on? as in has a hinge and closes? if so how do you stop it sliding down onto your wrist?

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 4:07 am

I spent a couple hours earlier tonight looking over pictures of this style elbow and arm harness in AAotMK. I came to the conclusion that there was no one certain way that it was always done.. there seemed to be at least two ways I saw in the photographs and pics of effigies. the biggest differences I saw was that some had one arming point on the couter and some had two.

I think that if they were pointed on how Chef mentioned (if I read it right, it's almost 5am and I'm a little sleepy.. might be partly confusing it with what Konrad thinks Chef said), there would only be a problem if they were tied on really tight... point them on with the arm relaxed and the plates sitting where they are made to sit and there should be no problem with bending the arm..

Konrad, did you do the articulations near the inside of the elbow on the upper and lower cannons? I was noticing that in the pictures I was looking at earlier and thinking it would be fun to do..

I'm doing a later pair of arms that use a similar (well, not really.. big bulbous elbow instead of pointy) couter. Getting close to being done with them.. only have half a couter left to make, then the lower arm splints, and strap the whole thing.
I'll have to track down a copy of the book chef mentioned... sounds very useful.

Konrad Athalwolfe · Post by **Konrad Athalwolfe** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 3:20 am

My upper cannons are nearly completed and i have debated doing those laminations on the inside of the arm for a long time, i have run through several possible techniques for how they might be made and actually work but at this point nothing i have come up with seems to help me much, the harness just doesn't seem to be flexible enough for sca combat with these lames but if anyone knows how they were done (not just guessing like i am) or have made it work and still look right i would be most interested in hearing about it.

Also does anyone think that mabey there was a single strap attatching the bottom middle points of the vambrace cannons and the couters in addittion to across the elbow strapping and pointing at the side? A few of my local armourers have suggested this, sorry if this is what was meant by any previous posts i may have misread

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is my arm supposed to bend like this?