The Armour Archive

Ok, so I'm sitting here lacing up my new suit of lamellar that was based on the outstanding essay that T Bob put on the archive and thought I would take a moment to say thanks. That essay cleared up so many of the mistakes I had made with my first suit and as a result this new suit is gonna be totally kick ass. One of my dog-brothers has a cousin that plasma cut the scales for us and boy lemme just say screw roper whitney!!! This stuff rocks!!

Animal
"Hold my sword while I kiss your girlfriend"

Ok, so I finished up the vest part of the coat of lamellar I'm making. Put the leather shoulder straps on, and the buckles up the front. I put it on and went and looked in the mirror and OH MY FREAKIN GOD THIS IS COOL! Finally the look I was after! And thanks again T Bob, the info you put out enabled me to take it to the next level of right. As soon as I get the 9 hole scales I'll be able to finish up the shoulders and skirts. Then pics will follow if someone would be kind enough to post them for me.
I'm so jazzed! Can you tell??

Sounds great, can't wait to see some pics.

Animal:



Wow--thanks for the shining review of the essay! I'm pleased that the information in it was helpful to you, and (more importantly) that it's stood the test of time.

But the real people to thank are the late H. Russell Robinson (the author of Oriental Armour), Dr. Gorelik (formerly of the Hermitage Museum) and the author of the Wisby books. My essay is built on their research.

When I originally wrote it (around fifteen years ago), I'd been pretty obsessed with lamellar, and the many and varied lacing styles--particularly those of extant pieces. This is what led me to the Etsin-Gol and the Tibetan Willowleaf lamellae. I read just about everything I could find about making lamellae, but there are so many more styles and patterns out there--especially the later period Tibetan and Mughal suits.

Someday, I want to make a replica of one museum find I saw that has full wrap-around elbow length sleeves, with lamellae only as wide as one inch. It'll take about 1500 or so lamellae, but it'll be the best balance of flexibility and rigidity--and why (IMnsHO) that lamellar is the most practical form of armour ever conceived--and ideally suited for people with Central Asian impressions (especially those that like to hit each other with sticks!) .

If you'd be so kind, I'd appreciate it if you'd send some of your photos to me as well. My e-mail address is in Profiles.

While we are on the subject I would like to thank you as well. The essay was invaluable when I made my lamellar.

Vladimir wrote:While we are on the subject I would like to thank you as well. The essay was invaluable when I made my lamellar.

Hi, Vladimir!

As a side note, Bogei Timur (who, as I recall, hasn't posted here in a while) used information from the article to make a suit of her own, using different lacing patterns. Her suit is of 18 and 20 gauge stainless, and is remarkably flexible. It uses a more historically correct hole-lacing diameter as well.

The important thing I'd observed from the research cited in my essay is that horizontal lacing should be tight, but vertical lacing should be loose. Otherwise, you lose the prime advantages lamellar affords--flexibility, mobility and layered protection from blunt-force trauma. This stuff must be equally effective against archery, slashes and the heavy blows of swords, maces and hammers the Eastern and Central Asian warriors faced.

The other value of lamellar is that it didn't require skilled labor to build a harness--while maille did. All that was needed in period to build a metal klibanion was a chisel or shear, a punch and someone to make thongs or silk/linen lace.

As an armour, it's truly remarkable stuff.

I am using the same design to make my lamellar myself. It is the best one I have seen yet. I am presently making my plates and it is slow work but I will have enough plates very soon. I am presently playing with a couple of plates trying to figure out how the holes are measered and placed. The seven hole pattern as well as the nine hole pattern will be the ones I will be using, I have not decided on the skirt or not. Any info on how everyone else is measuring them would be great.

ronnin wrote:I am using the same design to make my lamellar myself. It is the best one I have seen yet. I am presently making my plates and it is slow work but I will have enough plates very soon. I am presently playing with a couple of plates trying to figure out how the holes are measered and placed. The seven hole pattern as well as the nine hole pattern will be the ones I will be using, I have not decided on the skirt or not. Any info on how everyone else is measuring them would be great.

Firstly: Do you have access to a Beverly Shear (preferably a B-2 or B-2)? That would go a long way towards cutting them, if you're doing the shearing yourself. Cut your metal into 3 1/2" (or 4 1/2") wide bands. Then, measure every 1 1/2", and shear them for your individual plates. If you're really feeling froggy, find an 1 1/2" disk to trace one end of each lamellae, then trim around to get the "tombstone" effect on your lamellae. When done, de-burr all edges and slightly round the remaining corners.

Secondly: If you cannot shear them yourself, see if the place you purchase your metal from will do the shearing for you. This will save you a lot of time in constructing your own lamellae.

Thirdly: To make the holes, you'll want to build a practice "template" out of cardboard or you can use very thin plastic--pickle-bucket plastic works well for this. Use your Roper-Whitney punch to punch the holes exactly where you want them. Once this is set, you may use this to trace the holes on the lamellae (I use Sharpie markers with the Ultra-Fine point).

Lastly, punch the holes. Did you know that you can "sight" through the top of you Roper-Whitney punch to get proper alignment on your holes? That's how I do it. One thing that may aid you even more is to purchase the bench clamp attachment and get a cheap, wooden table to clamp the punch to--that's how Bogei Timur did her lamellae, and I wish I'd thought of that one when I built my first metal suit!

Good luck,

Thanks for the advice. I have been using a sheer to cut my plates and I am using a belt grinder to round them off. I have a whitney punch and I didn't realize you could sight at the top, that works great. My real problem is where on the plate to place the holes so that they will be symetrical when they are punched in. I have made several templates, but I seem to make the holes to close to each other or to far apart. Is there a base of measurement they need to be say about a 1/4 inch from the edge and 1/2 inch apart for the ones that are closer to the middle? This is my obstacle I am trying to figure out. I made three to play with and figure out exactly where to place the holes at. Any advice would be great.

ronnin wrote:Thanks for the advice. I have been using a sheer to cut my plates and I am using a belt grinder to round them off. I have a whitney punch and I didn't realize you could sight at the top, that works great. My real problem is where on the plate to place the holes so that they will be symetrical when they are punched in. I have made several templates, but I seem to make the holes to close to each other or to far apart. Is there a base of measurement they need to be say about a 1/4 inch from the edge and 1/2 inch apart for the ones that are closer to the middle? This is my obstacle I am trying to figure out. I made three to play with and figure out exactly where to place the holes at. Any advice would be great.

Ronnin:

Do you have a copy of my essay handy? If so, it should print the
plates the size that they are--and have the proper hole alignment.

The holes in my lamellae are about a eighth-inch from the edge of the plates on the sides of the lamellae, about a quarter-inch from the bottom and top edges. Hole placement is (mostly) trial and error, and depends much on the size of the holes you punch. But then, I used the largest punch in the set (the 9/32" punch). Your mileage will vary, depending on which hole size you choose--and this will also effect the size your lacing cord should be.

My scales were made directly from the template in the essay. They went together flawlessly. This armor is so beautiful it almost has nipples. Seriously.

So...Animal:

You gonna send me some pictures, so I can post them for you???

Bob: As soon as I can get the camera and this computer to talk to one another I will certainly. I have pics shot of the vest part and when I get the other 9 hole scales I'll finish the suit and shoot that as well. I'm very impressed with this. The stuff from WMA and all that birka lamellar is awesome, make no mistake. But it just wasnt aesthetically what I was going for. I love the look of the lamellar over the mail but again. Not me. So when I found that essay it laid out pretty much what I was going for. The leather stuff I made after looking at Bedlams was fine, fought in it for a couple of years and was happy, but it was laced wrong, I didnt know the real principle behind the lamellar. This suit moves a ton better, it looks better and I think I'll be a lot happier in this protection wise. I'm getting older and that's becoming important to me.

Animal:

I'm glad it's working for you. An excellent addition to it would be this helm, don't you think?

Animal wrote:One of my dog-brothers has a cousin that plasma cut the scales for us and boy lemme just say screw roper whitney!!! This stuff rocks!!

Animal:

Would this individual consider a run of a thousand more lamellae?

Addendum:

Your persona impression is Turco-Mongol...right? Had you considered the addition of bazubands to your gear? It would certainly help with the look of a Turco-Mongol yigit look.

I wore lamellar, a helm similar to the one I cited above (with turban) with a face-covering maille drape, loose, baggy trousers (made of trigger or heavy canvas, to hide less "documentable" leg-harness) tucked into a pair of Russian combat boots. I looked the proper Mamluk, armoured like that. A lamellar neck-drape hanging from the back of the helm would make the look, you know...

That is a cool helm no doubt. The one I'm picturing is more along the lines of the spangenhelm type with the lamellar fall. Kind of ornate frame and maybe a nasal.
Bazubands are definitely on the list. I'm also trying to figure out some sort of hidden legs to do under my baggy Mongol pants.
Eventually, if I ever have money again I'll get this sort of thig together.
As far as the plates go, I'll ask if that would be possible and get back to you. I dunno about pricing as this isnt really anything other than a favor this guys cousin did. I will definitely inquire though and get back as soon as I find out anything.

Animal wrote:That is a cool helm no doubt. The one I'm picturing is more along the lines of the spangenhelm type with the lamellar fall. Kind of ornate frame and maybe a nasal.

Are you talking the one with brim in front and the frame around the eyes? That one rocks! You could also simulate a "lamellar" style with that type helm, too!

Animal wrote:Bazubands are definitely on the list. I'm also trying to figure out some sort of hidden legs to do under my baggy Mongol pants.
Eventually, if I ever have money again I'll get this sort of thig together

I've found that metal lamellar was enough to protect the legs, and all you really needed were some thickly padded cuisses under the pants (with rigid low-profile knee armour attached by laces--this makes the cuisses machine-washable). You could also build a leather scabbard for a rattan saber!

Animal wrote:As far as the plates go, I'll ask if that would be possible and get back to you. I dunno about pricing as this isnt really anything other than a favor this guys cousin did. I will definitely inquire though and get back as soon as I find out anything.

That's perfectly fine--my e-mail address is in Profiles.

Ya know, I've never really worn cuisses. i'm thinking that a hidden knee and a simple greave would be wonderful. It should go well under not only the pants but the boots as well. I'm already a bit numb on the legs due to the neuropothy so I dont wanna have too much armor there and start blowing off leg shots. I dont feel some of them as it is and I dont really wanna get thought of as a ryno or anything. Whenever I fight someone new I always point out the numb thing and so far the fews times people have had to point out the fact that they did just in fact hit me they have been way cool about it. I sent Dalewyn an email inquiring about a knee greave thing but he hasnt gotten back to me. I'm not adverse to plastic like that if it's hidden and his stuff looks real nice onver the internet.
Still plugging away!

Ok, I have searched, looked at the essay section and still can not find T-Bob's essay on this. It sounds really cool and would like a copy. Can someone point me out to were it is. Thanks

iaenmor wrote:Ok, I have searched, looked at the essay section and still can not find T-Bob's essay on this. It sounds really cool and would like a copy. Can someone point me out to were it is. Thanks

Ummm...did you try the Pattern Archive, under "Lamellar Construction" by Robert de Tyre?

Yup, looked right at it and did not see it. Somedays I think the eyes see and brain just will not register. Thanks

iaenmor wrote:Yup, looked right at it and did not see it. Somedays I think the eyes see and brain just will not register. Thanks

Not a problem--I hope the information is helpful to you.

Pay particular attention to the Bibliography and information on extant pieces. A lot of book-digging went into the writing of that essay, and rather than have you take my word for how lamellar should look and lace, I suggest looking up the books and photos of the pieces in question. That gave me more of an understanding of proper form for lamellar.

As Talbot says "Look at real armour--then make real armour!!

If a pic of my armor shows up...we did it right...if not...well we'll try again


[img]http://hometown.aol.com/vvanimalvv/myhomepage/dcp_0001.jpg[/img]

Animal:

So far, so good.

Now for the bad news:

You'll need a Roper-Whitney to punch a hole in the bottom row of plates now, just above the lower hole.

This is to allow you to add the skirt-plates to your lamellar, unless you intend your skirts to be a separate piece of armour. If it is to be a separate piece of armour, you will have a problem with your lower abdomen becoming occasionally exposed to thrusts. A nine-foot spear at full extention to an unprotected abdomen is---bad.

Then, you will be able to attach your skirt plates. You will also wish to attach the sleeve plates by making a special hole on the upper chest plates, and on the upper back plates.

Let me know how it turns out.

Actually I've left the torso short enough that I'll be able to run the 9 hole scales right off the bottom for the skirts and still have nice coverage. The shoulders are just gonna be attached to the leather shoulder straps going front to back. This is how my old leather suit was set up, the one thing about it I liked. I should have the last batch of scales Friday then I'll be able to post finished pictures.
I asked my friend about productiohn and he said he's looking into having a die made to stamp these out rather than plasma cut them. When he knows more he'll get back to me.

Only got one thing to say about that lamaller...... shaaaaawinnnnnng bdr bdr bdr!

I can't wait to see the rest

Well Paw I must say that looks SWEET!!!!!
You Comming to the winter event?
Will the whole suit be done by then?
Can I have it when you DIE????
Kronos

Jesus Christ you already got the skulls pre-mortem! Yah, we're coming to the winter event and if Bytor sends me the rest of the scales tomorrow it'll be finished by next week. And if you ever get a break in your schedule I need some bazubands. Just keep in mind when you ever get free time.

That looks great, can't wait to see the whole ensemble when it's put together.

-Donasian.

Animal:

What I'll also be interested in is how well the armour performs for you.

Things I've found:

• One doesn't really need rigid thigh protection when one has a fully skirted klibanion. Padded cuisses, or a heavily padded skirt on your fighting Qaba Tartarriyyal (Mongol Robe) will serve.
  
• It's important not to make the skirts too long, to avoid shots to the knee from SCAers not used to Tuchuk rules.
  
• Double-lacing the lamellae cuts down on the amount of relacing that's necessary. Mine would get completely relaced once every two years--this gave me the opportunity to see to damaged cord and lamellae.
  
• If your individual rows are laced loosely enough, you can do somersaults in your lamellar. Flexibility is one of the advantages of this kit--use it.

You'll look really good in this--now if someone decides on powder-coating lamellar, perhaps you'll see some people attempt to make some of the colorful lamellar shown in Timurid miniatures.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm?"

Heheh until I started using the leather lamellar down to the knees I never wore thigh armor at all so I'm not really all that concerned about the padding. I do love the flexibility of the lamellar. I'm a fat guy so I cant stand the rigid stuff a lot of guys like. I just cant move in it. As for powder coating the dog that's producing this stuff is looking into having it anodized because I didnt know you could powder coat aluminum. Personally I like the scuffed metal look but he's thinking red. Could be cool.

First off: Sweet armor. Even a cheaten plastic armor guy like me can appreciate that. Secondly: Sorry I haven't gotten back to you on the knee-greaves. I've been so busy lately producing the stuff I already do, I've had very little time for any R & D, even for stuff people have been asking for. I can do a greave / regular knee combo with leather articulation, but it won't have quite the look you want.

Dalewyn no worries. It's good to be busy, I figured you were swamped. Good news is I found some knees/shins for paintball of all things that protect real well and are real low profile under the Mongol pants for just what I want. And dont worry about the plastic thing. Your stuff looks great. Seriously. Better great looking plastic stuff like yours than the rusty steel/ moldy leather indeterminate period crap you see on a lot of the guys out there. IMO.

Dalewyn wrote:First off: Sweet armor. Even a cheaten plastic armor guy like me can appreciate that. Secondly: Sorry I haven't gotten back to you on the knee-greaves. I've been so busy lately producing the stuff I already do, I've had very little time for any R & D, even for stuff people have been asking for. I can do a greave / regular knee combo with leather articulation, but it won't have quite the look you want.

Dalewyn:

I'm sure you've already given this thought, but have you considered offering an Italian Export-style Corrazzina? Seems that formed HDPE covered with velveteen or suede would be a big seller. The shape, coupled with all the shiny little rivets on velvet/leather would dress it up nicely!