Screw-in Rivets

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:56 pm

I'm currently interested in making a coat-of-plates for use in SCA heavy combat.

I'm considering several different options for the 'plate' materials and was wondering if it would be practical to make the coat using screw-in rivets. This would make it possible to replate the plates at a later date if I so chose without having wasted the leather.

The problem I wonder about is, are such rivets sturdy enough?

Any advise or comments would be appreciated. Thanks

Lord Ogier · Post by **Lord Ogier** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:58 pm

If you are talking about chicago screws, don't go there unless you want to have to either

1) use locktite to keep them tight.
or
2) be constantly retightening the screws.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:06 pm

Not sure what chicago screws are, but regardless, a good point.

Could the rivets still be removed after using lock-tight?

What I was wondering about was having the rivet's threads strip or sheer under impact and jam tight so they couldn't be removed.

Lord Ogier · Post by **Lord Ogier** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:12 pm

A chicago screw is essentially a two piece unit consisting of a brass screw and a brass sleeve with threads on both. I use them for mockups but not on a final product.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:22 pm

Yep, that's what I was thinking of using. Thanks for the input.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:35 pm

you cannot change how long that chicago screw is. I use them on certain things and I have only found 2 lengths. I don't think it will work for a coat of plates.

When I use them it is usually when I want to connect metal to thick leather. The thickness of a belt or more.

You don't want to be able to take them apart after using locktite. If you can then the glue didn't do its job. I only use chicago screws in a few areas, and then only because field repairs are made very easily without any tools but my pocketknife.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:53 pm

Chicago screws come in at least 2 different materials: Brass and Alluminum.

Loctite comes in a number of different grades with 242 being the most common that I've seen. Some versions of loctite are ment to be removed, either under high torque or occasionally heat. Loctite is often used to hold automobile suspensions together for racing and then are disassembled after applying a propane torch. Perhaps a different brand of loctite will be acceptable to you.

IMHO the outer shell (canvas or leather) of a COP often fares worse than the plates. If I were to worry about dissassembling a COP it would be to replace the canvas rather than the plates. More likely I would wear the COP in whatever condition making small necessary repairs while building a second incorporating all the ideas learned from building the first.

Good luck,
Sean

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:50 pm

I use CS with Locktite in several areas, and to hold straps on my shields as well.

Grace Dudley · Post by **Grace Dudley** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:24 am

Alcyoneus wrote:I use CS with Locktite in several areas, and to hold straps on my shields as well.

Me too. Most of the leather armour I currently have in progress is being held together with Chicago Screws. They make for much quieter armouring after one's spouse has gone off to bed, are pretty cheap by the 100 count, and give a pretty finish. I'm using the sort of Locktite that will give under some effort so that I can make repairs if needed without major surgery. If you use the stuff intended never to come apart, you'll end up having to either drill out the rivets or get a pair of long handled nippers after them. They're easily as sturdy as peened copper rivets when stuck together appropriately.

Grainne

witchking13 · Post by **witchking13** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:47 am

why don't u just invest in rivets and a good cordless Dremel tool to slice the heads off on the field that would be easy and it would work then just bring extra rivets and a rivet setter/peener
hope i helped

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:26 am

Thanks for the many comments. All have been helpful and several have brought up points I hadn't thought of.

The reason for this approach is I have a nice, thick side of leather (thicker than usual I think). I'm making my first coat-of-plates and since I lack both the tools and the skill at this point to work with metal I'm planning to experiment with some heavy impact resistant plastic for the plates. Later I would be interested in improving the authenticity and use metal or sooner if the plactic turns out to not be as impact resistant as I think it is.

I'll be experimenting. Anyway, the idea was to be able to fairly painlessly exchange plastic plates for metal plates, and preserve the nice leather.

I'm also planning to make splinted leather for arm and leg protection, so the techniques I learn on one piece will be used throughout the entire harness. I have thought the brass heads would look good with black leather.

Grainne - I'm very interested in exactly what "sort of Locktite that will give under some effort" you are using. Sound like just what I would want to try.

Xanthier · Post by **Xanthier** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:00 pm

Here's what I did when I made my COP.

First of all like everyone said.. Ditch the idea of the chicago screws. A friend uses them to hold his lorica together. Everything has locktite as well and by the end of Estrella it was held together with zip-ties.

If you were planning on using chicagos you probobly won't mind going with jiffy rivits. They don't look bad and will hold up pretty well.

http://www.tandyleather.com/prodinfo.as ... 4&mitem=46

Yes they will blow but they are easy to replace. Also if you need to take them out they cut easy with a pair of dykes.

I used them for a few years on a COP I made out of 5 oz suede. They will blow before your leather tears.

Another suggestion for you is how thick of a leather are you planning? You want to have some flex in your COP. If your leather is too thick you'll loose alot of the mobility that the cop will give you.

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:06 pm

You mean Rosie O'Donnell will cut them?

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:15 pm

Muschijaeger - glad you said it, I was thinking it.

Xanthier - the jiffy rivits is a good idea. I've used them before and they are easy to work with for the newbie (like me). Also the idea of them failing before the leather rips would be very good. They would be easier to repair/replace than ripped leather.

And the idea of stiffness - mobility is something I need to look at. The leather isn't all THAT thick and stiff, but I think it is thicker than that used in the few COPs I have actually seen. I had thought that was a good thing, need to look tonight.

Xanthier · Post by **Xanthier** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:16 pm

Ok.. first of all.. not that kind of dyke.. (smartasses)

How thick of leather are you talking about?

Remember this is just a shell.. your real defense is in the plates underneath (plus gambeson if needed). Mine was made with a GAA kit (18ga mild). You also want your leather to flex to help the plates to absorb the impact.

When I was fighting in this kit I was wearing only a t-shirt underneath most of the time with no problems.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:33 pm

The point about thickness of the leather is one I am jus now starting to consider. I will have to measure it tonight. My impression is that it is thicker than that used in the couple of COPs I have seen, but not a lot thicker. My original reaction was that this is good. Now I'm wondering if it might be too thick, causing too much restricion of movement. Will check.

A GAA kit?

I do have a hand saber/jig saw for which metal cutting blades are sold. Any idea if something like that would cut an appropriate gauge of steel sheet for plates. Maybe I need to reconcider my plate material.

Xanthier · Post by **Xanthier** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:08 pm

GAA Armouries.

His basic kit goes for $40
http://www.hammeredsteel.com/gaa/armour/gaa/body.htm
Comes with the plates pre-cut and drilled.

Check out your leather.. If it's not too thick you shouldn't have a problem.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:46 pm

Chicago srews (posts) are availble in many sizes and materials.
Here is a link to a great source of just about anything to make stuff with
http://www.mcmaster.com/ Do a search for Chicago Binding Posts
or go to page 3039 and 3040
Happy shopping

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:46 pm

Xanthier wrote:If you were planning on using chicagos you probobly won't mind going with jiffy rivits. They don't look bad and will hold up pretty well.

JIffy Rivets, Yeah they look nice but anything I can pull apart with my bare hands isn't something I trust to protect my body.

Just my oppinion of course.

Sean

Grace Dudley · Post by **Grace Dudley** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:56 pm

Akmatov wrote:Grainne - I'm very interested in exactly what "sort of Locktite that will give under some effort" you are using. Sound like just what I would want to try.

I use Loctite Blue and Green. Blue comes loose with effort. Green takes heat and effort. Blue is handy for test runs when you want rivets to stay put through a little knocking around and then be removable later. Green seems pretty durable so far for rivets that need to stay attached through extended knocking about without being vibrated apart.

I wouldn't recommend Red unless you're pretty sure you will never need to remove that rivet. It requires lots of heat and effort to break and the surrounding leather or cloth might be damaged in the process.

Remember to let the stuff cure for 24 hours if you want it to really stay put. If you do fieldside repairs, wait at least 20 minutes for it to set up and be prepared to have to restick it later if it gets pounded on immediately.

Hope this helps.

Grainne

Bjorn · Post by **Bjorn** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:42 pm

Instead of Locktite you could use either nail polish.

Cheap and easy to buy.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:02 pm

You guys have been great! Thanks for the many suggestions and ideas.

I think this is something I'm going to be interested in pursuing, at least to the extent of making as much of my own harness as possible. And maybe beyond. Is there such a thing as a comprehensive Dumbies Guide to Making Armour? I'm already prowling the essays and patterns.

Dalewyn · Post by **Dalewyn** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:39 pm

Jiffy rivets are fine for a COP. I can break a 16 ga stainless elbow with my bare hands, so that argument doesn't hold up. And the benefits of easy to use & replace and will not tear through your coat (leather or canvas) make them a prime choice, if you don't need absolute authenticy. A good choice for plates would 18 ga mild or stainless, or 1/8" HDPE, ABS or Kydex. The 18 ga mild is probably the cheapest, the stainless will protect the best, and the plastic will be the lightest.

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:30 pm

another easy way to remove rivits... center punch either the head or piened/shaft end and drill them out using a bit of the same size of the hole or the rivit.

I've also used jiffy rivets for a COP and never had problems... gotta get ones that are the right size though. I haven't used locktight before (er, well.. the guy at the bike shop used it on some bolts when we were trying to fit some pannier packs to my bike.. but anyways..), but if people are having trouble with jiffy rivets pulling apart then they might be using ones that are too short to work properly with the thickness of materials that are trying to be joined... maybe locktight could be used inside the same rivets for joining the same thickness of materials... would that help them stay together?

Screw-in Rivets

Screw-in Rivets

Thanks

Hmmm

Re: Thanks

Many Thanks