As always, White Mountain Armoury comes through with style, clean lines and simplistic perfection.
I expected nothing less, but the drool factor is way up there. I will be drilling
them tonight, for use with simple leather thong as a means to attach them to
my forearms - which is his suggestion - beats the heck outta buckles and straps.
The two plates on the inside are riveted to a piece of leather (each), and allow
for varying types of padding underneath. Because they form so well to the arm,
extreme padding is not necessary. I'll be wearing only a thin gambeson, and
they'll fit wonderfully - but because of the construction and use of thong to
secure them, the padding could be much thicker if it were necessary. (or for
cold weather). As always, WMA's response time was great, and we kept in contact
via email througout the process.</p>
Find me at war if you'd like a closer look!</p>
Ulfr
Legio Draconis</p>
[img]http://fete-ish.net/images/bazubands.jpg[/img] </p>
[img]http://fete-ish.net/images/bazubandinside.jpg[/img] </p>
[img]http://fete-ish.net/images/bazubandflip.jpg[/img] </p>
[This message has been edited by Morlahn Hobbs (edited 07-31-2001).]
Review - WMA Bazubands (pics)
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Morlahn Hobbs
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Norman
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Very pretty,
very well finished.
I gotta say though, I have never seen Bazubands of that type before.
What was the historical model, if I may ask?
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
very well finished.
I gotta say though, I have never seen Bazubands of that type before.
What was the historical model, if I may ask?
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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white mountain armoury
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Norman
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I figured that was the case with the elbows.
I'm curious about the arangement of smaller plates.
I have never seen the smaller plates hinged at each side and meeting at the middle.
I also don't remember seeing one hinged on leather in the way you did it (though I have seen helmet cheeks done that way).
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
I'm curious about the arangement of smaller plates.
I have never seen the smaller plates hinged at each side and meeting at the middle.
I also don't remember seeing one hinged on leather in the way you did it (though I have seen helmet cheeks done that way).
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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Kyle Wiegers
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"I have never seen smaller plates that overlap like that".
I have.
Japanese torso armor (the 'Do') is made up of five major sections. Chest, 1 left side plate, back, and two plates make up the right side. One is hinged to the chestplate and another to the backplate. They overlap and have two holes thru each of them in the same spot. You put the armor one from the side, close the "door" on the right and have somebody else loop a rope thru both plates and tie them together.
This overlapping section is always on the right side because that gets hit less in combat (right handed people beat on your left side usually).
Edit:
I should mention that just like European armor there are several ages of Japanes armor too. What I described was from the last age when Japanese armor changed from lots of little metal scales laced together to a few large plates hinged together (often with alot of decorative lacing to make them look old style, but serve no practical function).
[This message has been edited by Kyle Wiegers (edited 08-03-2001).]
I have.
Japanese torso armor (the 'Do') is made up of five major sections. Chest, 1 left side plate, back, and two plates make up the right side. One is hinged to the chestplate and another to the backplate. They overlap and have two holes thru each of them in the same spot. You put the armor one from the side, close the "door" on the right and have somebody else loop a rope thru both plates and tie them together.
This overlapping section is always on the right side because that gets hit less in combat (right handed people beat on your left side usually).
Edit:
I should mention that just like European armor there are several ages of Japanes armor too. What I described was from the last age when Japanese armor changed from lots of little metal scales laced together to a few large plates hinged together (often with alot of decorative lacing to make them look old style, but serve no practical function).
[This message has been edited by Kyle Wiegers (edited 08-03-2001).]
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white mountain armoury
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Norman, the design is all sca based, no historical basis for any of it.
I just wanted to design a bazuband that was easy to make to help keep them in a decent price range. The leather is a quick easy hinge, i wont use comercial hinges and hand made hinges would drive the price up alot. Alot of the bazubands ive looked at hinge on maille, while cool in reality i dont see that type of hinge holding up in combat.
Also if the leather fails it is an easy fix for the owner.
As for the overlap, it depends on the wearer,
they will fit nicely on the owner with or without his gambeson, the bazuband its self is quite deep allowing the back portion to do most of the protecting
Price is soon to change, i have been charging 125.00 a pair but its likely to go up when i satart accepting orders for them again
I just wanted to design a bazuband that was easy to make to help keep them in a decent price range. The leather is a quick easy hinge, i wont use comercial hinges and hand made hinges would drive the price up alot. Alot of the bazubands ive looked at hinge on maille, while cool in reality i dont see that type of hinge holding up in combat.
Also if the leather fails it is an easy fix for the owner.
As for the overlap, it depends on the wearer,
they will fit nicely on the owner with or without his gambeson, the bazuband its self is quite deep allowing the back portion to do most of the protecting
Price is soon to change, i have been charging 125.00 a pair but its likely to go up when i satart accepting orders for them again
-
Norman
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Kyle -
Japanese torso armor (the 'Do') is made up of five major sections.
What does the construction of a Do have to do with a Bazuband?
WMA -
Norman, the design is all sca based, no historical basis for any of it.
Grrr... Urm.
Before jumping to conclusions and getting upset with you I wanted to check. I thought there was something I missed.
But what you're saying -- that's just wrong.
If you did a European styled armour and said that -- you'd have like twenty people all over you in a second.
As the only guy here that seems to care about Eastern authenticity, I would like to point out that what you're doing is in a way worse than "plastic gear".
At least the person getting plastic knows he's wrong --
you have gone with what those Indo-Paki "knightly armours" in the "Noble Collection" are like -- to the person who doesn't know they look all pretty and "knightly", but then he gets to the medieval party and everyone is snickering at him.
DOn't do it. There's no reason.
I just wanted to design a bazuband that was easy to make to help keep them in a decent price range. The leather is a quick easy hinge, i wont use comercial hinges and hand made hinges would drive the price up alot.
My biggest problem is with how you put in the smaller plates. The Bazuband you did for Janos has a single smaller plate hinged at one side.
This is pretty much the period thing.
If you want two plates, they should be hinged to one side of the main plate, and then hinged to each other -- and fastened to the main plate at the other side when putting them on.
(see the example of my Bazubands at this page: http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page10.html )
The way you have done it (by hinging one plate to one side and the other to the other side) is very jarring.
Like I said -- it's the equivalent of those Indo-Paki "knight armours".
And there was no reason to do that.
Alot of the bazubands ive looked at hinge on maille, while cool in reality i dont see that type of hinge holding up in combat.
My major issue was not with the hinge.
Though I do think there were several alternatives to what you did, it is ...theoretically... supportable.
But as a note of information --
while I don't fight much, I have done all of my SCA fighting (including a Pensic) in the one pair of Bazubands. I have never replaced one ring.
Also as an aside --
Why not use commercial hinges?
Using a single long hinge down the hole side of the plate would make for an excelent match to many Indo-Persian models.
Finally, just a note on the elbow pattern.
I understand this is a compromise for SCA reasons and so am not really harping on it -- each person designs his own compromise.
But you can really get far far closer to the period style while remaining SCA safe.
Take a look at that Bazuband photo I linked to above -- I made them at the far end of the period pattern without design compromise. They work.
Admittedly, I compromised by hinging in a small leather plate for the unlikely hyper bend coinciding with a perfect thrust to the elbow.
But at this time I'd not do it this way -- I'd recomend a rerebrace to fit the notch (for what I mean, skim down the same page to see drawings of Indian rerebraces).
Anyhow,
I'm sorry I got all huffy.
Your work is great, I just hope you'll attend to design details here as much as you do with Western designs.
The one change I am pushing for is not really so great -- and I hope you implement it in future projects.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 08-03-2001).]
Japanese torso armor (the 'Do') is made up of five major sections.
What does the construction of a Do have to do with a Bazuband?
WMA -
Norman, the design is all sca based, no historical basis for any of it.
Grrr... Urm.
Before jumping to conclusions and getting upset with you I wanted to check. I thought there was something I missed.
But what you're saying -- that's just wrong.
If you did a European styled armour and said that -- you'd have like twenty people all over you in a second.
As the only guy here that seems to care about Eastern authenticity, I would like to point out that what you're doing is in a way worse than "plastic gear".
At least the person getting plastic knows he's wrong --
you have gone with what those Indo-Paki "knightly armours" in the "Noble Collection" are like -- to the person who doesn't know they look all pretty and "knightly", but then he gets to the medieval party and everyone is snickering at him.
DOn't do it. There's no reason.
I just wanted to design a bazuband that was easy to make to help keep them in a decent price range. The leather is a quick easy hinge, i wont use comercial hinges and hand made hinges would drive the price up alot.
My biggest problem is with how you put in the smaller plates. The Bazuband you did for Janos has a single smaller plate hinged at one side.
This is pretty much the period thing.
If you want two plates, they should be hinged to one side of the main plate, and then hinged to each other -- and fastened to the main plate at the other side when putting them on.
(see the example of my Bazubands at this page: http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page10.html )
The way you have done it (by hinging one plate to one side and the other to the other side) is very jarring.
Like I said -- it's the equivalent of those Indo-Paki "knight armours".
And there was no reason to do that.
Alot of the bazubands ive looked at hinge on maille, while cool in reality i dont see that type of hinge holding up in combat.
My major issue was not with the hinge.
Though I do think there were several alternatives to what you did, it is ...theoretically... supportable.
But as a note of information --
while I don't fight much, I have done all of my SCA fighting (including a Pensic) in the one pair of Bazubands. I have never replaced one ring.
Also as an aside --
Why not use commercial hinges?
Using a single long hinge down the hole side of the plate would make for an excelent match to many Indo-Persian models.
Finally, just a note on the elbow pattern.
I understand this is a compromise for SCA reasons and so am not really harping on it -- each person designs his own compromise.
But you can really get far far closer to the period style while remaining SCA safe.
Take a look at that Bazuband photo I linked to above -- I made them at the far end of the period pattern without design compromise. They work.
Admittedly, I compromised by hinging in a small leather plate for the unlikely hyper bend coinciding with a perfect thrust to the elbow.
But at this time I'd not do it this way -- I'd recomend a rerebrace to fit the notch (for what I mean, skim down the same page to see drawings of Indian rerebraces).
Anyhow,
I'm sorry I got all huffy.
Your work is great, I just hope you'll attend to design details here as much as you do with Western designs.
The one change I am pushing for is not really so great -- and I hope you implement it in future projects.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 08-03-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Norman:
<B>At least the person getting plastic knows he's wrong --
you have gone with what those Indo-Paki "knightly armours" in the "Noble Collection" are like -- to the person who doesn't know they look all pretty and "knightly", but then he gets to the medieval party and everyone is snickering at him. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I'm always pretty lax about periodness (periodicity? peroxide? whatever), and thus my opinion probably won't matter as much, I'll have to disagree with you on this.
WMA's bazubands look good, and while not 100% period, they aren't marketed as such. I figured from the first glance that they weren't period, but they still look great, and I'd proudly wear them. (I'd personally get the non-fluted ones on his site, though)
With a more period closure, would those still be so offensive to you? Remember that not all period examples are SCA legal, or even close. From what I've seen/heard of period bazubands, very few are SCA legal. If you are going to complain about modification of period design as required by SCA safety standards, then its time to come down off your high horse. (see, even a Kung-Fu Master slips up sometimes...)
------------------
"If I don't have enemies, I'm not doing my job" -- Spearhead
<B>At least the person getting plastic knows he's wrong --
you have gone with what those Indo-Paki "knightly armours" in the "Noble Collection" are like -- to the person who doesn't know they look all pretty and "knightly", but then he gets to the medieval party and everyone is snickering at him. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I'm always pretty lax about periodness (periodicity? peroxide? whatever), and thus my opinion probably won't matter as much, I'll have to disagree with you on this.
WMA's bazubands look good, and while not 100% period, they aren't marketed as such. I figured from the first glance that they weren't period, but they still look great, and I'd proudly wear them. (I'd personally get the non-fluted ones on his site, though)
With a more period closure, would those still be so offensive to you? Remember that not all period examples are SCA legal, or even close. From what I've seen/heard of period bazubands, very few are SCA legal. If you are going to complain about modification of period design as required by SCA safety standards, then its time to come down off your high horse. (see, even a Kung-Fu Master slips up sometimes...)
------------------
"If I don't have enemies, I'm not doing my job" -- Spearhead
(see, even a Kung-Fu Master slips up sometimes...)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ok, that's some seriously funny $hit....
------------------
Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ok, that's some seriously funny $hit....
------------------
Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak
-
Norman
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Garridan -
I don't think you were paying attention to what I wrote.
I stated explicitly that I had no problem with the SCA-rule concessions that WMA made.
The problem I had was with the fact that the smaller plates are attached one to the one side of the big plate, the other to the other side.
They should rather be one attached to the main plate, the other to the first.
Steve and GArridan --
Again,
think about the "Noble COllection" Indo-Paki import "knight armours" -- to the person who does not know about historical Western European armour they look realy cool.
To most of us here, they are an offensive joke.
If you analyse why -- it will turn out to be little tell-tales which can esily be corrected.
This is the same situation but with an Eastern style defense.
It was exactly my point -- with plastic - anyone knows its wrong -- with this sort of thing -- many people will think its cool because they don't know better.
WMA has created a prototype.
As I understand, he's made all of two of these, and I doubt he holds any spiritual attachment to the prototype.
Me on the other hand,
I am one of a few people who are really trying hard to better the face of Eastern reenactment (in the face of crap like "Persian maile", "they did not wear armour in the East", and "Muslim" women dancing before a mixed audience in their skivvies as the height of "Eastern" cultural representation)
Instead of y'all jumping in and making this a big defense/offense thing --
what's wrong with saying -- "your prototype has problems here and here" so next time he can correct the problems.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
I don't think you were paying attention to what I wrote.
I stated explicitly that I had no problem with the SCA-rule concessions that WMA made.
The problem I had was with the fact that the smaller plates are attached one to the one side of the big plate, the other to the other side.
They should rather be one attached to the main plate, the other to the first.
Steve and GArridan --
Again,
think about the "Noble COllection" Indo-Paki import "knight armours" -- to the person who does not know about historical Western European armour they look realy cool.
To most of us here, they are an offensive joke.
If you analyse why -- it will turn out to be little tell-tales which can esily be corrected.
This is the same situation but with an Eastern style defense.
It was exactly my point -- with plastic - anyone knows its wrong -- with this sort of thing -- many people will think its cool because they don't know better.
WMA has created a prototype.
As I understand, he's made all of two of these, and I doubt he holds any spiritual attachment to the prototype.
Me on the other hand,
I am one of a few people who are really trying hard to better the face of Eastern reenactment (in the face of crap like "Persian maile", "they did not wear armour in the East", and "Muslim" women dancing before a mixed audience in their skivvies as the height of "Eastern" cultural representation)
Instead of y'all jumping in and making this a big defense/offense thing --
what's wrong with saying -- "your prototype has problems here and here" so next time he can correct the problems.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Hmm... that was supposed to be a bit tounge in cheek... looking back, exactly 1 sentence was actually tounge in cheek, and sounded somewhat instigatory... *sigh*
The Noble Collection/Indo-Paki crap has more than little tell-tales wrong with it... I think that WMA's bazubands are FAR better than to be compared with that crap. My agitation was not because of your input (And if I ever do anything eastern, your input is welcome, no... requested), but because of the severity of the insult (which seemed rather flame-ish).
The Noble Collection/Indo-Paki crap has more than little tell-tales wrong with it... I think that WMA's bazubands are FAR better than to be compared with that crap. My agitation was not because of your input (And if I ever do anything eastern, your input is welcome, no... requested), but because of the severity of the insult (which seemed rather flame-ish).
-
Norman
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Garridan -
What's wrong with the "Noble Collection" stuff if you're not familiar with Western European armour styling??
IMHO - the armours are all made quite neatly and attentively -- they are a bit thinner at 18 guage then we're used to for SCA - but that's not a matter for quality at all - its a matter of user purpose.
The reason you find them so glaring and thus my statement such an insult is precisely because you are so familiar with Western gear.
The reason you find the Bazubands shown here so cool -- is because of the lack of familiarity with Eastern gear.
The only thing close to insulting that I find after thinking about the comparison is the lack of historical knowledge in the viewer and purchaser. ie: while not meant at all, the only possible insult may be to you or Steve -- but not to WMA.
But why should lack of specific knowledge be regarded as an insult?
Near Eastern reectment has been severely neglected in the USA.
Not surprising as the cultural heritage is Western while the faddish culture is Far Eastern.
(here - someone e-mailed to ask me advice on a Arab personna ...after I pressed the person a bit to get an idea of period and such, turned out the guy realy wanted to do an Armenian personna -- but figured Arab was close enough and he wasn't likely to get info on Armenians -- to explain why the example is relevant - it's a little akin to asking about Italians as a "close enough" idea of a Russian)
Honest mistakes are therefore to be expected.
But defending and perpetuating the mistakes is not at all apropriate.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 08-06-2001).]
What's wrong with the "Noble Collection" stuff if you're not familiar with Western European armour styling??
IMHO - the armours are all made quite neatly and attentively -- they are a bit thinner at 18 guage then we're used to for SCA - but that's not a matter for quality at all - its a matter of user purpose.
The reason you find them so glaring and thus my statement such an insult is precisely because you are so familiar with Western gear.
The reason you find the Bazubands shown here so cool -- is because of the lack of familiarity with Eastern gear.
The only thing close to insulting that I find after thinking about the comparison is the lack of historical knowledge in the viewer and purchaser. ie: while not meant at all, the only possible insult may be to you or Steve -- but not to WMA.
But why should lack of specific knowledge be regarded as an insult?
Near Eastern reectment has been severely neglected in the USA.
Not surprising as the cultural heritage is Western while the faddish culture is Far Eastern.
(here - someone e-mailed to ask me advice on a Arab personna ...after I pressed the person a bit to get an idea of period and such, turned out the guy realy wanted to do an Armenian personna -- but figured Arab was close enough and he wasn't likely to get info on Armenians -- to explain why the example is relevant - it's a little akin to asking about Italians as a "close enough" idea of a Russian)
Honest mistakes are therefore to be expected.
But defending and perpetuating the mistakes is not at all apropriate.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 08-06-2001).]
-
white mountain armoury
- Archive Member
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- Location: the Taiga
those bazubands are made the same as Janos pair, they are the same as the pair on my page, ive made 4 pairs and they are all the same, the overlap On Hobbs pair is only slightly larger than the pair belonging to janos, Janos is i believe around 6'7 and his arms are quite long making for a more slender shape, Hobbs arms are quite a bit shorter making for a less slender shape.
Also the forarms pieces are hanging slack on their hinges adding to the look of a large overlap.
As for their shape, im perfectly capable of making an accurate bazuband, its a simple piece or armour, what i have done is takens a shape and made it suit our game, my shape was designed to offer the same elbow protection as a cop. I designed these with a marshal to come up with a shape that offered excellent protection
no where on my site do i claim to be creating historical reproductions.
Look at how many armouries have a coppergate helm that looks nothing like hte original, or how many armouries have decided if its fluted its gothic, if its smooth it italian, ive made an effort not to do the same
Ill change the name on my website from bazuband to something with not historical/ethnic implications.
im pretty isulted by your comments and ill just leave it at that.
If my work has somehow intruded on something you hold sacred well life can sometimes be like that
[This message has been edited by White Mountain Armoury (edited 08-06-2001).]
Also the forarms pieces are hanging slack on their hinges adding to the look of a large overlap.
As for their shape, im perfectly capable of making an accurate bazuband, its a simple piece or armour, what i have done is takens a shape and made it suit our game, my shape was designed to offer the same elbow protection as a cop. I designed these with a marshal to come up with a shape that offered excellent protection
no where on my site do i claim to be creating historical reproductions.
Look at how many armouries have a coppergate helm that looks nothing like hte original, or how many armouries have decided if its fluted its gothic, if its smooth it italian, ive made an effort not to do the same
Ill change the name on my website from bazuband to something with not historical/ethnic implications.
im pretty isulted by your comments and ill just leave it at that.
If my work has somehow intruded on something you hold sacred well life can sometimes be like that
[This message has been edited by White Mountain Armoury (edited 08-06-2001).]
-
Norman
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WMA,
Really, I keep trying to say
...and unfortunately failing and insulting further
it's not at all the pattern I'm objecting to.
Just the very minor matter of having the small plates attached where they are.
Is it such a problem to attach at one side of the large plate?
Or to make one small plate instead of two?
(this is what I thought Janos' Bazubands had)
As for the Coopergate (or Sutton Hoo) example --
Hell, there are some armouries that make a spuntop and call it a Spangenhelm.
Don't mean they're right.
And folks here jump all over them.
Gundo for instance (at least to my view) tends to criticise to death the smallest inacuracy on a Western defense.
I have not meant to insult you.
I commented on a very simple problem with your design that is very easy to fix.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Really, I keep trying to say
...and unfortunately failing and insulting further
it's not at all the pattern I'm objecting to.
Just the very minor matter of having the small plates attached where they are.
Is it such a problem to attach at one side of the large plate?
Or to make one small plate instead of two?
(this is what I thought Janos' Bazubands had)
As for the Coopergate (or Sutton Hoo) example --
Hell, there are some armouries that make a spuntop and call it a Spangenhelm.
Don't mean they're right.
And folks here jump all over them.
Gundo for instance (at least to my view) tends to criticise to death the smallest inacuracy on a Western defense.
I have not meant to insult you.
I commented on a very simple problem with your design that is very easy to fix.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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white mountain armoury
- Archive Member
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Norman, its fine you dont like my design, few things of mine are ever the same twice, and no Janos pair hinge one from each side, the only diff is On the pair i made for Janos i added a suede flap to one splint that went all the way across, that side gets closed first. other than that they are the same.
As i said i dont care if you like my work or not, im influenced as much by the art of Frazetta as i am by actual armour, i make what i make, how i like to make it.
My bazuband still does not look like my drawings, someday it will.
If your only issue was with the attatchment of the splints you should have said so, to berate my work, or to compare it with something people here think is crap like the noble collection or plastic bucket armour is quite insulting intended or not
As i said i dont care if you like my work or not, im influenced as much by the art of Frazetta as i am by actual armour, i make what i make, how i like to make it.
My bazuband still does not look like my drawings, someday it will.
If your only issue was with the attatchment of the splints you should have said so, to berate my work, or to compare it with something people here think is crap like the noble collection or plastic bucket armour is quite insulting intended or not
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Norman
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- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
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no Janos pair hinge one from each side
Oh, from your sites photo it looks like there is only one small plate.
If your only issue was with the attatchment of the splints you should have said so,
I did say precisely that right up front.
...and before that wanted to check that there was nothing I was missing from a historical context.
to berate my work,
I thought I expressed immediately my apreciation for the workmanship of the piece.
And I still say -- and would say to everyone that your workmanship is first class.
I don't think I ever said otherwise.
or to compare it with something people here think is crap like the noble collection
The noble collection's armour is constructed well and looks great IF YOU DON'T KNOW what European armour is supposed to look like.
The only reason people here don't like it is because it is so completely unlike anything period -- and the company doesn't have a problem with that.
You seem to be expressing the same thing.
They say they're selling "Knight's Armour".
You say you're selling a Bazuband.
I realy don't understand how the comparison is unfaire.
It feels different to you -- because you feel what is right or wrong in Western Armour.
...and I never likened your armour to plastic armour.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Oh, from your sites photo it looks like there is only one small plate.
If your only issue was with the attatchment of the splints you should have said so,
I did say precisely that right up front.
...and before that wanted to check that there was nothing I was missing from a historical context.
to berate my work,
I thought I expressed immediately my apreciation for the workmanship of the piece.
And I still say -- and would say to everyone that your workmanship is first class.
I don't think I ever said otherwise.
or to compare it with something people here think is crap like the noble collection
The noble collection's armour is constructed well and looks great IF YOU DON'T KNOW what European armour is supposed to look like.
The only reason people here don't like it is because it is so completely unlike anything period -- and the company doesn't have a problem with that.
You seem to be expressing the same thing.
They say they're selling "Knight's Armour".
You say you're selling a Bazuband.
I realy don't understand how the comparison is unfaire.
It feels different to you -- because you feel what is right or wrong in Western Armour.
...and I never likened your armour to plastic armour.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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chef de chambre
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Hi All,
Not that Adam needs defending - the quality of his work speaks for itself. My own two groats on what has become un unintentional gale of postings.
1.Adam does not use commercial hinges, as a matter of him not thinking them good enough for his product. This is his choice, and it's no ones concern as Adam has every right to make this choice - we should honour it as the choice of a craftsman. He clearly stated this in one of his postings.
2. Adam is completely capable of making historical bazibunds - he certainly can make more complex items of high quality and accuracy, as I can personaly attest to having visited his shop and handled his wares first hand.
3.His compromise is for SCA safety standards, the cost the market will bear (and his time is undervalued if anything - this is a big consideration as time to make an item adds to the cost), and his own sense of artistry. I think it rather odd that some people should complain at a craftsman or artist indulging their creativity, especially if the item is not being billed as a historicaly authentic piece. God knows I have never complained when Rob Valentine has made such lovely pieces as some of his fantasy dragon sallets. I choose not to buy them as they are not my personal cup of tea, but I admire the artistry and skill involved.
I know you didn't mean to offend Norman, but in this case I think your peeing into a high wind, and coming off the worse for it. Were I you, I would let it go and retain my dignity.
------------------
Bob R.
Not that Adam needs defending - the quality of his work speaks for itself. My own two groats on what has become un unintentional gale of postings.
1.Adam does not use commercial hinges, as a matter of him not thinking them good enough for his product. This is his choice, and it's no ones concern as Adam has every right to make this choice - we should honour it as the choice of a craftsman. He clearly stated this in one of his postings.
2. Adam is completely capable of making historical bazibunds - he certainly can make more complex items of high quality and accuracy, as I can personaly attest to having visited his shop and handled his wares first hand.
3.His compromise is for SCA safety standards, the cost the market will bear (and his time is undervalued if anything - this is a big consideration as time to make an item adds to the cost), and his own sense of artistry. I think it rather odd that some people should complain at a craftsman or artist indulging their creativity, especially if the item is not being billed as a historicaly authentic piece. God knows I have never complained when Rob Valentine has made such lovely pieces as some of his fantasy dragon sallets. I choose not to buy them as they are not my personal cup of tea, but I admire the artistry and skill involved.
I know you didn't mean to offend Norman, but in this case I think your peeing into a high wind, and coming off the worse for it. Were I you, I would let it go and retain my dignity.
------------------
Bob R.
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Le Brassey
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Joe Skeesick
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Norman
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First,
Let me once more apologise for the admittedly possibly pissy phrasing of my objection.
Let me state that Adam's technique is indeed fabulous, and I have a long way to go in many ways to aproach his technical ability.
I will also state that his sense of artistic/aesthetic choice where it comes to European design pieces is also quite amazing.
However,
I am quite surprised at the form of chef's defense considering his previous comments on European reenactor choices including camp furniture and even the breed of horse a reenactor choses to use.
Maybe in adressing chef's comments I can clarify things.
Maybe I'll wind up offending further.
Again -- this was never meant to be an attack on an artist's ability.
1.Adam does not use commercial hinges
This was never a matter of objection.
I just a question about why he thought they were not good.
2. Adam is completely capable of making historical bazibunds
This may possibly be more of an objection rather than a defense - you're saying he knows better but choses not to.
But again -- HIs ability was never in question.
In fact - his fantasy Saracen Vambraces show as definite and clear artistic and technical ability as the rest of the armour he makes.
-- I am reminded of the objection people raised to "13th Warrior" and "Gladiator" -- "they could do it cheaper and more period - why do they chose to make those glaring mistakes?"
3.His compromise is for SCA safety standards, the cost the market will bear (and his time is undervalued if anything
Again -- none of these were disputed.
The issue in dispute -- incorect hinging of the inner plates (and corresponding incorect curve of these) - done correctly they would take no more time or effort (time or effort would be less) and be no less SCA safe.
and his own sense of artistry. I think it rather odd that some people should complain at a craftsman or artist indulging their creativity, especially if the item is not being billed as a historicaly authentic piece.
This is where I have a strong problem with this whole thing.
He calls his vambrace -- "Bazubands".
This means -- Persian Vambrace.
Hence my anology to the Indo/Paki "Knights Armour". They make no more statement to authenticity than he does - calling them at best "English Armour" or "Spanish Armour".
The claim is directly paralel -- so if one is offended at being compared with these efforts, then one knows in his heart of hearts that he's wrong.
Again -- the only distinction is that all you guys LIVE with Western Armour and FEEL every detail that is stylistically wrong.
But as soon as we move East of Hungary -- then pretty much anything seems to be okay as long as there's some generic feel to it. The Pakistani craftsmen are guilty of the same thing -- those things most here consider monstrosities "feel" like English armour to them
(at one point I carried on a correspondense with a young armourer in Pakistan -- he was as thourough in detailing Indian and Pakistani gear as you folks do Burgundian, but his Western gear had the same look as the "Noble Collection")
God knows I have never complained when Rob Valentine has made such lovely pieces as some of his fantasy dragon sallets.
Those are marketed as fantasy. People going to the Valentine site have a large selection with comments on period and origin.
A person traveling the Web looking for "Bazuband" might hit five sites or so. (I don't know - havent tried)
Mine would be one. White Mountain would be a second. The rest would be SCA/fantasy leather monstrosities.
The only possibility that the average undereducated consumer may know that White Mountain's work is not accurate is if he read my article thoroughly (and even then, the article may not clearly state this) and believed me. Seeing the nature of the web, this is not very likely.
If Adam called his work something like Fantasy Saracen Vambrace I would not have one word against it and may have written a short message to praise his artistry.
I know you didn't mean to offend Norman, but in this case I think your peeing into a high wind, and coming off the worse for it. Were I you, I would let it go and retain my dignity.
If the paralel liberties were taken with a Western European harness this whole board would have been all over the artist and any person defending his artistic choices would have been verbally lynched.
I find this conversation trully ironic considering the wonderful fantasy efforts (that were marketed as such) that have previously been ripped to shreds here --
where all I did was to suggest a minor alteration for future vambraces that would cost nothing in time or effort (instead of punching a hole on the left, punch it on the right ...or use one plate instead of two).
-------------------------------
"A lone voice crying out in the wilderness ...as women pine for Thamuz in the courtyard of the Temple"
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Let me once more apologise for the admittedly possibly pissy phrasing of my objection.
Let me state that Adam's technique is indeed fabulous, and I have a long way to go in many ways to aproach his technical ability.
I will also state that his sense of artistic/aesthetic choice where it comes to European design pieces is also quite amazing.
However,
I am quite surprised at the form of chef's defense considering his previous comments on European reenactor choices including camp furniture and even the breed of horse a reenactor choses to use.
Maybe in adressing chef's comments I can clarify things.
Maybe I'll wind up offending further.
Again -- this was never meant to be an attack on an artist's ability.
1.Adam does not use commercial hinges
This was never a matter of objection.
I just a question about why he thought they were not good.
2. Adam is completely capable of making historical bazibunds
This may possibly be more of an objection rather than a defense - you're saying he knows better but choses not to.
But again -- HIs ability was never in question.
In fact - his fantasy Saracen Vambraces show as definite and clear artistic and technical ability as the rest of the armour he makes.
-- I am reminded of the objection people raised to "13th Warrior" and "Gladiator" -- "they could do it cheaper and more period - why do they chose to make those glaring mistakes?"
3.His compromise is for SCA safety standards, the cost the market will bear (and his time is undervalued if anything
Again -- none of these were disputed.
The issue in dispute -- incorect hinging of the inner plates (and corresponding incorect curve of these) - done correctly they would take no more time or effort (time or effort would be less) and be no less SCA safe.
and his own sense of artistry. I think it rather odd that some people should complain at a craftsman or artist indulging their creativity, especially if the item is not being billed as a historicaly authentic piece.
This is where I have a strong problem with this whole thing.
He calls his vambrace -- "Bazubands".
This means -- Persian Vambrace.
Hence my anology to the Indo/Paki "Knights Armour". They make no more statement to authenticity than he does - calling them at best "English Armour" or "Spanish Armour".
The claim is directly paralel -- so if one is offended at being compared with these efforts, then one knows in his heart of hearts that he's wrong.
Again -- the only distinction is that all you guys LIVE with Western Armour and FEEL every detail that is stylistically wrong.
But as soon as we move East of Hungary -- then pretty much anything seems to be okay as long as there's some generic feel to it. The Pakistani craftsmen are guilty of the same thing -- those things most here consider monstrosities "feel" like English armour to them
(at one point I carried on a correspondense with a young armourer in Pakistan -- he was as thourough in detailing Indian and Pakistani gear as you folks do Burgundian, but his Western gear had the same look as the "Noble Collection")
God knows I have never complained when Rob Valentine has made such lovely pieces as some of his fantasy dragon sallets.
Those are marketed as fantasy. People going to the Valentine site have a large selection with comments on period and origin.
A person traveling the Web looking for "Bazuband" might hit five sites or so. (I don't know - havent tried)
Mine would be one. White Mountain would be a second. The rest would be SCA/fantasy leather monstrosities.
The only possibility that the average undereducated consumer may know that White Mountain's work is not accurate is if he read my article thoroughly (and even then, the article may not clearly state this) and believed me. Seeing the nature of the web, this is not very likely.
If Adam called his work something like Fantasy Saracen Vambrace I would not have one word against it and may have written a short message to praise his artistry.
I know you didn't mean to offend Norman, but in this case I think your peeing into a high wind, and coming off the worse for it. Were I you, I would let it go and retain my dignity.
If the paralel liberties were taken with a Western European harness this whole board would have been all over the artist and any person defending his artistic choices would have been verbally lynched.
I find this conversation trully ironic considering the wonderful fantasy efforts (that were marketed as such) that have previously been ripped to shreds here --
where all I did was to suggest a minor alteration for future vambraces that would cost nothing in time or effort (instead of punching a hole on the left, punch it on the right ...or use one plate instead of two).
-------------------------------
"A lone voice crying out in the wilderness ...as women pine for Thamuz in the courtyard of the Temple"
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
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muttman
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- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Aethelmarc (upstate NY)
First let me echo Chef and say Adam doen`t need my help defending himself.
Next let me say that Normans wealth of knowledge on an often overlooked aspect of armor and history is impressive and appreciated by many.
Third let me say that other than recognizing the general shape and function of a bazuband, I know little about them. I personaly am not interested in near east armor.
That all being said, one thing kept coming to mind while reading this debate. That is the (probably unintentional) vibe of smug omnipitance I got from Norman on the subject of bazubands. The impression I get is that Norman must have seen every bazuband ever made in period to be able to discount so completely WMA`s design as incorrect. I also, especialy given the high quality of WMA`s work, found the comparison to the Noble Collection, and plastic to be quite condiscending, unwarrented,and insulting even if it was not intended as such. That IS how it came across.
This is something that comes up a lot with western armor too as Norman pointed out. My answer is the same there. Is it not possible, considering that materials used, and technology used, that WMA`s design could have appeared on a battlefield somewhere and somewhen? I have to think its concievable. The "liberties" taken by WMA were small at best, this has been admited by all parties.
As I (and Norman) said earlier,this happens with western armor too. My opinion has always been that if it is something that within the confines of materials, technology, and function could have appeared, that is good enough for me. I don`t need to see every bit of armor on the field as an exact replica of the small number of examples we have to work from. I also like to see artistic varience in armor, as long as form doesn`t overcome function.
Btw, I have a similar opinion of armor in the movies. I am more rigid in my opinions of movie armor, because with the budgets these people are working with, they can afford to get it at least close, but as long as stuff is close, and looks like it would perform the function it was intended for, I let it go. After all, only a handfull of anal retentive know it alls like ourselves are going to notice anyway
My problem with The messenger was more with historical inacuracy than with technical ones, and we won`t even get into Braveheart! Movies like thirteenth Warrior and Gladiator were stories, and as such entertained me. I didn`t look for or expect historical accuracies.
" And thats all I have to say about that."
John
------------------
"and the springfieldians heroicly slaughtered there enemys while they prayed for mercy!"
[This message has been edited by muttman (edited 08-07-2001).]
Next let me say that Normans wealth of knowledge on an often overlooked aspect of armor and history is impressive and appreciated by many.
Third let me say that other than recognizing the general shape and function of a bazuband, I know little about them. I personaly am not interested in near east armor.
That all being said, one thing kept coming to mind while reading this debate. That is the (probably unintentional) vibe of smug omnipitance I got from Norman on the subject of bazubands. The impression I get is that Norman must have seen every bazuband ever made in period to be able to discount so completely WMA`s design as incorrect. I also, especialy given the high quality of WMA`s work, found the comparison to the Noble Collection, and plastic to be quite condiscending, unwarrented,and insulting even if it was not intended as such. That IS how it came across.
This is something that comes up a lot with western armor too as Norman pointed out. My answer is the same there. Is it not possible, considering that materials used, and technology used, that WMA`s design could have appeared on a battlefield somewhere and somewhen? I have to think its concievable. The "liberties" taken by WMA were small at best, this has been admited by all parties.
As I (and Norman) said earlier,this happens with western armor too. My opinion has always been that if it is something that within the confines of materials, technology, and function could have appeared, that is good enough for me. I don`t need to see every bit of armor on the field as an exact replica of the small number of examples we have to work from. I also like to see artistic varience in armor, as long as form doesn`t overcome function.
Btw, I have a similar opinion of armor in the movies. I am more rigid in my opinions of movie armor, because with the budgets these people are working with, they can afford to get it at least close, but as long as stuff is close, and looks like it would perform the function it was intended for, I let it go. After all, only a handfull of anal retentive know it alls like ourselves are going to notice anyway
My problem with The messenger was more with historical inacuracy than with technical ones, and we won`t even get into Braveheart! Movies like thirteenth Warrior and Gladiator were stories, and as such entertained me. I didn`t look for or expect historical accuracies." And thats all I have to say about that."
John
------------------
"and the springfieldians heroicly slaughtered there enemys while they prayed for mercy!"
[This message has been edited by muttman (edited 08-07-2001).]
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Norman
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I just can't help digging myself deeper.
Thank you Steve for expressing exactly how I feel about the results of this thread.
muttman said
That is the (probably unintentional) vibe of smug omnipitance I got from Norman on the subject of bazubands.
That was exactly what I feared of myself.
I was also actually intrigued that WMA may have found pieces I've never seen.
That's why I made two posts asking for sources.
found the comparison to the Noble Collection, ...to be quite condiscending
People keep saying how terrible the NOble Collection's armour is. Why? What's wrong with it?
My opinion has always been that if it is something that within the confines of materials, technology, and function could have appeared, that is good enough for me.
"They had rivets, they had blue fabric. My jeans are period."
-------------------------------
"A lone voice crying out in the wilderness ...as women pine for Thamuz in the courtyard of the Temple"
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Thank you Steve for expressing exactly how I feel about the results of this thread.
muttman said
That is the (probably unintentional) vibe of smug omnipitance I got from Norman on the subject of bazubands.
That was exactly what I feared of myself.
I was also actually intrigued that WMA may have found pieces I've never seen.
That's why I made two posts asking for sources.
found the comparison to the Noble Collection, ...to be quite condiscending
People keep saying how terrible the NOble Collection's armour is. Why? What's wrong with it?
My opinion has always been that if it is something that within the confines of materials, technology, and function could have appeared, that is good enough for me.
"They had rivets, they had blue fabric. My jeans are period."
-------------------------------
"A lone voice crying out in the wilderness ...as women pine for Thamuz in the courtyard of the Temple"
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Wow guysm there does seems to be somewhat of a double standard here on the archive when it comes to eastern and western armours. Chef de chambre, I did not expect you of all people to be on the side of interpretive fantasy on this one..
However, Norman could have expressed himself much better than he did (but then, Gundo.. aaanyway..)
I still think that WMA's work is splendid -- not quite historically accurate in this case, but light years ahead of some of what it's been compared to here in the heat of an argument. The western stuff is beyond reproach (gotta love the bascinets..) Norm, I think you are letting "the better be the enemy of the good" in this case -- look at some of what has been labeled as a basuband in the past -- while WMA's model is readily recognizable as such, even if the historical design is slightly altered.
If I was ordering a pair from Adam, I would specify that I want a single plate instead of two smaller ones. However, since I am not, the decision is between the informed customer and informed armourer. Since Ulfr is clearly using an extrapolation to satisfy SCA reqs anyway (his name sounds scandinavian.. and Vikings didn't wear bazubands, although they could have picked them up along with the face helm and the rest of the fudges we have to perform to look decent on the field), no harm done.
Now, if it was for someone who was portraying a Kipchaq, who requested historically accurate bazubands.. but it's not.
However, Norman could have expressed himself much better than he did (but then, Gundo.. aaanyway..)
I still think that WMA's work is splendid -- not quite historically accurate in this case, but light years ahead of some of what it's been compared to here in the heat of an argument. The western stuff is beyond reproach (gotta love the bascinets..) Norm, I think you are letting "the better be the enemy of the good" in this case -- look at some of what has been labeled as a basuband in the past -- while WMA's model is readily recognizable as such, even if the historical design is slightly altered.
If I was ordering a pair from Adam, I would specify that I want a single plate instead of two smaller ones. However, since I am not, the decision is between the informed customer and informed armourer. Since Ulfr is clearly using an extrapolation to satisfy SCA reqs anyway (his name sounds scandinavian.. and Vikings didn't wear bazubands, although they could have picked them up along with the face helm and the rest of the fudges we have to perform to look decent on the field), no harm done.
Now, if it was for someone who was portraying a Kipchaq, who requested historically accurate bazubands.. but it's not.
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muttman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2644
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Aethelmarc (upstate NY)
My opinion has always been that if it is something that within the confines of materials, technology, and function could have appeared, that is good enough for me.
"They had rivets, they had blue fabric. My jeans are period."
LOL! Point taken! Allow me to add "up to a point"
Jeans go well beyond that point.
As to the Noble Collection, and other such ilk, to my eye, it is over glitzy, gaudy,junk that does NOT look like it would function as it should.
John
------------------
"and the springfieldians heroicly slaughtered there enemys while they prayed for mercy!"
"They had rivets, they had blue fabric. My jeans are period."
LOL! Point taken! Allow me to add "up to a point"
Jeans go well beyond that point.
As to the Noble Collection, and other such ilk, to my eye, it is over glitzy, gaudy,junk that does NOT look like it would function as it should.
John
------------------
"and the springfieldians heroicly slaughtered there enemys while they prayed for mercy!"
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Rev. George
- Archive Member
- Posts: 8917
- Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: athens. ga usa
- Contact:
i follow george's rules or periodicity:
an item is ok by me if any of the following are met:
1. the item is a copy of an existant item (ie a goth sallet like the sigismund)
2. the item is based upon iconographic evidence ( ie a kettle hat from the mispronounski bible)
3. The item is creatable using methods available to persons in the period AND there is a reason for it to have been done.
-+G
an item is ok by me if any of the following are met:
1. the item is a copy of an existant item (ie a goth sallet like the sigismund)
2. the item is based upon iconographic evidence ( ie a kettle hat from the mispronounski bible)
3. The item is creatable using methods available to persons in the period AND there is a reason for it to have been done.
-+G
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chef de chambre
- Archive Member
- Posts: 28806
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
- Contact:
Norman -
You can't understand my position, primarily because as you state on your website for the Red Kanganate - to paraphrase - you can't understand the difference in definition, nor see any signifigant differences between re-creation, re-enactment, and living history. You assume all things are the same.
These are SCA items of armour, made with the various silly SCA combat rules in consideration, and the notorious lack of that specific market being amenable to coughing up a reasonable ammount of dosh for an item. They want Rolls Royces for the price of a tricycle (please note that this is a broad generalization, with obvious and notable exceptions). They also don't give a flying fig as a general rule to authenticity - metal armour is considered 'authentic'. Your drive for authenticity in the SCA is futile, and foolish. You can improve your kit, and hope to inspire, but you can never force that minimum bar any higher than it is - because what you do is not re-enactment, this coupled with the all-inclusiveness of the Society makes authenticity less important. It just ain't a foundation block of your game.
Since the SCA is basically a Medivally themed social club, with no minimum standard of authenticity, why are you giving one of the better SCA armourers in operation such a hard time?
'Bazibund' is akin to 'vambrace'. All sorts of crap has been called such, and these are very nice, if admitedly a-historical. You don't have the copyright on the word, and if he were selling to an Iranian or Iraqi market, he would have to use this generic term to describe what the hell they are.
You will look long and hard to find me critisizing or posting critisizims of armourers - regardless of their skill, or the authenticity of their work. I myself only buy the most authentic gear I can lay hands on or afford, but if you are to search this site, you will find numerous posts of me trying to help budding armourers, or helpfully point out what details they can concentrate on refining in their ongoing work.
Anybody can get a period piece out of Adam any time they want. All they have to do is pony up the dough and commission the damn thing. Considering the grief they get from louts out there (you know damn well who you are), I'm surprised any of them - Adam, Gundo, HW, Crimson Hammer, etc bother to carry on with the business. They could certainly make more money applying their talents to a market that cares about what they do and is willing to pay a living wage.
Hows about showing us some of the many bazibunds you have made, and do a side by side comparison of your work and the real thing? You bill yourself as an armourer after all. Surely you can come up with some good side by side comparisons.
------------------
Bob R.
You can't understand my position, primarily because as you state on your website for the Red Kanganate - to paraphrase - you can't understand the difference in definition, nor see any signifigant differences between re-creation, re-enactment, and living history. You assume all things are the same.
These are SCA items of armour, made with the various silly SCA combat rules in consideration, and the notorious lack of that specific market being amenable to coughing up a reasonable ammount of dosh for an item. They want Rolls Royces for the price of a tricycle (please note that this is a broad generalization, with obvious and notable exceptions). They also don't give a flying fig as a general rule to authenticity - metal armour is considered 'authentic'. Your drive for authenticity in the SCA is futile, and foolish. You can improve your kit, and hope to inspire, but you can never force that minimum bar any higher than it is - because what you do is not re-enactment, this coupled with the all-inclusiveness of the Society makes authenticity less important. It just ain't a foundation block of your game.
Since the SCA is basically a Medivally themed social club, with no minimum standard of authenticity, why are you giving one of the better SCA armourers in operation such a hard time?
'Bazibund' is akin to 'vambrace'. All sorts of crap has been called such, and these are very nice, if admitedly a-historical. You don't have the copyright on the word, and if he were selling to an Iranian or Iraqi market, he would have to use this generic term to describe what the hell they are.
You will look long and hard to find me critisizing or posting critisizims of armourers - regardless of their skill, or the authenticity of their work. I myself only buy the most authentic gear I can lay hands on or afford, but if you are to search this site, you will find numerous posts of me trying to help budding armourers, or helpfully point out what details they can concentrate on refining in their ongoing work.
Anybody can get a period piece out of Adam any time they want. All they have to do is pony up the dough and commission the damn thing. Considering the grief they get from louts out there (you know damn well who you are), I'm surprised any of them - Adam, Gundo, HW, Crimson Hammer, etc bother to carry on with the business. They could certainly make more money applying their talents to a market that cares about what they do and is willing to pay a living wage.
Hows about showing us some of the many bazibunds you have made, and do a side by side comparison of your work and the real thing? You bill yourself as an armourer after all. Surely you can come up with some good side by side comparisons.
------------------
Bob R.
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Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
You can't understand my position, primarily because ...- to paraphrase - you can't understand the difference in definition, nor see any signifigant differences between re-creation, re-enactment, and living history. You assume all things are the same.
Firstly, you mischaracterise my position.
I certainly understand the difference between a reenactment of a particular historical battle vs an SCA-battle, between a third-person descriptive reenactment and a play acted reenactment...etc.
I just disagree with you that one or another of these pursiuts is better served by one or another or the third of these terms (or that the terms are used in any consistant fashion to refer to any of these).
Secondly our disagreement on terms is irrelevant as your detail comments I refer to were often precisely to people speaking in the SCA context.
These are SCA items of armour, made with the various silly SCA combat rules in consideration, and the notorious lack of ... coughing up a reasonable ammount of dosh for an item. They want Rolls Royces...
See, now it looks like for some reason you've just decided to write long winded comments without reading what you're theoretically replying to.
I have stated several times and specifically that I had no objections to anything Adam did with respect to SCA rules modifications or financial considerations.
The detail change I proposed would leave the article exactly the same effort and financial wise (and possibly simpler).
My sole proposal is that in one place the hinge be put on the left instead of the right (or vice versa).
They also don't give a flying fig as a general rule to authenticity ... Your drive for authenticity in the SCA is futile and foolish. ...It just ain't a foundation block of your game.
This is an irrelevancy as well.
If a client says -- I want X,Y,Z he'll get X,Y,Z ...this is an issue of representation.
An armour-ignorant person coming to the "Noble Collection" thinks he's buying a suit of "English knight's armour".
Most folks on this board get really upset at the horrible mischaracterisation that this is.
An Eastern-armour-ignorant person looking for Bazubands (a term in English refering to Persian Vambraces) will think he is buying the same from WMA (yes, he will expect simplifications for financial reasons, he will expect modifications for SCA rules, but should he be expected to realise that there are stylistic differences that have nothing to do with anything at all).
If our standards make us offended at the differences we think are present between an "English armour" and a Indo/Paki version of the same, then how is the current situation different?
Since the SCA is basically a Medivally themed social club, with no minimum standard of authenticity, why are you giving one of the better SCA armourers in operation such a hard time?
All I suggested is that next time he puts one of those together, he makes the connection in a different spot.
It is perceived as a "hard time" because I have had to spend so long trying to defend the idea that an item of Eastern Armour should get an amount of attention at least somewhere close to a similar item of Western Armour.
'Bazibund' is akin to 'vambrace'.
Well, no.
In Iran, Bazuband would probably just be the word for arm defense.
If you are speaking English, you make a certain assertion by your choice to use the Persian term instead of the common English one. You are asserting that you are refering to specifically a Persian Arm Defense.
All sorts of crap has been called such
Yes, and I've seen an armoury call a Spun-top a Spangenhelm.
And if someone talked about any of these on this Board, the mistake would be pointed out quite forcefully.
Anybody can get a period piece out of Adam any time they want.
But if they come looking for a Bazuband, they'll get the item in question.
I presume (and maybe I'm wrong here) that he will not go into what the changes were to it.
...and one more time --
I'm NOT talking about SCA-safety issues.
I AM talking about a stylistic change that has nothing to do with SCA or financial issues or time considerations.
Hows about showing us some of the many bazibunds you have made, and do a side by side comparison of your work and the real thing?
I have already stated that I think WMA's technique is far superior to mine.
I believe I may have stated that towards the very begining of this discussion.
I have showed an example of my work --
There is a photo of one I already have a link to above (again, makes me think you are not reading what I have to say).
...I have also mentioned the SCA modification I made to it.
For a photo showing a decent sample of originals you can look at Stone's "Glossary".
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Firstly, you mischaracterise my position.
I certainly understand the difference between a reenactment of a particular historical battle vs an SCA-battle, between a third-person descriptive reenactment and a play acted reenactment...etc.
I just disagree with you that one or another of these pursiuts is better served by one or another or the third of these terms (or that the terms are used in any consistant fashion to refer to any of these).
Secondly our disagreement on terms is irrelevant as your detail comments I refer to were often precisely to people speaking in the SCA context.
These are SCA items of armour, made with the various silly SCA combat rules in consideration, and the notorious lack of ... coughing up a reasonable ammount of dosh for an item. They want Rolls Royces...
See, now it looks like for some reason you've just decided to write long winded comments without reading what you're theoretically replying to.
I have stated several times and specifically that I had no objections to anything Adam did with respect to SCA rules modifications or financial considerations.
The detail change I proposed would leave the article exactly the same effort and financial wise (and possibly simpler).
My sole proposal is that in one place the hinge be put on the left instead of the right (or vice versa).
They also don't give a flying fig as a general rule to authenticity ... Your drive for authenticity in the SCA is futile and foolish. ...It just ain't a foundation block of your game.
This is an irrelevancy as well.
If a client says -- I want X,Y,Z he'll get X,Y,Z ...this is an issue of representation.
An armour-ignorant person coming to the "Noble Collection" thinks he's buying a suit of "English knight's armour".
Most folks on this board get really upset at the horrible mischaracterisation that this is.
An Eastern-armour-ignorant person looking for Bazubands (a term in English refering to Persian Vambraces) will think he is buying the same from WMA (yes, he will expect simplifications for financial reasons, he will expect modifications for SCA rules, but should he be expected to realise that there are stylistic differences that have nothing to do with anything at all).
If our standards make us offended at the differences we think are present between an "English armour" and a Indo/Paki version of the same, then how is the current situation different?
Since the SCA is basically a Medivally themed social club, with no minimum standard of authenticity, why are you giving one of the better SCA armourers in operation such a hard time?
All I suggested is that next time he puts one of those together, he makes the connection in a different spot.
It is perceived as a "hard time" because I have had to spend so long trying to defend the idea that an item of Eastern Armour should get an amount of attention at least somewhere close to a similar item of Western Armour.
'Bazibund' is akin to 'vambrace'.
Well, no.
In Iran, Bazuband would probably just be the word for arm defense.
If you are speaking English, you make a certain assertion by your choice to use the Persian term instead of the common English one. You are asserting that you are refering to specifically a Persian Arm Defense.
All sorts of crap has been called such
Yes, and I've seen an armoury call a Spun-top a Spangenhelm.
And if someone talked about any of these on this Board, the mistake would be pointed out quite forcefully.
Anybody can get a period piece out of Adam any time they want.
But if they come looking for a Bazuband, they'll get the item in question.
I presume (and maybe I'm wrong here) that he will not go into what the changes were to it.
...and one more time --
I'm NOT talking about SCA-safety issues.
I AM talking about a stylistic change that has nothing to do with SCA or financial issues or time considerations.
Hows about showing us some of the many bazibunds you have made, and do a side by side comparison of your work and the real thing?
I have already stated that I think WMA's technique is far superior to mine.
I believe I may have stated that towards the very begining of this discussion.
I have showed an example of my work --
There is a photo of one I already have a link to above (again, makes me think you are not reading what I have to say).
...I have also mentioned the SCA modification I made to it.
For a photo showing a decent sample of originals you can look at Stone's "Glossary".
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
-
Mad Matt
- Archive Member
- Posts: 7697
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Ontario Canada
- Contact:
Ok sorry I don't know how to use the quote feature and I didn't copy the post before I started to reply so I'll paraphrase.
White mountian's first response was basically. "There's no historical example. These are just made to meet SCA regs."
Ie. He's quite open and up front on wether things are historically accurate or not.
Now Norman you're absolutly correct. They're not historically accurate. There are a lot of inaccuracies in the stuff I make but I practically have to beg to get people to point them out just in case I missed any.
You're also not out of line in stating that they're not historically accurate. Education is important especially when eastern stuff is concerned since most people know very little about it.
The thing is they're his conception of a piece of armour meant to loosely REPRESENT basubands and still be safe for SCA combat.
BTW Norman I personally really like your basubands I think you did an excelent job.
How many times have you heard someone get all bent out of shape because someone hinged the vambraces on a set of arms on the wrong side and then called them an italian arm harness. (ok ok italy didn't exist this is just an example though).
Now just to clarify here a little. Norman people have also become bent out of shape because of your comments. You just tend to be a little too sensitive about eastern inaccuracies. It seems like when you see this happen you take it as a personal affront.
Now I've got a question for you. Historically was a persian hauberk (using the persian weave of course) done with a 90 or 45 degree sleeve because I can't for the life of me figure out how to do a 45 degree seam in the persian weave. 
For those who don't understand the above question it was a joke. The persian weave of maille is exactly the same weave as what every other region other then japan sometimes used. What's commonly known as european 4 in 1. See Norman people do listen to you. I didn't know that before you informed the archive. You are doing a wonderfull job educating people about eastern stuff. I assume that some of the wild inaccurate beliefs are similar to the "knights had to be lifted onto their horse with a crane" myth to you. So I do understand where you're comming from.
I don't mean to offend anyone who's posted on this thread. I basically am just trying to point out that everyone arguing is over-reacting.
And to WMA. Very nice work.
------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory
[This message has been edited by Mad Matt (edited 08-08-2001).]
White mountian's first response was basically. "There's no historical example. These are just made to meet SCA regs."
Ie. He's quite open and up front on wether things are historically accurate or not.
Now Norman you're absolutly correct. They're not historically accurate. There are a lot of inaccuracies in the stuff I make but I practically have to beg to get people to point them out just in case I missed any.
You're also not out of line in stating that they're not historically accurate. Education is important especially when eastern stuff is concerned since most people know very little about it.
The thing is they're his conception of a piece of armour meant to loosely REPRESENT basubands and still be safe for SCA combat.
BTW Norman I personally really like your basubands I think you did an excelent job.
How many times have you heard someone get all bent out of shape because someone hinged the vambraces on a set of arms on the wrong side and then called them an italian arm harness. (ok ok italy didn't exist this is just an example though).
Now just to clarify here a little. Norman people have also become bent out of shape because of your comments. You just tend to be a little too sensitive about eastern inaccuracies. It seems like when you see this happen you take it as a personal affront.
Now I've got a question for you. Historically was a persian hauberk (using the persian weave of course) done with a 90 or 45 degree sleeve because I can't for the life of me figure out how to do a 45 degree seam in the persian weave.
For those who don't understand the above question it was a joke. The persian weave of maille is exactly the same weave as what every other region other then japan sometimes used. What's commonly known as european 4 in 1. See Norman people do listen to you. I didn't know that before you informed the archive. You are doing a wonderfull job educating people about eastern stuff. I assume that some of the wild inaccurate beliefs are similar to the "knights had to be lifted onto their horse with a crane" myth to you. So I do understand where you're comming from.
I don't mean to offend anyone who's posted on this thread. I basically am just trying to point out that everyone arguing is over-reacting.
And to WMA. Very nice work.
------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory
[This message has been edited by Mad Matt (edited 08-08-2001).]
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white mountain armoury
- Archive Member
- Posts: 10538
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: the Taiga