Here are a pics of the Gjermundbu helmet I built for Cam.
http://nadara.xenabat.com/temp/gjermundbu/mellon01.jpg
(donno how to insert them anymore)
As you can see its a little small so I am building another one for him.
I used information from the Oslo museum to base the helmet on (thanks Eggy!).
I am not convinced that there is anyway that the oculars on the original were straight up and down though.
Even the museum suggests that their reconstruction isn't correct due to various issues.
For those of you that don't know much about the 'sandwich' method NONE of the rivets above the smaller brow band actually enter the fill plates, the fill plates are sandwiched between an inner and outer band that are riveted together. (Note: I am betting that on the actual helmet even the brow band rivets didn't enter the fill plates, I am betting that again the bottom edge of the fill plate was sandwiched between and smaller brow band and wider brow band . So my theory is that the only piece riveted directly to anything was the oculars.)
At first I thought there was no way this could have worked, then we took out the cleckos and added the first rivets and the helm automatically stiffened up tremendously, infact it was as strong as any other spangen I have ever handled.
This was a great experience, but I cant take all the credit, a local master armourer (Master Tristram) helped on the project, he had never made one of these either, and he (like I) was quite skeptical in the beginning but in the end he was as surprised and happy as I was with the project.
More pics to come this weekend.
Yes I did screw up on two of the ocular decorations, I accidentally double taped one and the other is crooked as hell;)
We tried to stay as true to the accurate as we could (in regards to construction methods) but one area did step outside the bounds of periodness. The spike in the top had to be spot welded in place as we couldn't heat the shank of it up hot enough to peen it inside the helm. It always cooled (from red hot) while we inserted it into the top piece then added the second sandwich plate and then started to peen it with a ball stake.
We tried using a torch to heat it inside the helm but I, like a fool, had already installed the leather liner. In heating up the shank inside of the helmet we ran the risk of burning the liner, so after several attempts of just peening the shank while cold, we only wound up bending the spike and driving it so far into the led block we were using that it took considerable effort to pry the spike out of the lead;).
It was a learning process so I will remember all of this on the next version.
As I said before I see no way that it was possible for the ocular to really be straight up and down on the original. On the next version I will make it so that it slopes out a bit. We have had to do that on all the (SCA) Valsgarde/Vendel helmets we have built in the past so it not a huge undertaking.
Oh yeah, I used 18 ga on all the parts except the occulars (12 gauge to hold the decorations) and the outer bands are 1/4 inch by 1/2 flat stock sanded to shape. I think the originals were probably dished sheet steel but couldnt be sure.
Halvgrimr
(ps this helmet will be for sale at the Waco event. If anyone there is interested see Camric about it)
first attempt at 'sandwiched' spangens
first attempt at 'sandwiched' spangens
Last edited by Halvgrimr on Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Halvgrimr, there is a simple size adjustment for these helms, that I learned in Steelholme. It is rather like the method you used to craft it, and it works pretty well.
Place helm on the wearer's head, whack with the largest mallet you can find until it fits. See? Easy!
Ears? We don't need no stinking ears...
Place helm on the wearer's head, whack with the largest mallet you can find until it fits. See? Easy!
Ears? We don't need no stinking ears...
My 10yo daughter says I'm pretty!
Squire to Jarl Asgeirr Gunnarson, Barony of Vatavia, Calontir
Squire to Jarl Asgeirr Gunnarson, Barony of Vatavia, Calontir
yeah i am not real sure how it turned to small.
the measurement Cam sent me for the browband measurement was 23 1/4.
I cut the band to be 25 1/4, then made the plates fit it, not the other way around.
I was sure that this would allow for a liner and an arming cap.
H
Alcy's idea has merit but I am betting I cant convince Cam it is a valid method;)
the measurement Cam sent me for the browband measurement was 23 1/4.
I cut the band to be 25 1/4, then made the plates fit it, not the other way around.
I was sure that this would allow for a liner and an arming cap.
H
Alcy's idea has merit but I am betting I cant convince Cam it is a valid method;)
Does this help?
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/halberds/size.jpg
The leather suspension takes up more room than expected.
It does not always lay tight next to the metal.
I like to add 1/2" for this. If the helm is a little loose it can be shimmed up from the inside with small strips of leather behind the suspension.
I would of cut the head band to 28.66" if he wears a coif or arming cap that has to be allowed also.
Some good numbers to have are the front to back and the side to side.
This will let you shape the oval and double check the circumference.
This is a quick home made tool the client can make to get these numbers:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... ipers1.jpg
Best of luck
Hal
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/halberds/size.jpg
The leather suspension takes up more room than expected.
It does not always lay tight next to the metal.
I like to add 1/2" for this. If the helm is a little loose it can be shimmed up from the inside with small strips of leather behind the suspension.
I would of cut the head band to 28.66" if he wears a coif or arming cap that has to be allowed also.
Some good numbers to have are the front to back and the side to side.
This will let you shape the oval and double check the circumference.
This is a quick home made tool the client can make to get these numbers:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... ipers1.jpg
Best of luck
Hal
Happy Metal Pounding
-
mattmaus
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- Location: Colorado Springs,CO
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Sweet cardboard calipers Hal! That's way cool!
And you're right. The brow measuremnet you need to make a helmet absolutely. But having the front to back measurements makes it LOTS easier.
Simple geometry tells us that when figurng a head size if we want to have 1/2 inch all around (that's 1/2 inch of radius) we need to add 3.14 inches to the brow measurement. or 6.28 for a full inch or padding space.
Simple geometry like that doesn't really work tho. First, heads are CLOSER to ovals than circles, but realy neither, (more almond or egg shaped most of the time) and there isn't a good formula.
Where I actualy susspect your sizing went bad comes from someplace else all together.
If I take a bar of 2 inch square stock, and I form it into a circle of any size The INSIDE circumfrence is going to be more than 12.5 inches shorter than the OUTSIDE circumfrence. So... say I want my inside diameter to be 3 inches. r is 1.5 inches, pi * 2r =~ 9.42 my ouside diameter on this same circle will be 7 inches. r = 3.5, pi * 2r =~ 21.98. So where do I cut my bar at???
While you're obviously not going to make a hat out of 2" thick material, it prety handily illustrates the point. If you want to really get into it ther is somewhere on Anvilfire (www.anvilfire.com) a formula (and maybe a calculator) for figuring out where to cut your stock.
If I understand you correctlyyou used 1/4 inch stock for your brow band. and cut it 2 inches longer than the brow measurement (pleas correct if I misunderstand you).
By cutting your bar this long your OUTSIDE cisrumfrence would have been the 25.25 (that's a 8.04 outside diameter)inches that you cut it to, and your INSIDE measurement would then be (+-) 23.675 (with a 7.54 diameter)
Your 18 gauge spangen pannels, and I'm not sure but 18 gauge sandwich bands plates reduce your diameter further by.2 inches giving your inside circumfrence (+-) 23.04.
If your leather liner is 1/8th of an inch that pulls your inside circumfrence down to 22.26 inches with a diameter of 7.09).
Halberds says "I would of cut the head band to 28.66" "
checking that out... with the same reductions listed in my example would give you an inside measurement of 25.667 (that's with the leather susspension) with a diameter of 8.18. Your clients head measures 23.25 inches, giving it a diameter of 7.40. The differnece betwixt them is .78 inches, HALF of that is .39 inches. The .39 inches (or 2/5ths of an inch) is what he would have for coif/arming cap etc. thickness. I would say pretty dern good.
By that information, Halberds is pretty clearly capable of astounding mathematical feats, AND creating a pretty tight tolerance on helmet sizing.
OW! My head hurts now. Someone smarter than me please check my math and confirm that I'm not talkin out my arse again.
And you're right. The brow measuremnet you need to make a helmet absolutely. But having the front to back measurements makes it LOTS easier.
Simple geometry tells us that when figurng a head size if we want to have 1/2 inch all around (that's 1/2 inch of radius) we need to add 3.14 inches to the brow measurement. or 6.28 for a full inch or padding space.
Simple geometry like that doesn't really work tho. First, heads are CLOSER to ovals than circles, but realy neither, (more almond or egg shaped most of the time) and there isn't a good formula.
Where I actualy susspect your sizing went bad comes from someplace else all together.
If I take a bar of 2 inch square stock, and I form it into a circle of any size The INSIDE circumfrence is going to be more than 12.5 inches shorter than the OUTSIDE circumfrence. So... say I want my inside diameter to be 3 inches. r is 1.5 inches, pi * 2r =~ 9.42 my ouside diameter on this same circle will be 7 inches. r = 3.5, pi * 2r =~ 21.98. So where do I cut my bar at???
While you're obviously not going to make a hat out of 2" thick material, it prety handily illustrates the point. If you want to really get into it ther is somewhere on Anvilfire (www.anvilfire.com) a formula (and maybe a calculator) for figuring out where to cut your stock.
If I understand you correctlyyou used 1/4 inch stock for your brow band. and cut it 2 inches longer than the brow measurement (pleas correct if I misunderstand you).
By cutting your bar this long your OUTSIDE cisrumfrence would have been the 25.25 (that's a 8.04 outside diameter)inches that you cut it to, and your INSIDE measurement would then be (+-) 23.675 (with a 7.54 diameter)
Your 18 gauge spangen pannels, and I'm not sure but 18 gauge sandwich bands plates reduce your diameter further by.2 inches giving your inside circumfrence (+-) 23.04.
If your leather liner is 1/8th of an inch that pulls your inside circumfrence down to 22.26 inches with a diameter of 7.09).
Halberds says "I would of cut the head band to 28.66" "
checking that out... with the same reductions listed in my example would give you an inside measurement of 25.667 (that's with the leather susspension) with a diameter of 8.18. Your clients head measures 23.25 inches, giving it a diameter of 7.40. The differnece betwixt them is .78 inches, HALF of that is .39 inches. The .39 inches (or 2/5ths of an inch) is what he would have for coif/arming cap etc. thickness. I would say pretty dern good.
By that information, Halberds is pretty clearly capable of astounding mathematical feats, AND creating a pretty tight tolerance on helmet sizing.
OW! My head hurts now. Someone smarter than me please check my math and confirm that I'm not talkin out my arse again.
It looked better in my head....
Damnit.
Damnit.
[quote="mattmaus"]
If I understand you correctlyyou used 1/4 inch stock for your brow band. and cut it 2 inches longer than the brow measurement (pleas correct if I misunderstand you).
--no all of the helmet except the oculars and the top straps were made of 18 ga
as stated the oculars were 12 ga
it was the top straps that were made from flat stock, ie the top part of the sandwich's
the inner straps (bottom part of the sandwiches) were made of 18 ga
sorry folks the technical terms for these parts still needs to be established;)
i know where i messed up now.
i cut the browband compensating for the liner but none of the other stuff that would 'take up space on the inside of the band.
Ie I didnt compensate for fill plate, inside strap, any wierdness in either of them and an arming cap.
If I understand you correctlyyou used 1/4 inch stock for your brow band. and cut it 2 inches longer than the brow measurement (pleas correct if I misunderstand you).
--no all of the helmet except the oculars and the top straps were made of 18 ga
as stated the oculars were 12 ga
it was the top straps that were made from flat stock, ie the top part of the sandwich's
the inner straps (bottom part of the sandwiches) were made of 18 ga
sorry folks the technical terms for these parts still needs to be established;)
i know where i messed up now.
i cut the browband compensating for the liner but none of the other stuff that would 'take up space on the inside of the band.
Ie I didnt compensate for fill plate, inside strap, any wierdness in either of them and an arming cap.