Light helmet for unarmoured longsword?

greenman_neil · Post by **greenman_neil** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:37 am

Hi Folks,
Getting curious about this:

Has anyone experimented with making a light helm for unarmoured longsword? My thoughts are along the lines of an open faced sallet or barbute, with a fencing mask kind of covering for the face, and a couple of lighter steel bars reinforcing the mask.

I know Triplette sells bare fencing masks, but I do not know if this idea is workable. Thoughts?

The goal is an open faced (as best as possible), lightweight helmet. I don't love using a normal fencing mask with rebated longsword, and I also do not love the idea of a close faced helmet.

Thanks,
Neil

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:13 am

This is a similar arrangement used by some rapier fighters. So it is workable.

greenman_neil · Post by **greenman_neil** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:06 pm

Does anyone know armourers that do this sort of work? Is there a ballpark estimate for how much it would cost?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:19 pm

I'd seriously advise going with leather. You can easily make something that will protect you from cuts, assuming your partners have ever seen the notion of control, and you can sew in whatever you need for the face. That basic pattern would be just stupidly simple, and then add face protection as required.

greenman_neil · Post by **greenman_neil** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:25 pm

I had initially thought about a leather spangen with neck lames, with a fencing cage affixed.

My only issue there is how well a hard leather helmet will protect against impacts. The main reason I am pondering a legit metal helm is to provide some safety against blunt trauma to the head and neck.

Just for kicks, someone did fashion an open helm with a perforated steel visor... http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=9b3a955e839126a0279cb9621ddb3866&threadid=18719&highlight=klappvisor.

My thoughts however, centre on using a heavy mesh like a fencing mask for the grille.....

Cheers,
Neil

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:45 pm

it wasn't just someone that did it for kicks. it was Brian price for use at his fighting goup.

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:52 pm

greenman_neil wrote:My thoughts however, centre on using a heavy mesh like a fencing mask for the grille....

I *believe* it was Lewis Moore who has made helms with a heavy wire mesh across the occulars for longsword work in AEMMA.

I saved the link to the pics - http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwDjAqAS ... 7442651608

and here- http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwCLApwS ... 7435493329

I would think with a little creative dialogue a workable design could be developed.

John Patrick
edited to include all the information I intended

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:53 pm

This is for playing with unarmored longswords? Unless you're clubbing each other to death with overweight wasters, two or three plies of leather should do fine. Sew in a mail drape across the face, firm enough that there's some resistance, and you should be good to go, unless you're going to be playing with somebody who's so unsafe that they shouldn't be allowed near a sword in the first place...

greenman_neil · Post by **greenman_neil** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:23 pm

RE: "just for kicks":
I did not mean Brian did it just for kicks. I meant to say that "just for kicks, here is something similar".

RE: unarmoured longsword:
Yep, this would be for unarmoured longsword (blossfetchen). Right now I use a normal fencing mask. It is not that I train with people who do it unsafely, it's just that accidents can happen. That said, I feel more comfortable in the long term, with something more protective than a fencing mask.

As for a leather helm specifically: I've no idea how well it could protect from blunt trauma. With a fencing mask, my largest concern is the open back. True, a leather helm fixes this problem, but would the helm itself be more protective than a plain old mask?

Cheers,
Neil

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:37 pm

Three plies of leather with rubber cement in-between is more than adequate protection unless you're using giant clubs or crowbars... and if you wanted, you could simply lace it through your already-existing mask... a more complete version of what they do for kendo. Build on teh same sort of thick leather gorget/coif, and you'd be golden.

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:43 pm

John Patrick wrote:
greenman_neil wrote:My thoughts however, centre on using a heavy mesh like a fencing mask for the grille....

I *believe* it was Lewis Moore who has made helms with a heavy wire mesh across the occulars for longsword work in AEMMA.

We don't use that, maybe it was the Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild? John Woods posts on Armour Archive occassionally, it might have been him. It looks like a Best Armour bascinet that has been refitted. None of our people have that generic visor with big eyeslots. All of ours are custom.

I would think with a little creative dialogue a workable design could be developed.

John Patrick
edited to include all the information I intended

We are still looking for a better solution than the 3 weapon mask. Brian Price's solution, although elegant, relies on everyone having a bascinet with removable visor. Most of our people don't do armour. The bar reinforcement solution is preferrable, as we teach control before anyone gets to the level where free play can happen. The masks serve adequately, but are starting to get bumps and dents. It is blossfecten after all, no one is trying to sunder skulls and sever limbs. :wink:

Cheers!

Kel Rekuta
AEMMA Scholler

JohnWoods · Post by **JohnWoods** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:28 pm

I have modifed a visor before, but not that one. I added smaller slots to the large eye openings of a pigface visor to make it "legal" for AEMMA armoured combat.

I have to agree with Kel. Unamoured combat is really not the place for heavy hard hitting blows. When using proper techniques and applying the right amount of control my group has found the 3 weapons fencing mask to be safe.

However it is true that accidents do happen. If this is a concern too you adding leather re-enforcements and maille to a fencing mask, as well as using a heavy padded coif can really improve your saftey level. If your worried about a blade getting through the mesh, you could also wear a set of racket-ball goggles underneath the mask.

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:00 am

I plan on getting one of those 18 gauge scottish burgonets. They are open faced but the cheek protection wraps around the face pretty good. The top of the eyes is rimmed so that helps with agressive over head cuts.

It is 18 gauge so its not too heavy- combine that with some padding/arming cap and i think it'll work fine. I also wanted to mesh or perfprate the opening for use for fencing too.