The Armour Archive

Hello,

Besides using stainless steel, how do you fight corrosion inside the face of the helm?

TOMAR says to paint it with enamel.
Have any of you used epoxy paint?

I hope soon to be making my first bargrill type helm and I want it to be a good one.

Hal

Hey Hal,

I just use a black matt rust paint. I use REVY rust paint however I dont think you have revy in the US.

I find matt looks much better than gloss paint as it achives a much more historical looking finish. I think the important part is to make sure that you use a rust paint as these have chemicals specifically to deter rust formation (or some such stuff).

Your helmets are so beautiful and historical I'm going to cry to see one with a bargrill , however I'm sure you will make one as good looking as possible

cheers,
Mike

In period, I beileve they used a mixture of linseed oil and ash or coal for a grey or black protective finish inside of helms and other armour pieces.

I could be wrong on this though.

We have rustoleum in the US.

I was curious as how it holds up to stick fighting ie: chipping and flaking on impact.
If a piece flaked off in the clients eye; an unacceptable situation to say the least.

Ogier,

The grill is not very period so straying from a period coating does not necessarily add insult to injury. IMO.

This is a concept sketch, it will be welded 1/4" bar stock.
Please comment with a marshal's eye, to save me rework later down the road.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... tch5.5.jpg

Thank you for your assistances,

Hal

The only thing that I see is the bars at the very bottom. Make shure that they are spaced right. I have a helm with a simular grill and the bars were slightly too far appart when they widend.

Edward

How did they become widened?

Check your PM.

As long as you're a skilled welder, then I forsee no problem. It looks like a good design.

looks like a good design to me. make sure to have clean welds.

are you planning on riveting/welding the grill to the outside or edge of the cheek plates?

If it is the edge you might have some problems with some marshals, unless the welds are nice and substantial.

Other than that, make sure the gaps are no more than 1 inch apart and your are good.

Looks nice, but make sure the bars are constructed so as not to allow a 1inch dowl to pass through them! not just one inch apart.

preeeeeeeeeeeeeeetttttyyyyy
well pretty as far as bar grills go.
you could try to forge blacken the bargrill before welding that should prevent rust if looked after.
It will scratch (when the metal is scratched) but shouldnt flake, and its period.
good luck with the bargrill (although with the artwork thats is youre helms its like a kid scribbling on a van gough, at least this looks like it was done by a talented kid.(just M.H.O.))

Zerker

I have this idea to secure the welds. I do not know if this is the way the armories do it.

The first order of business is for the grill to withstand a Duke Logan attack. So I plan to build the grill in the flat, anneal it and dish it to fit the helm. If the welds do not show any deferments, it will be stressed enough to enter service. After forming it should pick up some work hardening and maintain it's shape under stress.

This is mild steel mind you; if it is made from stainless, that is another ball game.

Hal

Ive used both rustoleum and an epoxy based paint, both seemed fine for the inside with the epoxy seeming to work better on an ouside application.
--kiyohara

Thank you for your input,

I think rustoleum is an enamel, this should allow it to flex slightly after drying. The epoxies dry rather brittle I think.

The main concern is the face metal in contact with the aventail.
A face thrust will abrade the maille against the helm face.
This area will also trap hot saline humidity.

The galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals is an engineers concern.

I was wondering how you guys solved this question.

Thank you

Hal

Modernly there's powder coat.
I also like Hammerite.

Hugo you basterd....

A fine balance between serviceability and cost must be maintained.

The cost of the powder coating vs. stainless steel may be close.
This still does not address the abrasion of maille to steel.

There are a lot of exotic aerospace and automotive coatings too.

I am thinking about good ol' fashion maintenance, Scrubby and oil after hard use.
Do not store wet and sweaty. Remove arming cap and throw it in the washer. Stuff like that to hold the cost down.

Hell... I never made one of these before..... Cut me some slack.

Hal

On the horizontal bars over the eye opening, curving them to match the curve of the helmet will make them more likely to catch hard downwards strikes and bend. Straight bars from each edge of the eye opening to the nasal will actually hold up better. My current helm uses curved stainless 1/4" bars and I have to adjust the top bar from time to time to keep the gap legal. This is a trade-off of functionality vs aesthetics. Some people will prefer the look of the curved bars and not mind the extra maintenance.

I would expect that the chain coif will scour any surface treatment (or rust) off of the grill in the areas it covers. Rustoleum on the inside of the grill and keeping the mail oiled seems like your best bet.

How much is pwder coating over there, if cost is a concern you are being overcharged. it runs about £12 sqm.

Looks good, Halberds, I think nothing can replace care taken by the end user, every plating, paint, powdercoating is suspect to scratch and chip under the abuse. At least bare metal can be touched up with some scotchbrite and oiled. I don't know if any advantage will be gained to welding in the flat and then forming. I am doing something similar for a helm kit I am developing far an SCA valsgarde 6, but I am cutting it out in it's entirety in one piece of 7ga SS, to be formed and then riveted on the perimeter. But that is to eliminate welding in the kit. I have no doubt what you come up with will be excellent, I still remember the skull face you formed, very nice. You are up to five apprentices now? Isn't that technically a sweatshop? Kathy Lee would be proud!
Cheers, Erick Davidson
BTW I recieved the makers mark I ordered from Argon tools, works sweet, thanks for the information.

well if most of the grill is going to be hidden, could you use tool dip?

Just brain storming here

The powder coating would involve driving 60 miles to the big city.
At my shop rate that would be prohibitive.

I call my apprentices numbers, #2 moved to the big city #3 moved off to go to college. They only receive instructions, materials and supplies from me.

What they build is theirs. They rarely work on my projects. I try to provide guidance.

So maybe I don't qualify as a Cathy Lee, I hope.

I'm sorry, Halberds, if that came off as a jab, I have the utmost respect for you and spreading your knowledge. Bad joke, it is a comment we joke about out here when there is a shop full of people on armour night. I meant you could put quite a production line together. Best of luck in your endeavours.
Cheers, Erick Davidson

It's Ok, her tits are bigger than mine anyway....

I think I will make an experimental grill to learn how. Then I can whack on it and see what happens. Nothing like the real thing I always say.

Thanks for all your help guys.

Hal

Zweihammer wrote:Looks good, Halberds, I think nothing can replace care taken by the end user, every plating, paint, powdercoating is suspect to scratch and chip under the abuse. At least bare metal can be touched up with some scotchbrite and oiled. I don't know if any advantage will be gained to welding in the flat and then forming. I am doing something similar for a helm kit I am developing far an SCA valsgarde 6, but I am cutting it out in it's entirety in one piece of 7ga SS, to be formed and then riveted on the perimeter. But that is to eliminate welding in the kit. I have no doubt what you come up with will be excellent, I still remember the skull face you formed, very nice. You are up to five apprentices now? Isn't that technically a sweatshop? Kathy Lee would be proud!
Cheers, Erick Davidson
BTW I recieved the makers mark I ordered from Argon tools, works sweet, thanks for the information.

Interesting, im doing something similar, but from 12 ga, i look forward to seeing yours.
You have some sort of plasma "plotter" dont you. Would you be interested in doing a small run of an interesting plate?

Hal, i just shoot the inside of all my stuff with semigloss from a spray bomb. GM Black the paint they use for fire walls and core supports and innder fenders ect is super cheap, and does not need to be reduced in order to run it through a spray gun. It can be had in any GM parts dept, its oily nasty looking stuff but works well.

I heated the cage, and oiled it when I made my helm. It produces a rust resistant finish that helps visually blend the cage into the coif on my harness
apologies that these pictures aren't any better
http://hometown.aol.com/ksca89/myhomepage/photo.html

This is an old 14ga. spangen kit that didn't sell. I put it together and using it to practice the bar grill. The back is slats.


WMA PM me and I will get you in touch with the CNC plasma cutting guy.
He can make a pattern from a one to one hand drawn sketch.

I asked him about welding my bargrill and he said...Hey why don't you just cut it out of 1/8" to 3/16" plate. Hummmm that reminded me of what you asked.

Hal

Tim
(Hal understands)

After 2nd. bargrill attempt.
Rough prototype progress pic:

Well this is it so far. I have learned a little of what I need to know.

Your comments are always welcome, as they help me progress.
I see a few areas on this that need improving too.

Thanks,

Hal

Hey I kind of like that.Strap work instead of bars looks realy good on that helm.

ROC

Thanks ROC,

I thought the straps would be stronger.
In order to rivet the bars; they were flattened out on the ends to accept the 3/16" rivet. The metal became thin and I was worried about a weak spot where the rivet passed thru the end of the bar.

I am thinking of riveting the straps then welding them to the inside face, and where they cross themselves.

I don't think I will finish this prototype unless some one has a 6-7/8" hat size; although the face could be adapted to another helm.

Hal

(Edited to add)

Ps: I am a little worried about that strap over the eyes.
How do you guys beef it up. I am thinking of going with a heavier material and making the eye holes smaller.

mordreth wrote:I heated the cage, and oiled it when I made my helm. It produces a rust resistant finish that helps visually blend the cage into the coif on my harness
apologies that these pictures aren't any better
http://hometown.aol.com/ksca89/myhomepage/photo.html

The pics are fine Sir.
The heat and oil treatment, I am familiar with. That is a good idea; although an aventail will be over the front.

An Archive member asked me to design and quote this helm.
Having never made a bargrill helm before, I see yours has a full face cage.
Good air supply. Yes?

I saw a close up pic of Owen's helm; and he had padding on the cheek plates.
Is this standard?

I suppose I will have to install a chin strap too, or is that fitted by the client?

Thanks for the pics.
Normans rule.....

Hal

Padding and chin straps are usually done by the buyer. What I ment when I said that the bars opened up was they were one inch appart when the bars were strait but when they were curved it opened them up enough to fail the helmet.

Edward