The Armour Archive

NSTIW... an unexpected surgery on my jaw last year; I wake up and look over at the stuff they're going to cut me open with and I see '410'.

This past June I spoke with Ben Scheiner, a local armourer here in Cincinnati, about what 410 steel is. Ben is a professional machinist that runs Dragon Forge on the side. I had ordered a full stainless steel harness from him (he's a friend of mine and an all-around cool dude) and we got to talking in-depth about the costs in running an armoury.

Ben tells me, "You know all those samurai swords you see on eBay? They say '440' on them? That's hardened steel, and 410 is like that. Basically, it's like spring steel, but stainless".

To say the lightbulb went off is an understatement.

I've been kicking around the idea of getting into the armour-supply business. I have the financial ability to have dies ground and stamp pieces for mass production.

First I needed to test the process however; I would never enter a business without the fundamental knowledge of the product, so I immediately called a place called Bodycote and basically got the executive summary on how heat-treating 410 works.

After one conversation with a metallurgist I filed with the United States Patent and Trademark Office for a trademark on "spring stainless", found a company to create my dies, and did a small business forecast using SAP software to figure out what my cash outlay vs. income would be in 2005 (more on this later).

To start my experiment I called Admiral Steel, ordered a few sheets of 410 and 420, commissioned the labor to turn said steel into a pair of elbows by another professional armourer named John Gruber, and finally had it heat treated.

Worked the first time.

The elbow polishes up just like stainless, it is completely rust free, and in my non-scientific "tie it to a post and hit it as hard as you can with a 5' rattan pole" test it passed with flying colors. The force actually caused the edges of the elbow to dig into the pine post. No dents.

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=970

The above link is a site that talks about the characteristics of the steel. I don't know what any of this stuff means, perhaps one of the pros out here can offer further insight.

After discussing this with John I've opted to post here on the AA and openly share with you all everything I've learned on this process and dispel any rumours on what my personal plans are. I want everyone to succeed, truly, so I am putting my research where my mouth is.

First, my disclaimer: I am not an armourer, metallurgist, fabricator, etc. My tool chest consists of a Black and Decker electric screwdriver and one of those $10 socket sets from True Value.

I am, however, a businessman, and I believe that 400-series steel is the future of armouring for SCA/WMA.

Why? Because 410 steel in thin gauges is a.) relatively easy to work with (I have two armourers that agree on this) and b.) requires no water or oil quenching.

I repeat: since it air cools so you have a good chance of success the very first time. Just put it on a piece of concrete (e.g., the garage floor) and let it cool.

When I asked the good people at Bodycote about heat treating steels they talked with me about distortion. This was something that I did not understand until their description of it, but now I get it:

The reason armourers charge more for 1050 is that there is a real possibility of the piece distorting in shape when they quench it in transmission oil, water, or whatever.

They can lose the piece entirely and have to start over from scratch. That eats up time, and time is money to all of us.

410 allows armourers to make a superior product (it's stainless) with low-to-no chance of distortion (air quench).

Here is my experiment in full:

1.) Get steel - I called Admiral Steel, spoke to a representative named "Cleo", and bought a few sheets that I think were 24" x 48" (I never saw them as I had them shipped directly to armourers). The elbows are made out of 18 gauge. I think each sheet cost me $30 USD which can yield a lot of elbows.

2.) Get armourer - I hope you guys can handle this one on your own.

3.) Heat treat finished piece - I used Bodycote but my armourers told me that this was completely possible to DIY with a kiln that has a digital thermometer.

I'm not supposed to say what it costs to use Bodycote but it was less than the price of the steel. This makes the kiln option a smart investment based on a projection of over 100 pieces per year.

4.) Polish - same as regular steel (cotton wheels, white rouge, etc.).

That's it. No magic, just process, and it worked the first time.

I was also told:

410 can be welded, as long as you use the matching 410 welding stuff (forgive me, I am not a welder / fabricator, just a mere suit).

410 is not magic, but to maintain dent resistance the "two gauges lighter than regular stainless" is a good rule of thumb. This 18 gauge elbow is probably overkill. The next harness I commission will have 22 gauge elbows in 410.

I'm sharing the results of my experiment with everyone because I hope to have the ability to buy 400-series stainless steel armour from you soon.

On the rumours of me getting into the business:

I have not yet decided to enter the business of manufacturing and selling armour for SCA/WMA as my trip to Bangalore morphed into another trip to Germany.

If I manufacture in India I have to see the actual factory to know that it is in accordance with US-based standards for worker well-being. I must have a photograph of myself standing in said factory with the people who make this stuff as proof of my due diligence.

Regardless of my own personal interests I think this information can help you guys build more profit margin into your businesses.

The market is accustomed to paying more for 1050; why not a premium over that for 410 which is stronger and stainless at the same time?

Or better yet undercut the 1050 prices because you have a much lower possibility of wastage during the quench?

400-series stainless steel is the best material I can find anywhere to make armour out of; it's rust-free, relatively inexpensive, and looks right.

My next experiment is currently underway now; laser-cut and hardened 420 scale armour. I promise to share the results as soon as I am able.

Happy holidays armourers; I hope you use this information to redefine our cottage industry.

Leo

I'm sure there is downside to this somewhere. Nothing is this too good to be true.

That's an amazingly low price for 410 sheet. You might want to double check their current pricing.

I must admit, I'm very suspicious. Not of your motives, heavens no! But rather, of your methods and of the information you've been given.

I'm all in favor of India-based armour production that turns out quality pieces, and that in itself I think is an eminently worthwhile endevor. If you can mannage to pull it off and import cheap, good quality sca armour, believe me I'll buy it!
It's these miraculous claims for a normal 400 series stainless steel that I'm leery of.

There's quite a few very experienced armorers (and metalurgists, on good days!) around here, I'd highly encourage you to get their input before leaping off into the dark. There's a lot of people who have been looking for a good spring stainless for a long time... I just find it hard to believe that it could have been so obvious and easily avalable all this time.

Also, as a very inactive member from your barony, I think it only fair to warn you that a lot of people around here have an aversion to stainless on principal.

personally I think 410 stainless IS the next step in sca armor.

people who for years have hated the use of stainless are slowly coming around ( attend a few pensics, gulf wars, etc back to back along with some really rainy months and you'll change heart too)

I used to totally hate the idea of stianless because its luster was so much brighter than regular carbon or mild steel it looked to me like psylon armor.

now im of the mind that the less work I do polishing and the more I do teaching and fighting the better.

thanks Karl.

Isn't part of the armourer's standard objection to stainless that it is harder on tools? Specifically, hammers? Read that somewhere, and wondered about it.

if this is true... a nd you can make high quality low maintenance armour that has a historical weight... you will see alot of people buy it.

I know I would.

You will also remove EVERY excuse that concerns weight for wearing sports armour.

If this works... I will commission a full 14th century kit

One of the nice things about stainless is that you can work thinner guages to get the same strength-therefore it probably isn't harder on most tools-just perhaps cutting tools and drills/punches/etc.

Still, if the 410 is delivered annealed (which I would assume it would be) then it may be pretty wonderful to work with.

Looking forward to working with it. Thanks for the info, Leo!

Thanks everyone, and for the emails as well. I'll reply to everyone here in the open.

I guess I should have clarified Cet; sorry about that. I bought eight sheets so perhaps there is a discount. For anyone interested I'd suggest calling Admiral Steel at (800) 323-7055 and asking them directly what a sheet costs. I ordered via a man named Cleo.

For those of you who asked "Who are you" in email, I'm Karl from here on the AA. I just accepted a belt as a Squire in the SCA and decided to start using my SCA name to better my experience within this Society and changed all of my public login names to reflect this.

On the subject of Italy, MedievalDesign.com will not carry 410 armour as it is not historically accurate. The importance to Luciano is to continue to be the world's most accurate yet affordable re-enactment supply organization. I say "mass production" and he cringes as nothing MD carries is made in India on principle.

Gwydion, you're right about it being harder on tools as stainless is harder in general. Both armourers I've worked with mentioned the same thing.

On the subject of the steel I don't understand why there is any question whatsoever on its applicability. There are hundreds of examples of hardened 400 series stainless steel in our everyday lives; my kitchen probably has a dozen examples in it alone.

Just like one can harden 1050 steel, one can similarly harden 400-series steel. Anyone can look at that website and compare the characteristics of the two steels first-hand.

400-series steel, properly hardened, will resist dents moreso than regular stainless steel, period.

Almost every place that sells steel has a metallurgist on the payroll so I would recommend speaking with such a professional before making any uninformed business decisions.

The total test cost me less than $600 but it would take any armourer who can make their own items a lot less to replicate this themselves.

I posted this information to help armourers out here take the next step, nothing more.

I stand absolutely nothing to gain, and in fact, I have essentially thrown away any competitive advantage I would have had by bringing this to market first. Building armour will never be how I make my living (I have a career) so I opted to share this information first.

I am of the opinion that times are tough right now, especially for artists, and the very worst thing I could do is negatively impact someone's livelihood. That must mean if I can better someone's livelihood, it must be a good thing.

Best,
Karl

hello all ,
work as a full time heat treeater here an make armour on the side .. the only real drawback that i am aware of is that the heat treated stainless doesnt tear like normal stainless but will just eventually break due to the hardness .. but it will take some time and quite a bit of abuse .. but if it works why not use it .. and i only work in stainless never had a problem with hammers or even most of my tooling ..

This subject has come up before.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hlight=410

I have a sheet of 18ga. annealed 410 stainless from Admiral Steel that I made some elbows from. The main problem I had was heat treating it on my own. To heat treat 410 SS parts with complex curves you need a vacuum furnace so that there is no oxygen to leach out the carbon. The heat treating process requires a much higher quenching temperature than 1050. Also it must be allow to "soak" at varies temperatures for set periods of time before being quenched. This leads to problems with thin sheet metal parts warping during the heat treating process. I found a local Heat Treating shop that has a vacuum furnace and knows how to heat treat 410 and 420. But they didn't think that they could keep the parts from warping.

The next thing you should be aware of is the 410 Stainless Steel has the least amount of rust resistance required to be considered stainless. I would not say that it is "rust free" or "rust proof". The 304 or 316 normally used for SCA armour has vastly more rust resistance than 410. That being said with some minimal care it should be fine are SCA use.

The next problem that caused me to drop the idea was that with the cost of the material, heat treating, and dealing with warped parts. Most of the people willing to pay that kind of money for armour are looking for high-end reenactment grade armour not stainless SCA armour. I could be wrong but I believe that in the end the number of people willing to pay for the high cost of heat treated 410 SS armour will not justify the cost of setting up the business. Again I could be wrong but that's my opinion.

working 16 guage stainless is rather safe for most tempered tools ( peddinghaus hammers never have issue with 16 guage SS)_

heavier guages are tougher due to the metal being a shit lot tougher to move aka 12 Guage stainless bout gives me a coronary when I know Im gonna have to buck up and dish it. ( ask Ben and Todd about the whine fest they endured)

but 22 guage ANNEALED 410?

Please, you could practically fart it into a dishing stump...

Some of you bigger boys are gonna have to watch where you sneeze....

IMO IF ( thats a big IF) I ever get back into armoring for any length of time 410 SS is definitly the market im going for.

honestly you could set up a room in your HOUSE for dishing and working 22 guage and even 20 guage for arms, 18 for legs, 16 for helms.. and make some damn nice stuff.

( albeit without welding )

Ive been contemplating making a viking line of helms out of 16 guage tempered... ever since I saw the sheet of 410 in bens Shop... ( once the cobblers children have shoes)

IMO 16 guage 410 with a LOAD of brass accenting would work out to a resonable wieght of helm...
I know my lil valsguard helm out of 12 guage and heavily brassed is quite a bit but think how it would be in 16 guage 410 with the same amount of brasswork PLUS a nice face made into it...



here take it one BIG step further.... take some of Ugos repousse work in 18 guage 410....

THAT would be some nice armor that needs minimal maintenance, NEVER rusts, and never looses detail...

Anyone with experimental pieces of this stuff need a crash test dummy?
Because those who know me,
Know that if it can rust at all, I will rust it.
If it can be broken, dented, folded, spindled, or mutilated, I can do it.
Call me blessed by Murphy....

Thorfinn, wondering how long it will take to see this stuff in the market

What would be a reasonable way to DIY temper 410? What are the temperatures, quenches, etc...? Anyone know?

I have been contemplating going to SS or medium-high carbon for some time but I want something I can temper myself.

Julian

hey Julian

since it seems you are somewhat local to me drop me an email or pvt message and i will see what info i can get from work ..

Worse things could happen than for the SCA to get hooked on 410 hardened stainless. It could be the realization of the long-awaited plate armor revolution.

The hardcore guys will stick with their 1050, those who need low maintenance stuff will go with 410--everyone except the zealots will be happy.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Leopold and others, have you considered getting a set of lamellar plates stamped out of 410 or 420 with the Archive stamp at Carolina Stamping Company, then having them hardened/tempered (I believe Carolina can do this), then having them retailed by a reputable armorer? That would seem an ideal use of this material and it could be done by anyone with the capital to invest in it. If, for example, GAA or Mandrake sold these retail at some reasonable price I imagine they would go like hotcakes.

Heh, I 'd buy a set of them TODAY.

Maelgwyn wrote:Leopold and others, have you considered getting a set of lamellar plates stamped out of 410 or 420 with the Archive stamp at Carolina Stamping Company, then having them hardened/tempered (I believe Carolina can do this), then having them retailed by a reputable armorer?

Karl,

If you decide to do this, let me know. I have the information necessary to procure the punch and die for this purpose.

Brian

OK. I’m not a metallurgist but I dug through the attached link to compare with Marks standard handbook for mechanical engineers and the information below is as accurate as I can figure. I had also given thought to using tempered metals previously and have a nice spreadsheet for comparing the different properties of various thicknesses of different metals.

First: I’m surprised that an implanted plate was 410. I work in the implant industry and all of the stainless implants that I know of are 316L. According to our professional metallurgist NOTHING in the 400 series is FDA approved. They are all magnetic stainless and would be VERY problematic if you needed an MRI. I would prefer titanium anyway. We do make some cutting instruments out of 440A but that is a different beast all together. You may have been told the instrument material rather than the implant material.(Stainless grade numbers have less to do with material composition than mild steel numbers. All I am sure of is 300’s aren’t hardenable and SOME 400’s are.)

Second: 410 is an air-cool or oil quench metal. Because of some funky crystal phase transitions it shouldn’t be tempered in the 425-600 range. Tempered at 316C(600F) it is 70% STRONGER in tension than tempered 1040 HIGH CARBON steel. In its annealed state it is 93% as strong as cold rolled 302 Stainless (although it is 74% stronger than annealed 302 stainless.)

Third: (using a width*thickness^3 comparison) the durability of 16ga mild steel can be achieved with 22ga tempered 410. In its annealed state 22ga 410 will move as easily as 19ga mild (but with a greater tendency to wrinkle). It WILL work harden faster and it will probably be necessary to anneal frequently or work the metal hot. NOTE: BECAUSE IT IS AIR COOLED IF YOU WORK IT HOT ONCE IT WILL HARDEN BY SITTING ON THE BENCH. Also most people work hot in the low orange range which is ALMOST EXACTLY the wrong range to temper it to.

Forth: I don’t think there is a way to back-yard heat-treat this material. It is going to require a kiln or outsourcing to a machine shop. Ideally the kiln should be able to pull a vacuum to prevent carbonizing the outer layer (and encouraging rust). Alternately a good seal and a wad of newspaper to burn up and consume all the oxygen is a good plan. Annealing may be possible in a good electric oven. If you don’t have the money for the kiln you might want to try titanium. 16ga mild = 22ga 410SS = 20ga TI6N4V but the 20ga Ti will have the weight of 25ga steel.

I’m not sure the benefits from forming thinner material will offset the cost of a kiln unless you are in a large production environment… If you ARE in a large production environment than you could easily corner the market and control the prices. Also, if you are in a large production environment for tempered stainless harnesses please send me a catalog. ïÂ

Leopold Sankt Laurent wrote:I wake up and look over at the stuff they're going to cut me open with and I see '410'.

I believe he was referring to the cutting instrument, not an implant.

the one thing I dont like about the 1040 and stainless is how it looks over time. Its surface gets scratched over time and just looks bad. Now that doesnt mean I like rust any better but I just find it harder to get out scratches more that rust. I nickle plated my helm a few years ago and I couldnt be happier. I was a worried about chipping but without the crome plating that usualy goes with it I found it to be amazingly durable. Now if I could just get the cost down I think I would do all my pieces.