India visit Q & A

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:01 am

I was on an extended visit to India the last couple of weeks. Mostly at the Deepeeka factory but I visited a few others as well. We were working on improving their heat treatment processes, armor articulation, and developing some new helm patterns. I wanted to throw this thread open to Q & A about India, the current work they are doing, all the general issues.

Some of you know my feeling on this topic already. The Indians are capable of doing excellent work in both swords and armor. Generalizing about India is the same as lumping all US "armorers" into the same category, silly. I know that most of the stuff coming out of there is crap, but that is because the buyers order crap. Quality control and understanding what we (US buyers) are actually looking for seem to be the two biggest issues. And I am working on that.

So what do you want to know?

Example of current work:
http://sussen.com/photos/helm111.jpg

LordWulf · Post by **LordWulf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:07 am

How does someone get stuff produced over in India ???

The reason I ask is because I have patterns of my own design for a whole line of stuff that I know would be snatched up quickly....

What's a helm like that run that you have pictured there ???

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:37 am

There are three basic problems.
1. controlling your patterns and minimizing the unauthorized copies.
2. getting the patterns right
3. not getting ripped off

I personally solve all three by going there, I also maintain an Indian attorney. It is difficult to get any of the capable companies interested unless you are willing to buy a hundred or so per pattern, maybe less if it is a large order in total. If you try to do this via e-mail you are likely to have all three go wrong. It is really more of a business problem and not a design/idea problem, be careful.

The helm I uploaded is a 13ga mild steel fair copy of one in the Nuremburg stadt museum. Interchangeable face, button locks, appropriate hinges. I have not settled on pricing yet, I need to approve the stainless version but the mild steel version will be at Estrella for $450, that may be an into offer depending on how production goes.

LordWulf · Post by **LordWulf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:04 am

Would you mind if I PM'd you ???

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:49 pm

So, how do you prevent them taking your pattern, changing the design slightly, and selling it to another seller?

Because I've seen a set of articulated knees that King's lance sells that look eerily similar to yours, save for a different wing...

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:12 pm

Don't help them.

I use to deal with India via someone in New York. I was traiding armour for swords back in the early 1990s. Then I found them shipping the armour to India to be copied. Of course I stopped, what they where selling where the copies but showing mine in there catalog. I am so glad I didn't have a mark back then. I went through a new pattern change to make sure no one would cofuse me with those bad copies.

I say don't help India for they are like a spung, they will soke up all they can get from you and leave you dry!!

AB Hammer

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:32 pm

The Kingslance ones are copies of mine, a lot of his stuff is, and lighter gage. But I am happy that they changed the wing! Better then "good" copies. The problem is not that "they" change it and sell it to another. There is no monolithic Indian "they". Independent shops steel each others designs. Deepeeka goes to great lengths to protect themselves, but still it happens. I cant get to posessive over the design of a simple five lame knee.

Trevor wrote:So, how do you prevent them taking your pattern, changing the design slightly, and selling it to another seller?

Because I've seen a set of articulated knees that King's lance sells that look eerily similar to yours, save for a different wing...

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:00 pm

I view it more as helping me. I have made a comfortable and growing full time business out of this.

And I want to caution again against over generalizing about "Indian" business practices. There are at least 20 independent shops that I personally have seen. Ranging from one guy and a few helpers to a 300 man factory. The established and larger companies conform to accepted US copywrite and business practices. The small ones, well, it is a very poor country and they are trying to make a living any way they can. Most of what we are talking about, like knees, are pretty historical public domain items, why not help them get it right? What is there for me to copywrite about the helm in my example photo, when I myself copied it from the Nuremburg Museum? If one of you wants to use my helm as a pattern in learning how to make one, be my guest.

Improving the quality and accuracy of Indian products should not be viewed any differently then our (AA) stated goal of improving the accuracy and quality of our own products and hobby. Why is there a difference? Go to the AA welcome page and read the first paragraph again.

ABHAMMER wrote:Don't help them.

I use to deal with India via someone in the New York. I was traiding armour for swords back in the early 1990s. Thin I found them shipping the armour to India to be copied. Of course I stopped, what they where selling where the copies but showing mine in there catalog. I am so glad I didn't have a mark back then. I went through a new pattern change to make sure no one would cofuse me with those bad copies.

I say don't help India for they are like a spung, they will soke up all they can get from you and leave you dry!!

AB Hammer

Randal Scott · Post by **Randal Scott** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:57 pm

ABHAMMER wrote:...I say don't help India for they are like a spung, they will soke up all they can get from you and leave you dry!!

AB Hammer

Well there's irony, eh? Alan, you sent me an email on August 24th saying you were getting back to building my armor, but all my emails since then have gone unanswered. Can you fill me in on the the status now?

Thanks,

Randal Scott

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:38 pm

No Randal
I returned message from your message on 9/9/04 stating around the Christmass time period. unless it got lost which sometimes happens. The 9/9/04 was also the last message I received according to my E-Mail. Now this is cleared up, I will be finishing it as soon as I get back from my family for Christmass, I was hoping before but I had several interuptions. So you will have for the next season as well I will be posting it on the archives.

By the way, have you found out what a V-code also known as a security code for a credit card is yet?

AB Hammer

white mountain armoury · Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:41 pm

Alan, the security code is a set uf numbers printed on the back of a cc card, its usually the 3 numbers in the second set

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:50 pm

LOL I knew what is was, Randal didn't. The V-code is what started our disagreement, and thin got flakie after that so we both got out of hand due to it. So we both agreed to start over and I truely believe that my last email must of got lost or he forgot I sent it.
Oh well he got his update here.

AB Hammer

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:08 pm

So, how do you prevent them taking your pattern, changing the design slightly, and selling it to another seller?

Short answer: You don't.

I'm not nearly as intimate with the details of Indian armour producers as Von Sussen is, but I can tell you I get tons of spam from suppliers selling identical product, or, at least, the pictures of what they are purporting to sell are identical.

I strongly suspect two things are going on: Firstly, I suspect that many exporters sub-contract their armour production to various facilities. Thus there are likely several manufacturers of any given item. Many of these guys, it seems, are trying to strike out on their own and export directly. The other probable scanario is that there is rampant copying going on.

Sending designs to India is really a kind of Pandora's Box. Unless you have the financial ability to fight copyright infringement issues, basically you have to assume that whatever you have manufactured is going to end up being manufactured and sold by others within some amount of time.

Steve

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:16 pm

Here is more light on what Steve said, which I basically agree with. The Indian (caste) system differentiates between "trading/commerce" and manufacturing. Nobody does both. A company that is big enough will have different people handling both parts under one name. The solicitations Steve is getting are mostly from traders who may not have any connection to the manufacturing at all. They have no stock or store. If you order from them, they will then go to one of the manufactures and have it made. That is why all the items seem the same, and why you get poor result if you try to ask for something special.

All of the larger companies make extensive use of sub-contractors and cottage industry work. They go to great lengths to try and protect their new items. For example, parts made in two separate places, assembled in a third, the finish product is packed immediately. The big companies also do a lot to keep their employees loyal. (Deepeeka runs a school open only to children of employees, as there is no public education in India, this is a big perk)

The large companies are pretty good at protecting new designs, but it depends on how popular the item is. Most anything can be had and copied if the price is right.

Kaliban · Post by **Kaliban** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:55 am

OI have yet to see anything out of India that I would trust in combat of any kind ..

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:01 am

Kaliban wrote:OI have yet to see anything out of India that I would trust in combat of any kind ..

Probably because you do not recognize the good stuff as Indian. I have sold more then $100,000 in SCA armor in the last two years, I would fight in any of it. There is a lot of it all around you. In fact some of my harness and most all of my squires's harness is "made in India". The new helms I patterned, see photo, are as good as any "production/munitions" helm made in the USA and better then a lot of them. It is historically accurate, 13ga, welded to Industrial standards, properly articulated and fitted.

Most Indian stuff is junk because US buyers order a $10 helm by eMail, and that is what they get, and a $10 helm is going to be junk, even in India. Rest assured, this helm costs me way more then $10, even in India.

http://sussen.com/photos/helm111.jpg

LordWulf · Post by **LordWulf** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:21 am

When I made my return almost 2 years ago I was looking for armour to get me on the field quick, and this was the helm I liked and bought for $75.00

[img]http://arenal.valhalla-computers.com/modules/coppermine/albums/battell/battell002.jpg[/img]

Mine is the one on the left facing the camera, the other one belonged to my roomie at the time and turned out to be one big nightmare after another, in the end it was traded off.

However, after a couple of modifications to the visor, this helm has served me well and is now being used my friend here. Its not super shiny anymore but it still looks sharp.

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:45 am

LordWulf wrote:When I made my return almost 2 years ago I was looking for armour to get me on the field quick, and this was the helm I liked and bought for $75.00.

These helms have some issues, big enough that I would not want to sell them, but they can be fixed up to be starter helms. It is helms like these that result from a lack of on site expertice.

LordWulf · Post by **LordWulf** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:53 am

It took a good 3 days work with the welder and grinder to get it functional and pass inspection...... but yeah, for a starter helm it worked good, and I still use it on occassion depending on the weather.....

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:02 am

I really want my helms to be wearable of the shelf

LordWulf wrote:It took a good 3 days work with the welder and grinder to get it functional and pass inspection...... but yeah, for a starter helm it worked good, and I still use it on occassion depending on the weather.....

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:57 pm

OI have yet to see anything out of India that I would trust in combat of any kind ..

I used to think this, but no longer. I have been picking up the odd Indian-made helmet or two over the last 3-4 years. To start with, they were all junk. But they got better, and now I have been working with manufacturers directly to have them made to my own specifications to insure that they withstand the rigors of SCA combat. The real trick was not specifying the right materials (14GA stainless steel, using stainless rivets instead of brass, etc.), but rather finding a manufacturer with the ability to get the style right. Once you find a manufactuer with talent it is generally not a big deal to alter the details of construction, provided you are willing to pay for the "upgrades".

Check out our line of plate armour:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/plate.htm

The hounskull, rounded, and conical great helms are definitely up to the rigors of armoured combat, in my opinion.

Steve

Randal Scott · Post by **Randal Scott** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:37 pm

ABHAMMER wrote:No Randal
I returned message from your message on 9/9/04 stating around the Christmass time period. unless it got lost which sometimes happens. The 9/9/04 was also the last message I received according to my E-Mail. Now this is cleared up, I will be finishing it as soon as I get back from my family for Christmass, I was hoping before but I had several interuptions. So you will have for the next season as well I will be posting it on the archives.

By the way, have you found out what a V-code also known as a security code for a credit card is yet?
AB Hammer

Sigh..

Alan, I received an email on 8-24-04 (basically an apology from you and that you were ready to complete your obligation to me) and then another email the following day, 8-25-04 (asking for my measurements) I responded on 8-26-04 with the requested information....and haven't received an email from you since. I emailed you at least three times since 8-26-04 and reading your posts here about both emailing me--and an armor delivery, "...around the Christmass time period," are the first I've heard from you since your email on 8-25-04.

So, it is now December 27th, a few days after X-mas. So when can I expect delivery?

Timelord Gary · Post by **Timelord Gary** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:42 pm

Hello everyone. How do you know which businesses in India are genuine and which arn't? Obviously if you have personally visited some then you would know for those particular ones, but what about the others who advertise? Some could be fake website frontages for unscrupulous individuals,(especially seeing as many of the purported photographs look like thay have come out of someone elses catalogue). Is there some way of remotely checking out these companies? Any useful info would be appreciated... How about S.B.International, has anyone had dealings with this company. regards, Gary..

sussen · Post by **sussen** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:11 pm

check with the chamber of commerce in the Indian town, all the real companies will be listed. Your company is listed as an Indian trader, but I did not check them out locally. http://www.importers.com/trader/30205.html

Personally, I just don't think it is worth working with an foreign company unless you are willing to go there and check it out. A week in India is $2000 including airfair, and if that is a lot of money then you should not be considering import anyway.

Timelord Gary · Post by **Timelord Gary** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:53 am

Thankyou for the information. I will check up as you suggested. regards, Gary..

India visit Q & A

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