The Armour Archive

i would kinda like some quilted armour because i think its cool. but what is it made of, stuffed with, sewn with? and of course does it fit with my fourteenth century arms and armour that i like so much. does any one have any period pictures or prints other than the maciejowski bible?

patric blue tooth

What are you my lord?

what am i? im not quite sure. im kinda flexable as i am not yet a member of the sca and i have no persona. it would be going with a pig faced bascinet, some wisby-ish gauntlets and a grosse messer. i am just starting to put togeather a kit for this period, so i am really really flexible. i think that i have seen an armour with a vertical quilted pattern and i just liked it.

patric blue tooth

uh...if you're running around sporting plate arms and legs, gaunts, and a pig faced melon topper, the only quilted armour you'll be wearing is a gambeson under your mail and breastplate. It wont be your one and only primary defence.

As for what it was made of, perhaps this forum on Arador may interest you:

http://www.arador.com/discforums/index. ... owforum=19

yer right, and i kinda knew that, but i still want quilted armour. maybe what i thaugh i saw was actually a cloth shelled brigandine.... hhhhmmmm. whatever. thanks for the link.

patric blue tooth

(EDITED: Didn't read above post! My bad.)

-Gregory-

greg,
i just said that.

My gambeson is made of upholstery fabric that has a weave pattern on it and cushion stuffing and it looks period and it WORKS witch is the most important thing I advice is pick a persona and most importantly pick a NAME getting people to call be your period name after they have been calling you by your real name for months is hard.
my advice is if you like plate armour go 15th century German of Italian
but if you like the idea of running around with quilted armour and leather arms and such go Norman, Saxon , even roman.
but the choice is up to you ,you are the only one who can make that choice
but think it over before you go rushing it.

Drathir, I don't think he's worrying about an SCA persona...

but if you like the idea of running around with quilted armour and leather arms and such go Norman, Saxon , even roman.

The Saxons and Normans, as far as we know, would not have worn very much, if any, quilted armor. The Romans would never have worn any, except for their Subarmalis under their lorica segmentata.

-Gregory-

I use gamboised cuisses and a gambosen under my CoP. The are both made from a cotton twill (yes I know linnen is prefered) with a cotton batting inside. Since this is for SCA & I wear plates over it I only have 1 layer throughout the gambosine excpet for the elbow which has 6 layers on the outside & 0 on the inside of that joint. My Legs are covered with 3 layers of cotton batting except 2 inched bellow to 2 inched above the knee has 7 layers of batting and 0 behind the knee. This makes for VERY flexiable and light weight armour. It should be worn with mail & will be when I can afford it. Pics can be seen by clinking on my www button.

thanks...i think. i just wanted to make quilted armour because it interested me and i wanted to experiment, so thanks again to those who gave me insites on construction. and i will join the sca as soon as i figure out where they meet around here, madison WI area, and all of the other details. it will be before this renfair season.

patric blue tooth (for now atleast, haha)

Why don't you go with coat armour? The coat armour of Charles VI and the jupon of the Black Prince are both 'quilted' vertically, and would be worn over your fourteenth c. kit, which means it would be seen, instead of being hidden beneath your armour like a gambeson or aketon. I made a quilted jupon for my 14th c. harness, and it looks really impressive; it finishes off the armour nicely.

Patric,

Which kingdom are you in? I don't think any let fighters fight before they're 16, and even 18 in most. Are you tryin' to make this kit SCA legal, or just for SCA reenactment?

-Gregory-

if you want to wear the breastplate and arms under a quilted arming coat it would be called a Lentner and or Jupon. They were used as the outer layer, then came the breastplate, arm defense was worn under the jupon, some times the cops over the jupon, and then you had a gamboise or haucketon (sp) or padded linen shirt, this is what I have been told and have seen derived from effigies. Ask Cet Donnegal, he has some excellent research on this subject as well as a few good examples of lentners and jupons and now he is getting a really nice arming gamboise for under all his armor.

Greetings,

Bear in mind that terminology gets used rather loosely back and forth on such items.

In the 14th c. primarily what you will see is padded gambeson/jupon/jack/etc. that consists of two layers sandwiching a padding material, (I like raw wool) with quilting lines sewn into it.

In the 15th c. another item was used, often called a quilted jack which was armour in it's own right. Consisting of 25+ layers of good quality fabrics, and usually one layer of leather, this provides extremely good protection against cutting edges and moderate protection against stabbing points. It will do only a little however, against the impact trauma.

I use a quilted jack as the foundation garment for my 15th c. harness which I use for steel combat (full force live steel) and it has held up extremely well and been well worth the time and effort to make it. The only detrament it the way it holds in your body heat.

Adrian

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~tpg/ArtsOfWarPart5.htm

There are instructions for early 14th century padded cuisses.

Patric

There are some really cool cottes that where worn over armor around 1400:

[img]http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary-store/Components/546/54624_2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary-store/Components/253/25354_2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://gallica.bnf.fr/image?L=08100037&I=000007[/img]

Here is a nice break down of how those outfits are worn, this cotte is not padded but has the same shape: http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... 0slafr.htm

Here is some pictures of a padded cotte from the era: http://www.mallet-argent.com/chartres.html

What I know about the above cotte is that it is 6 layers of linen wit an outer layer of silk demask. It has a raw cotton and wool blend as it's padding. The body is 4 peices and the arms are one peice.

It's funny -- must be in the air or something. Before seeing this thread, I posted on the Armour Research Society about whether or not late 14thc padded textile garments could be primary defenses as opposed to secondary defenses over armour. I'm fairly in the camp of "secondary defense" as you are James, but someone I spoke with recently felt strongly that they were primary defenses. I have to wonder if he was confusing mid-15thc jacks with the late 14thc jupons though.

Anyway, interesting coincidence.

-Tasha

Hello all,

I was discussing the concepts of "stuffed rows" vs. "quilted batting" with a friend over the weekend.

I had pretty much settled into the camp of "quilted batting", with the clincher for me being that the garment is very weak along the stitch lines, providing virtually no protection there in a "stuffed" garment.

He pointed out an important problem, however: He claims that there was no batting-like material to sandwhich between the linen inner and outer shell. We considered felt, but discounted it. What do you all think?

Are surviving quilted arming garments stuffed or quilted? I have forgotten.

Steve

All quilted after stuffing Steve. The material is just layered in before the garment is fully shut then quilted. I did the same for my SCA arming cotte and it works fine.

A good way to tell visually is look at how fat prequilted SCA gambesons are and then look at the up close shots on Master Cad's site, you can see how less puffy the real deal is.


Tasha

There are writings of the late 14th century that Bob from La Belle told me of once that talk about plate armor cracking do to arrows. I thing they wore the large cotte over the armor to stop arrow damage in this era. Also there are images of men just wearing a padded cotte over maille and sometimes it's just a 2 layer gown. I think they could be used as both primary and secondary defense.

All quilted after stuffing Steve. The material is just layered in before the garment is fully shut then quilted. I did the same for my SCA arming cotte and it works fine.

What material would have been available for use as batting?

Steve

Not that I have the source handy, but I distinctly remember reading about 15th c. jacks that were made of twenty-some layers of linen in the chest area, and used less in the arms. This was quilted together, and the author noted that no man at arms had died wearing such a coat, and it was proof against swords and arrows. To boot, it was comfprtable and was most commonly worn on campaign.

Of course, there are plenty of accounts of stuffing military garments with tow and wool. Indeed, the Black Prince has an extant garment that was stuffed with wool.

Were they worn over mail? Sometimes we see the edge of a mail garment sticking out but mostly not. Were there plate armors worn under neath? Yep-there is an extant garment with a hole for a lance rest. Also, there was a Bohemian garment known as a "Lentner" that was worn with plate arms sticking out of the sleeves.

But, was it a primary defense? For some, sure-it would totally depend on the person wearing it, of course.

For the latter half of the 14th century, take care to make a garment that is "wasp-waisted"-this was the fashion of the day. Take a look at some of the existing manuscripts from the period to get a good idea of what they looked like.

sounds like you are on the right track!

Steve the current servivng cottes seem to all be a mix of raw cotton and raw wool. Often it is writen as cotton or wool wading:

Black Prince - Raw cotton and wool according to Janet Arnold, more cotton than wool.

Charles VI - Raw cotton and wool

3 Jacks from the late 15th early 16th century (2 jacks in the Holstentor Museum in Lübeck and another in the museum in Stendal)- Not just layered but stuffed with cotton and maybe wool. Ivo posted some good details on this on firestyker.


Trevor

FYI you are refering to the Ordinances of Louis XI of France. He calls for 25 to 30 folds of linen with a stag skin for the body and the same layers for the arms minus the stag skin. Here is the whole thing:


From the Ordinances of Louis XI of France (1461-1483)

And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."

I am aware of "jacks" made of many layers of cloth, quilted together. This is an altogether different animal than a gambeson or arming coat made of an inner and outer layer of cloth with padding caught in between.

Not that I have the source handy, but I distinctly remember reading about 15th c. jacks that were made of twenty-some layers of linen in the chest area, and used less in the arms. This was quilted together, and the author noted that no man at arms had died wearing such a coat, and it was proof against swords and arrows. To boot, it was comfprtable and was most commonly worn on campaign.

Of course, there are plenty of accounts of stuffing military garments with tow and wool. Indeed, the Black Prince has an extant garment that was stuffed with wool.

Stuffed quilted rows, or quilted over the stuffing?


Steve

Hello All,

Steve,

It seems that the 14th century aketon/gambeson/cotun could be made a number of ways... multi layers of linen, a heavy outer and inner layer of cloth or leather stuffed with tow fibers, cotton fibers, wool fibers, dried grass.

They quilted though all layers on this type of garment...

To build a shell of quilted tubes and them pull the stuffing through is not a correct way to build a aketon/gambeson/cotun as you end up with weak points at each seam that a sword point would pass right through.

Some of these garments were made as stand alone cloth armour for common soldiers...

Others were made to be worn over mail or plate, under mail or plate... there was a trend of wearing mail under the padded garment that started around 1280 for both commoners and nobles.

During this phase it's my belief that mail was worn over a lightly padded aketon and a 2nd 1/2 sleeve or sleeveless aketon would be worn over the mail by a common foot soldier. This is how I dress when reenacting as a Scottish soldier in 1388. I think its out of the 2 aketon defence system that the 21-30 layer jack of the 1400 evloved from.(and the earler heavy leather shelled cotun of the Scots and Irish)

[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/av-719.jpg[/img]


Hans Memling's Death of St Ursula, late 15th century shows a number of foot solders equipment... note 2 sleevless aketons over mail and a nice jack with breastplate.

[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-19-1106594002.jpg[/img]



[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-19-1106641863.jpg[/img]


Cheers,

Great discussion---I LOVE this stuff! Cloth armour is so oft neglected, yet it can be so interesting, and also impressive.

I also admire that look of the quilted coat over the armour as seen in those illustrations above posted by James B. For an SCA fighter, it allows a variety of "sins" to be concealed (i.e. hidden plastic or other ugly armour). Allowing you to save some weight, money and maintenance for the majority of your harness. Of course, to achieve the "look", you'll need a spiffy helm and full legs---plus cased greaves, which can be costly. However, I guarantee you will turn heads out on the field in such a rig.

Cheers,
Tim

You going to Pennsic this year Tim? I am going to have just such a rig this year. I am reworking the arms for my arming coat then I will start a heavy outer cotte like the Charles the VI example. I also plan on making a well padded cloth aventail for UNDER my maille one. I think the over cloth aventail is cool but I want to show off the spiffy maille and keep my cotte clean. Though I will not be hiding sinful armor.

It seems that the 14th century aketon/gambeson/cotun could be made a number of ways... multi layers of linen, a heavy outer and inner layer of cloth or leather stuffed with tow fibers, cotton fibers, wool fibers, dried grass.

They quilted though all layers on this type of garment...

To build a shell of quilted tubes and them pull the stuffing through is not a correct way to build a aketon/gambeson/cotun as you end up with weak points at each seam that a sword point would pass right through.

I don't think I'm expressing my problem clearly enough.

I am not talking about multi-layered cloth garments, such as the multi-layered "jacks" oft spoken of. I am talking about padded, quilted garments, such as early gambesons all the way through the arming coats of the 14th century and beyond.

My gambeson was made by sewing tubes into a garment, and then rolls of cotton batting were pulled into those tubes.

I agree (or used to agree), that stuffed tubes were not a likely authentic way to go about construction, because, as you said, they leave weak points along the stitch lines.

The quandry we came up with this weekend poses a problem to the "stitched through" method of construction.

Since it seems unlikely that they had the convenience of a material like modern batting, which would (and does) make a "quilt through" construction very simple, how, exactly, is one supposed to quilte-through two pieces of linen with clumps of tow, cotton, wool, grass, rags, or whatever, randomly dispersed inbetween? I mean, every time you pick up the thing to go to sew on it the stuffing is going to be sloshing around inside it! It seemed to us that it would be very difficult, without some cohesive batting-like pad layer, to actually stitch down through linen, through the padding material, and through the other linen side.

In short, perhaps, without some means keep the padding material together while you are constructing the garment, stuffing in channels really was how it was done.

Does anyone know from extant surviving examples exactly how it was done? Can it be told from surviving examples whether the channels were stuffed or stitched on top of the padding?

Steve

Steve

Yes we can tell the surviving examples are stitched through but I cannot say how they kept it in place while quilting. Modernly my raw cotton comes in a bale and I unroll it and put it in like sheets so it does not move around much. I have in the past stuffed the cotton in like wadding and it was a tad uneven. Both are real hard to pass a needle through but not impossible, but the wadding has some almost impossible areas.

James B. wrote:You going to Pennsic this year Tim? I am going to have just such a rig this year. I am reworking the arms for my arming coat then I will start a heavy outer cotte like the Charles the VI example. I also plan on making a well padded cloth aventail for UNDER my maille one. I think the over cloth aventail is cool but I want to show off the spiffy maille and keep my cotte clean. Though I will not be hiding sinful armor.

Yes, I will be there. We will have to get together for a few ales---yes?

Hmm...you might inspire me to do the same, as far as the outer cote goes. I had never understood quite how that worked till I read your post, but of course it all makes sense now (and seems obvious).

I will at least have an aventail (either mail or gamboised cloth) to go with my WMA Kettel Helm, and perhaps a spiffier bolt case (like an authentic one but on steroids, to accomodate those bulky siloflex tube x-bow bolts---plastic cored, incase I fall on it ).

Cheers,
Tim

Modernly my raw cotton comes in a bale and I unroll it and put it in like sheets so it does not move around much.

So, in effect, you were able to make batting from raw cotton, correct?

If so, then it solves the problem.

Steve

Correct. It is basically like a batting but it does not have a glue bonding it together. I get stuff meant to be shredded to stuff furniture with.

Timothy_D_Finkas wrote:Yes, I will be there. We will have to get together for a few ales---yes?

Tim we will have to pre arange it this year since we only bumped into each other for a breif moment last year.

greg,

im in the middle kingdom, wisconsin. and i know cant fight for another 2 years, wich is part of the reason that ive put off joining and paying thirty bucks a year.

to the rest

what about rope. my dad suggested that it may be in the quilting may be linear because it is stuffed with rope, or maybe rope and wool or other stuffing. just a thaught.

patric blue tooth

Rope wouldn;t be much padding. Padding needs to give.

but it would protect against a cut, rope is frickin hard to cut through with a sword. and it may even give some impact protection. maybe?

patric blue tooth