the making of a suit in pictures

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:00 pm

Thanks for the update, this is very informative. Fantastic work, as usual !...Otto

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:29 pm

here are some pics of one of the arms, well mostly the elbow at this point, I put it in a web photo gallerey as I took a number of images as I was raising the left elbow and such. I'll add more pics to this as I work on the arms again on Monday. This is just a simple elbow not one of the extreme pointed examples, would be fun for this, but not what the customer wanted. It will be getting the reenforcing plates as well as the nice shaped vambraces that rotate slightly up at the lowest elbow articulation. It'll make sense when the pics are up

http://www.thadenarmory.com/customers/suitprog/arms/

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:00 pm

Will those lames be dished before they are affixed?

EDIT: i cant spell, sorry. but you answered.

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:25 am

That couter is coming along nicely. The reinforce for the couter should provide some very interesting pics also. I have long wondered how they are made. If possible, I'd love to see what that piece looks like as a flat sheet as the finished reinforce is such a complex shape I have trouble with visualizing what it would look like flat.

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:57 pm

Thomas, I'm not sure if your asking a question or trying to make a statement. Either way the lames have as much shape as they need, one thing I've noticed is that there seems to be a strange habit of overshaping these plates. There is definately some shape to the originals, but not the extremes that are sometimes seen, the only reason I can see is because of lack of shape in the cop itself or poor articulation design therefore they get overformed in the hope of improving motion.
Lorenzo2, I think you might be a little disturbed by the shape I begin with

, probably won't be a lot of help for you but I'll try and remember to take a pic before I start beating on the piece.

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:27 pm

Muusst... haave... moore.. pic..tures... please....

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:44 pm

Here are some more pics, spent the last couple days sorting all my tax stuff and dealing with odd things like that so no real work, got working on the vambs and rearbraces today though, should have a bit more done tomorrow as I think I'll get a full day in :roll:

Once I get the arms mostly together I'll tweak them a little and do the reenforce plate for the left arm, as well as add the flutes to the right arm wing. Patrick

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:24 am

Oh, I know how paperwork can distract from the fun part of the armouring business!

Your harness is coming along great!
And as others have already stated, it is great to be able to see the progress and heated areas! I have a few ideas I've been nurturing for a while wich includes a harness in the style of some of the suits from Santa Maria delle Grazie and the Avant harness from Churburg and I must say that you have fuelled that fire good!!!
A true inspiration, and greedy as it gets me I must ask: Are we to see pictures of legs, sabatons and mittens as well?
I know you will keep up the good work, but I'll say it anyway!

Cheers and thank you!
Ambrogio/Arne

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:06 am

Ambrogio wrote:Avant harness from

Cheers and thank you!

Ambrogio/Arne

FYI - The "Avant" harness is currently in the Glasgow Museums (Kelvingrove).

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:48 pm

I just clicked a quick pic of one of the vambraces with the inner arm plate and the slots cut for added wrist rotation, sorry not a great pic showing details. I'll try and get a better one tomorrow.

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:59 pm

Here are some pics of the left arm reenforce getting built. I've not gotten it finished so a good bit of tweaking still needs to be done. I should be able to get it Monday as well as finish any last tweaking on the arms.

this is the starting blank, if you wanted to take the time to trim the square edges down and stuff you can, but I figure why worry trying to get it just right on the pattern and then worry about not having enough material. Trimming the outer line of the wings is easy enough to do after you get the shape right.

Here we have it shaped in a little.

Here I've got the right side worked in most the way and doing a test fit on it to see how close the fit is.

Here it is from the back side you can see how the straight line on the pattern has become arched up from the forming and where it will need a little trimming to get the shape right. Patrick

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:05 pm

These pics continue to be amazing. Thank you for sharing them!

Chris

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:36 pm

the shape of that blank amuses me highly. :lol:

Great work Patrick, keep it up!

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:25 am

It shouldn't amuse you so much as be revealing. The gaurd of the vambrace is in essence the replacement of the shield on the Italian form of harness. The shape when finished is efficient, and sufficient for the task, and the riders arm is free from worrying about or manouvering a shield, so they can concentrate on riding with that hand.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:22 am

chef de chambre wrote:It shouldn't amuse you so much as be revealing. The gaurd of the vambrace is in essence the replacement of the shield on the Italian form of harness. The shape when finished is efficient, and sufficient for the task, and the riders arm is free from worrying about or manouvering a shield, so they can concentrate on riding with that hand.

Does this mean that italian riders were better in that they could focus more on the situtaion?

Ugo · Post by **Ugo** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:44 pm

Wha?!?! (gently patting top of head) :wink:

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:28 pm

Thanks; Armour Bob

This has been a great thred, and will help out many on their kits

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:40 pm

here are some more pics, just a couple showing the reenforce mostly kicked into place, it'll get a couple flutes on it shortly, something to go with the right arm.

here is a detail inside the right arm showing the rolls and the slots on the vambrace

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:53 pm

Thomas James Hayman wrote:
chef de chambre wrote:It shouldn't amuse you so much as be revealing. The gaurd of the vambrace is in essence the replacement of the shield on the Italian form of harness. The shape when finished is efficient, and sufficient for the task, and the riders arm is free from worrying about or manouvering a shield, so they can concentrate on riding with that hand.

Does this mean that italian riders were better in that they could focus more on the situtaion?

I'm not exactly sure what you are driving at? Are you asking if they were better riders because they could concentrate on what they were doing? Or are you asking if they were more capable men at arms?

The latter question is difficult to answer. The Condottieri system and it's well-known shortcomings are more indicitive of the nature of war in Italy, and the need of a captain to keep his company intact to be able to have a means of making a living, rather than a question of competance. The issue is furhter clouded by the French Gendarmes taking the league acavalry apart rather nastily at Fornovo in 1495, although the leauge cavalry made some tactical manouvers that would be considered dificult to accomplish as a unit under the conditions.

If the question is "Where they better riders"? Then we have something to make a measure of them. The Renaissance emphasis on natural horsemanship and the natural horseman began in that part of the World, although Dom Duarte of Portugal was foreshadowing this in the 1430's. From the evidence we have from Italy and Spain in this era, given the known methods of training that survive, and making comparision, to, say English methods of training mounts and their riders, there is little doubt thast the Italian method is far more advanced, giving a horse capable of far more (and hints at a rider ditto) than some of the cruder mthods being employed in England.

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:22 pm

Ah! the denizens of the ultra secret form (and guardians of truth justice and the armoring way) have come to our aid and restored this thread to its rightful place (inserd "ode to joy" here)!

A-Bob, you are right about the shape of the left guard blank, it is disturbing. The disturbing thing is how much my assumptions about how a blank should look are formulated based on a cut and weld school of modern armoring and how far they diverge from authentic methods :oops:

. This thread has been very illuminating. Please continue!

Post by JT » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:27 pm

Damn! I'm good.

Now, if only I knew what I'd done....

I am really glad it's back. I'm going to clean out some of A-Bob's "removed post" posts, just for neatness' sake.

Ceramite · Post by **Ceramite** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:21 pm

Three Cheers for JT!!!

I love this thread, it is inspiring. Thanks for the update Armour Bob!

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:20 pm

Hip Hip Hurray!

Hip Hip Hurray!

Hip Hip Hurray! JT

Ugo · Post by **Ugo** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:14 pm

I...I, ...Ah just luuuuuvs the A-Bob! He's sooo dreamy!
Glorioussss.

ps, I hate you!

Post by JT » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:35 pm

AB Hammer wrote:Hip Hip Hurray!
Hip Hip Hurray!
Hip Hip Hurray! JT

Thanks, but I did ... nothing.

I asked whether someone had the URL for it, so I could look things up. I saw that it had been posted, and thought to myself "good... I'll check in on it tonight and see if I can find anything in the database."

Then, a while later, I saw that the post was back in the index.

Ah... heck. I get blamed for all the bad things that happen, so yeah, I'll take credit for this. It was all me!

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:36 pm

arms are pretty well done now, onto the legs

I did do a bit of trimming to the blank after fitting it up, getting it to the shape I wanted, I could have trimmed the blank a little before the shapping but I figure it's just as easy afterwards and then I don't have to worry about not having enough right where I want it. Patrick

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:00 pm

A-Bob, I have a question about those arms. Looking at both the arms it appears that when displayed they are just short of the maximum extension of a human arm. Looking at the pics in both J. Mann's article and Mantova I can't find any similar arms of the era that are perfectly straight when extended either. The question is whether this is an artifact of display or does the range of motion of the arms stop just shy of straight for some reason? If it is a constructional attribute then what is the purpose of it?

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:19 pm

I think that if the shell articulation don't go 180degrees or worse more, it's harded to force it to overbend and broke the elbow of who wear it.
The arm harness is made of quite thin metal and it have some degree of elasticity and/or it can be forced during combat.
My mind run to some "giochi stretti" shown on Flos Duellatorum.
In short, i think it's a safety precaution.

Ken Zicker · Post by **Ken Zicker** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:02 pm

Patrick, this has been a truly inspiring journey you've taken us on. I would like to thank you for your generousity, I was wondering if you have a moment to briefly describe the process of forming the anticlastic curve on the re-enforcement plate over the left arm, I make german gothic floating elbows with the same curve, though not as severe. Again thank you
Ken

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:54 pm

Only got a sec to put up this pic, I'll try and answer questions when I get a few more minutes. Anything people want pics of in particular as the legs progress?

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:46 am

Well, just about everything would be nice!

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:32 am

Outstanding, may i have a poster of you autographed?
:lol:

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:31 am

A-bob; You said "Anything people want pics of in particular as the legs progress?" Hmm, lets see, if I could shoot the moon. . .

1) It may be too late but I am curious what stake is used when raising the knee cop so as to blend the crest of the knee with the body of the cop rather than having the appearance of a flute on top of an egg as seen on some German armors.

2) As someone else mentioned, the anticlastic raising of the wing fan would be cool along with a view of the stakes/hammers. I have some tape of Ugo doing this but I am curious if there are additional methods.

3) A view from the inside of the cuisse showing how the hamstring protection goes together as this is seldom visible in museum photos.

4) A shot of the inside of the knee showing the lames, especially if there are areas where the articulation is slotted.

5) Every possible view of raising/shaping the greaves including the ankle bone areas and attachment points to the rest of the leg.

An absurdly long list, probably. We all realize that you need to make a living. Still, since you asked I thought I put up a wish list and see what fits in to your schedule. What ever you can manage will be appreciated.

belmtho · Post by **belmtho** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:03 pm

a breif exlaination of how to planish the compound curves on the greave would be nice.
cheers
tom

ps it all looks really cool, nice to see it all coming together.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:35 pm

Signo wrote:Outstanding, may i have a poster of you autographed?

I have an idea... we can put Patrick on a public "pedestal"!

He can sit at a table during the conference and sign copies of his raising DVD! :shock:

He would have to come up with a cool stage name, though... like:

Patrick 'Molten Metal' Thaden

or

Patrick 'The Hammer' Thaden

or

Patrick 'Master of Metal' Thaden