Sallet or Barbute

Amalric Unomen · Post by **Amalric Unomen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:42 am

Which is harder to make. I often read sallets are difficult, but most armourers have some nice shapes though often the SCA versions seem too round. OTOH very few show barbutes with the keel or much flair at the bottom. Of course this may just be the version they choose to make. The high end armourers make the right shape, but of course the helmets are not good for SCA combat. I should say that I am refering to the Corinthian barbutes such as the Misaglia helmet.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 6:09 am

Hi Amalric,

I am sure you could make either helmet the correct shape, and make whatever 'additions' are necessary to get either to 'pass'. The shape is a function of the skill of the armourer rather than the legality of the helmet, it is the often unfortunately frankenstien-esque additions to the helmet that are necessart to make them legal.

Wade Allen had suggested it should be quite easy to get a proper barbute to pass with little alteration.

------------------
Bob R.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:53 am

As Bob said, the proper shape is solely dependent on the skill/eye/interest of the armourer (and the pocketbook of the customer). A barbute is really just a tallish itialian salad, so one is no harder to make than the other.

If I weren't a confirmed 14th century guy, I would wear a barbute. We made one that seems to have turned out well (the owner says so...). He has used it for several years in SCA combat and has never had a problem with it. We did not add any ugly bits to make it legal. We were careful to make sure that the eye holes stayed within the SCA guidelines, but otherwise we just recreated a real barbute and it is perfectly fight-worthy.

If I had a picture I would post it, but we made it and shipped it out. Actually I should take a look at Brian's book. Some of the illustrations of our work were shot by the owner of this helmet - he might have included his toy.....

Go for a barbute. No nasty bevors to deal with

Wade

Amalric Unomen · Post by **Amalric Unomen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:31 pm

Bob, Wade, actually it is my intention to wear a barbute and I am confident now that the proper shape can be made. I have even chosen an armourer, but must save the money, and figure out how to hide the expense from my wife.

It just struck me that on so many armourers sites there were good looking sallets, and boring barbutes. Maybe sallets are just more popular and demand has forced the armourers to improve. Or perhaps the demand is for "medicine capsule" barbutes, and so that is what is made.

When I say the helmets from the high end armourers are not good for SCA, I mean they are too thin, and these armourers prefer to use only historically accurate steel thickness.

horsefriend · Post by **horsefriend** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:35 pm

I've made a number of nice barbuta, the ONLY SCA addition was 2 small bridging bars inside the vertical section of the opening, can't be seen from more than 6-8 feet, put in to pacify the marshallate. I think barbuta are the best all-round helms for foot combat.

Alail/Scott

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 4:56 pm

A barbute can definitely be lighter; as Wade said, no bevor. The ability to turn your head more freely, while superfluous in single combat, can be very convenient, especially for a field commander in melee. It's also much easier to make yourself heard through a t-slot than even a ventilated bevor. The barbute is also likely to quite a bit lighter, but that's not always a good thing.
All that aside, I've only seen about a dozen SCA-combat barbutes that I liked. Most of them I've seen were rather too cylindrical, as well as lacking a central ridge.

------------------
Gundobad,
Wise Ogre Armory

'Soylens viridis homines est.'

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

Frederich Von Teufel · Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:47 pm

It's not so much that a Sallet or a Barbute is difficult to do well, as that it's so easy to do them badly. Particularly when the customer doesn't have an eye to see the difference, except in the price tag.

I have a preference for German Sallets, they are what looks "right" to me. They are clean and elegant. Milanese Sallets look awkward and busy. Were I to try to explain this to most of my customers, this would mean nothing, it would be just babble. I could point out pictures of extent peices, showing the difference in lines and shapes, and they'd just see two helms.

The same goes for Barbutes. I can spend all day showing the difference in the skull and tail shapes between a good Barbute and a bad one, and all most would see is the bottom line. The "good" Barbute goes for $500+? I'll take your cheapest model, thanks.

Amalric, I think that if you were to approach those armourers you consider to be 'high end' with specific request for a SCA legal version of a period Barbute/Sallet, they would be more than happy to meet or exceed your expectations.

Frederich

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 12:51 am

I'll ditto what several of the other folks have said, there is a wide variety of "proper" barbutes, although not as many as with other helms because of the limited number of pieces.

Quality varied back then, as well as now, but then there was more competition, and more people could actually make a living at it. I'm borrowing a German book with probably scores of different burgeonets in it. It's kinda like Bubba talk about all the different ways to cook shrimp in Forrest Gump. "You got short brimmed B's, long brimmed B's, brims that go up, brims that go straight, pointed B's, fluted B's, crested B's, ............."

Kyle Wiegers · Post by **Kyle Wiegers** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 3:19 am

So what does this helmet fall under? Sallet? Barbute?

[img]http://www.bestarmour.com/Zbroj%208%20a.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.bestarmour.com/Zbroj%208%20c.JPG[/img]

Kyle.

Emoll · Post by **Emoll** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:15 am

THATS what i want.... *smile*
what is it? 15:th century?
but what ill make will have a different style breastplate... (mostly due to lack of experience) is the breastplate dished from one piece and decorated or dished and riveted from two pieces?

Kyle: I _think_ its a sallet, but since im quite new i dont know for sure...

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:22 am

Hi All,

If you see that helmet with raised visor, it is clearly a barbute. I believe early 15th century.

There is a similar example in the Musee l'Armee, which has a very pointed bowl. Barbuts with visors are extremely unusual, in fact I think there is only one extant example.

------------------
Bob R.

Lynxicanus · Post by **Lynxicanus** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:47 am

Two of the nicest barbutes I have ever seen are here http://www.medievalrepro.com/ in the catalogue. That is how I will make my when I ever get around to it. The professional armourers tell me that the Barbute is one of the hardest helmets to make, the sallet beeing slightly more tame.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 2:46 pm

Those sure are pricey.

Kyle Wiegers · Post by **Kyle Wiegers** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 5:06 am

The armor I posted pictures of comes from an armory in the Czech Republic.

www.bestarmour.com

Kyle.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 8:24 am

Leave the bars out.

The SCA barbutes we made had no added bars. One was in use for years, the other is still in use. Both started out in the Middle Kingdom and one moved west.

As long as your are careful, and make the style with the droopy point over the nose, and you add the reinforcing bar around the face opening (which most had), it should be perfectly combat-worthy without any additions.

You get a beautiful shape, vision, breathing and no moving parts to mess up. The perfect hat.

We need more of them out there (along with the armour to go with them).

Wade

Cerdic · Post by **Cerdic** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:33 am

I like the way that barbutes look and move, but my one concern was getting adequate neck protection that wan't choking you. I have a long neck, and so that becomes a problem (that's why I have a basinet with aventail now).

I'd like to have a more period looking helm than a barred bascinet, but with good visibility and neck protection. A punched visored sallet is one option - though that means horribly expensive gothic armour (italian sallet perhaps?). The other is the barbute. Third is staying with a bascinet, perhaps have a houndskull for tourneys, and switch out to a bar grill for wars.

Thoughts everyone?

This is a tough decision, because it determines the growth of the rest of my armour!!

Cerdic

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cerdic:
I like the way that barbutes look and move, but my one concern was getting adequate neck protection that wan't choking you. I have a long neck, and so that becomes a problem (that's why I have a basinet with aventail now).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My best advice would be to go with a longer helmet so that it overlaps the gorget and then be sure the gorget covers everything it is required to.

I want one of those 14th century helms with the bottom similar to the barbute but the point on top instead of the barbuttes round top. Then I can have my helm not bottom out on my gorget.

Dan

Cerdic · Post by **Cerdic** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:00 pm

Oh yes! The german style bascinet, with the onion top and flared skirt. If I stay with 14th C. like I plan to, that's on the top of my list of definate wants. Anshelm and Tom Justus both do beautiful versions, even in spring steel if you wish.

Cerdic