Authentic Metal Dilemma

ScottC · Post by **ScottC** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:55 am

Maybe this question should be on the Authenticity board. I am not sure. Anyway...

From reading and listening to people on the board, I have come to a personal conclusion. No matter what iron material I wear or work with it is wrong as far as historical accuracy is concerned. Not many people make hardened spring-steel armour. I do not have a forge, nor anybody to study under, therefor I can not make spring steel armour, which is the most accurate in my understanding. Which leaves me to choose between stainless and mild steel.

Because of the properties of stainless, I could use gauges closer to historically accurate wieghts, leading to armour that FEELS closer to the real thing. But it is awful shiny.

Because of the properties of mild, it LOOKS more correct, but has to be in heavier gauges to protect for SCA combat. Therefor any mild suit would look accurate, but move and feel inaccurate. As an added confusion, mild could be polished to a high shine, resulting in it looking like stainless, but with the added weight of mild steel.

While we know some suits were highly polished, I suspect that was unusual.

So, which steel is leads to a more authentic, accurate portrayal of medieval armour? Mild, or stainless? Please discuss your preferences in terms of both SCA use AND historical authenticity.

Thanks.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 11:37 am

Honestly...out of the two choices I prefer Stainless because ... while it looks different...it protects better from the in-authentic pounding we give our armour in the SCA ...with closer to period weight and performance...and is less maintenance.. because most of us only have a few hours a week to devote to repair and maintenance that they would have devoted days to.

I still dont see why spring steel is not an option...there are several armourers out there that work in it....ask around...
See what they do....

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 2:39 pm

It is nigh impossible to get metalurgically (sp?) accurate to medieval metal for armour.

Use period designs, to get period appearence in a ferrous material. That seems the best we can do.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:36 pm

There's nothing at all wrong with mild steel. By no means was absolutely every single piece of period armour made of hardened steel. I'm sure there was plenty of it that was metallurgically closer to mild than to modern spring steels.

It doesn't _have_ to be of unrealistically thick guages in order to protect you. Mild will be fine.

I'm surprised Thomas powers hasn't found this thread yet...

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:33 pm

Use spring steel. Who said it had to be hardened? It will work harden faster than mild. Not all of the period armour was hardened, or hardened correctly. They figured out tempering through trial and error, not through some deeper knowledge of the crystal structure.

I agree that I'd much rather see a reproduction in stainless than the pigs in space helm made from medieval wrought steel.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:43 pm

Short answer: It depends.

Ain't I helpful?

Slightly longer answer (from memory):

The metal varied from place to place, and time to time. They wanted better steels, but quality control was a bit lacking. Some German steels in late period "White Armor" was whiter due to the nickel content (or so I have been told).

"Medieval Armor from Rhodes" does a metalurgical analysis on several pieces. They varied more than Yugos. Some pieces on the VPH (Vickers) tested at nearly 400 (roughly 40 on Rockwell C), while others were as low or lower than 10 on the Rockwell C scale (approximate because it doesn't really go that low).

There were pieces that qualified as wrought iron, mild steel (modern cold rolled is ~ 1020 ms), 1030 and as high as 1060 medium carbon steel.

One visor ran the entire range, it varied in spots from wrought iron to 1060 med. carbon steel.

Add in the variations on attempts and failures to harden and temper...

As far as the gauge of the steel goes, it varied from field armor, tournament armor, and jousting armor. Field armor hopefully would keep you alive, you gave up some protection for movement. If you live, you can replace it. If you die, someone else can replace the broken part. Tournament armor, it gets expensive to replace on a regular basis for a "sport", so it is heavier to hold up better, but you give up a bit of mobility/speed. Jousting armor is specialized for you know what. The faceplates on some helms would be 3/8" thick.

sedric · Post by **sedric** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:56 pm

I'm using stainless , and then I plan on using scotch bright to dull it down a bit.
The person buying it wanted an authentic looking harness without all the weight and maintance conserns of mild steel.
I have got to get some pictures of what I've got done so far.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:34 pm

I will have to agree with some of the posters - I say that you should try untempered spring steel.

The most valid argument has already been given - a lot of the armour that was made would really qualify as untempered anyway. The ability of a medieval armourer to actually get a good temper seems to have varied a lot - based both on the quality of the steel and the skill of the armourer.

We used to make things out of mild and spring. Even without tempering, you can make the results a lot thinner when you use spring. We found about 2 gauges thinner got you about the same results WITHOUT TEMPERING.

Try spring, you will like it. Spring is almost as easy to work as mild. It is not as hard to grind as stainless. It makes a better armour than mild. Overall a good compromise, even without tempering. With tempering you can get really cool stuff, but you don't need to temper.

Wade

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:19 pm

Good answers all.

I just purchased a bunch of 1050 to begin a harness for myself, finally. I'm also raising an armet from what I think is 1095 (I bought the sheet 10 years ago and can't remember what it is exactly). It's debatable whether my kiln will be running when I have the armet done, so I may not heat treat it, but based on how hard it gets by "air-quenching", I think it will be way harder and tougher than mild. It's .063 and I'm hot raising, so I expect to have a pretty tough helmet when I'm done.

I think if I were making an arm or leg harness and wanted it thin and nearly bulletproof, I'd want to heat treat it properly, though I agree that un-heat-treated 1050 beats mild any day of the week. Also, if you hot work like I do, you'll get that "air quench" which I imagine hardens the steel a lot more than just work hardening. It's the case with swords of 5160, you just get more toughness if you hot work on a cool or cold day because the steel cools quicker.

Gook luck!

------------------
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer
Historic Enterprises
http://www.historicenterprises.com

[This message has been edited by Jeffrey Hedgecock (edited 04-06-2002).]

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:38 pm

I tried calling around today, but I guess all the steel places are closed on weekends around here.

Can someone buy spring steel sheets like you would regular mild sheets? Can most places get them if they dont have them in stock or would I have to do something special to get spring steel? I really want to go from partial plate over maille, to full millanese plate, but I dont think I could stand the weight anymore. Plus, when I want to go fancy with all the guardbraces and reinforcements, I would like to have the option of having everything made out of 18g spring steel rather than 16g mild.

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:57 pm

My problem is related but a different one...
I have contacted most of the dealers in sheet metal here in sweden and they all seem to have BIG problems with the 1035 and 1050, the convertion to swedish or european names and numbers was not so hard, but to actually get the metal!
So my question is: Do anyone know of a North European source for sheet steel of the same quality as 1030 to 1050?
Oh, BTW if you know any european sources for B2's I would probably build something for someone for free...

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 9:14 pm

Normal places don't seem to be able to get 1050...

There was a nice conversation a while back that mentioned Admiral steel (where I bought mine) and Precision Steel (which seemed to be cheaper now). Either will probably be happy to sell to you in 100s of pounds lots.

Get greedy. If you are using spring and are making arms, start experimenting with 20g for parts of them and 18 for the rest. We made a set in all 21g once. It got banged up (a lot), but it lasted for years and boy was it light.

I agree with Jeff - tempered is the way to go. What I wanted to convey was that if you can't temper it, untempered 1050 is still better than any of the available alternatives.

Wade

rmermuys · Post by **rmermuys** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 1:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ambrogio:
My problem is related but a different one...
I have contacted most of the dealers in sheet metal here in sweden and they all seem to have BIG problems with the 1035 and 1050, the convertion to swedish or european names and numbers was not so hard, but to actually get the metal!
So my question is: Do anyone know of a North European source for sheet steel of the same quality as 1030 to 1050?
Oh, BTW if you know any european sources for B2's I would probably build something for someone for free...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B2 Beverly Shear? Why can't you just order one from the USA?

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 3:38 am

I will be forced to pay tax, customs and freight if I order it from the US but only freight if within the EU...I was just trying to save some money.
It's not the big income but the small expenses that makes you rich, right?

bernwald · Post by **bernwald** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 7:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ambrogio:
I will be forced to pay tax, customs and freight if I order it from the US but only freight if within the EU...I was just trying to save some money.
It's not the big income but the small expenses that makes you rich, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you are in the sca try to get hold of a us service member. you can have your B2 Beverly Shear shiped to them at continental us rates and then pick it up at double wars or or some other time that is conviniant for you.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 10:40 am

Just a note that's not of a really high importance.

Stainless steel is actually heavier then mild steel. Which means thinner isn't necessarily lighter or it's not necessarily a lot lighter.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:11 pm

Great idea!
I will ask around promptly!
Now, if I only could find a good source for sheet steel (1030-1050 that is)...