maciejowski bible

eoghan_mw · Post by **eoghan_mw** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:43 am

Was just looking at some maciejowski bible images and was amazed at the carnage. Severed heads, limbs, spear pierced, cut helms and the sort. I knew maille wasn't perfect but did it fail in such massive ways (cut completely off from the owner)? Dang, I quess if it was so great plate never would have appeared.
Heh, guess i never considered it but slipping in and out of maille was just as difficule then as it is now, found a picture of David taking his maille shirt off just like I do :-)

No real questions, just posting some observations on a lazy Saturday morining.

Khann · Post by **Khann** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:25 pm

I believe the figures represent Hero so the carnage(wounds) is greatly exaggerated.

Thanks Khann

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 9:33 pm

Yep, a bit like "Die Hard". Lots of spectacle. Whether or not it accurately represents what went on is hard to verify at this distance in time. About the only _reliable_ source is battlefield bodies, such as at Wisby (only 100 years too late). Everything else, whether pictorial or written, is subject to the same cautions regarding sensationalism.

On the other hand, check out the "test cutting" sites at http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/TestCutting/TestCuttingEvent2.htm and http://cuttingtest.tripod.com/cuttingtestphotos/index.html

While not perfect tests (one day we'll get full scientific tests that are (i) complete and (ii) independently verifiable), they are a good step in the right direction. There is a thread about what would constitute a proper test of armour at http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001032.html

We still really don't know for sure, no matter how much theorising goes on, until it is properly and fully tested. Till then, it all tends to be hot air. Fun, though.

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Egfroth

Major Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.) "Do you know what it's like to be in the thick of a bloody battle, with bullets flying and sabres clashing?"
Ned Seagoon: "No."
Bloodnok: "Pity; I was hoping you could tell me . . ."
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 04-06-2002).]

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:51 pm

Someone pointed out that these paintings were supposed to represent "heroes" doing the terrible carnage only heroic figures can (and I agree with that interpretation); what's interesting is that you see scenes of this kind of damage (albeit to a lesser extent) in circumstances that *weren't* showing great religious heroes... just the ordinary, garden-variety type knights. I'm thinking here especially of the Manessa Codex, where we see picture after picture of one-handed sword blows cleaving through good helmets and blood gushing forth; a thing careful research and experimentation show to simply be impossible.

I have a theory about this: In spite of the fact that you simply can't cut into metal armor with a one-handed sword, you see it all the time in the chronicles. Why? If you can't cut armor, why even bother hitting it with a one-handed sword? Well, the fact is that you can still scramble someone's brains with a powerful blow, enough to cause unconsciousness or at least stun him long enough to give you the opening you need to perform some more mortal attack, or to take him for ransom.

Unfortunately, such a blow wouldn't look any different in a MS painting than would a light "tink"; all you'd see is the edge of the sword in contact with the edge of the helm. My theory is that the blood-gushing-type paintings are meant to represent the *hugely* powerful blows that can't be shown any other way; in other words, it's an artistic way of depicting a very powerful blow.

I can't prove this (and no one will ever be able to do so unless and until we find the writings of some MS painter that talks about it), but I have spoken with a few medieval historians (among them Steve Muhlenburg) who think this is consistent with the medieval mindset.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 12:06 am

Perhaps too is the possibility of wrought iron helmets shattering because of the inconsistancy of the metal. Something pounded out of a lump and forge-welded would not react with the consistancy of modern "pure" mild steel and would perhaps have weak points.

Bini · Post by **Bini** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 5:13 pm

Where would one pick up a copy of the Maciejowski Bible?

Rainald · Post by **Rainald** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bini:
Where would one pick up a copy of the Maciejowski Bible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's been out of print forever but comes up on the usual used book retailers. Expect to pay some cash though, there not real cheap.

[This message has been edited by Rainald (edited 04-15-2002).]

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:39 am

The Maciejowski has been reprinted as the Old Testament Miniatures, though it is out of print. It is available from used-booksellers. I got mine through Amazon.com for about $100.

It is an amazing book, huge book. 40+ illuminations.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:05 am

A great book.

It is on bibliofind.com right now for about $65 to $200 depending on the dealer.

Wade