NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

[EponaLeGray]

loaner gear doesn't fit me. but I've done that song and dance. my authorization fight was in legs that were way too big and latched together. which may or may not of caused me to fall on my ass. (history does not record.)

I have loved fighting and do-I fell out for awhile because of shoulder issues and family travel.

Verdammt. I was so hoping to have an excuse for woad making.
Not bad for a helm cost, shall go investigate-what about hjalmr? friend of a friend recommended him. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21215018@N07/)

[Caius705]

Awesome. If you know you want to fight, you should be fine picking out a kit.

I've seen a hidden rigid material under chainmail kit (or a tunic) done very well, so if you'd rather do that, you certainly can.

Is Hjalmr making helms again? If so, he's excellent for helms.

Also, woad, totally not period as body paint. http://www.dunsgathan.net/essays/woad.htm

[EponaLeGray]

damn. crush my hopes and dreams, why dontcha?

I wasn't aware he had ceased-but I've been holding onto that link for awhile. HMM. I'll let you know if I come with anymore questions

[Caius705]

Don't misunderstand, I have no clue if he's making helms again or not. He may be. I truly am unaware. and good luck. If you need more advice, just ask. I (or someone more knowledgeable than me) can help.

[EponaLeGray]

So I recently got gifted a ton of scrap leather, which I could use for some armor things.
How the hell does one use rivets?

[Caius705]

So I recently got gifted a ton of scrap leather, which I could use for some armor things.
How the hell does one use rivets?

What weight? What tanning process (chrome or veg)? How big of pieces?

Rivets are pretty much the height of simplicity in concept. Goes through a hole in the leather, then had a washer of some sort (needs to be metal) on the other side. Then you tap the point of the rivet with a ballpeen hammer till it mushrooms down and has a diameter larger than the hole in the washer so that it can't pull back through.

Looks like this to start. R= rivet, L=leather, W=washer




Edit, my attempted visual looks retarded.

[EponaLeGray]

was veg tanned, dunno weight, varying sizes of pieces.
I have a passle of little copper rivets.

[Caius705]

Two piece rivets? and you could possibly make lamellar scales out of them. Depends on the size, weight and pattern you want to use.

[EponaLeGray]

copper rivets-two piece, don't have enough leather for lamellar. was thinking I could make a gorget and half gaunts out of em. speaking of half gaunts, I found this pattern. Useable, suggestions, and what sort of sheet metal?

http://lupusdraconis.tumblr.com/post/60705084093

[Caius705]

18 gauge mild or stainless would work pretty well (stainless would be better, no rust) And depends on the gorget. Personally, I like steel, or at least some metal. I've seen alum under leather ones get bent badly by spear thrusts. I'm not sure I'd trust just leather to keep my trachea safe. If you go that route, you could make metal plates to fit under your gorget leather. Same gauge as the demi's.

Having said that, I don't use demi's, you might not even need the metal if the leather is 10-12 oz. It's your hand and your call.

[EponaLeGray]

would galvanized steel an acceptable thing?

[Caius705]

I don't see why not, if it's the correct gauge. Having said that, I don't like galvanized. Always smells really funky to me. It will help keep rust down, but there area ways to do that that don't smell so bad.

[EponaLeGray]

hi. i am poor and with student. the steel being offered to me would be free. Do I have concerns regarding rust?

[Caius705]

None that couldn't easily be addressed. If it's galvanized, it should be fairly rust resistant. If not, paint or wax works well.

[Crom]

Hello all,

I am a college student in upstate NY and an aspiring amateur kickboxer. The recent dearth of kickboxing events in my area have led my training partners and I to seek some other venues for competitive fighting, and since we are all history nerds and a few of us former members of the SCA, we were thinking of starting up in the newly formed Armored Combat League. Our general level of physical fitness is high, and our willingness to throw-down is even higher. The only barrier we are encountering is the cost of acquiring adequate steel armor. In hopes of keeping costs down, we were thinking of acquiring the materials ourselves and lacing together some lamellar armor for our bodies, legs and arms. Our armoring skills amount to cutting scales and lacing them together, so the more fiddly bits (helmets, gauntlets, knees, and the like) will be acquired from reputable armorers.

We were wondering if anyone familiar with Armored Combat League/Bohurt can give us some advice on where to acquire steel and what sort of steel to use? Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing back.

[Caius705]

You could use stainless, spring stainless (410 and 301 being the formost here), medium carbon steels (1050 being the most common of these) and Chromoly steels (pretty much 4130)

First, you should totally read everything Craig Nadler writes about steels used in armor
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=161852


I have never tempered steel (stupid damn apartment living) but a friend and I were looking at making lamellar plates on a budget and decided that 4130 would probably be the best material, since you can buy it in 1mm sheets relatively cheaply (even more cheaply if bought a few hundred pounds at a time). Since it comes annealed (softened) you can cut it with a harbor freight shear (http://www.harborfreight.com/throatless ... 38413.htm;) and drill it out with a cheap drill press, which will help cut down on tool costs. Then you can harden it in a small forge (there are hundreds of designs out there for these, pick one) and quench it in an oil bath, then temper it in a plain oven. With a little bit of practice, you should be able to get the method down. And since they're individual plates, if one is tempered too soft or too brittle, you don't get a catastrophic failure like you do with larger plates (that's the theory anyway

Upsides of this? Way cheaper than buying scales or trying to make them out of a more expensive material (301 full hard stainless gets expensive quick and is awful to drill through in my experience, which is why it's normally laser cut)

Down sides? Well, it can rust. Which sucks, especially being lamellar it's hard to keep it clean. And intensive in man hours.


Bear in mind, I've never done this. I don't know any reason it shouldn't work. But I've been wrong before.

[Caius705]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=165421&hilit=4130+lamellar


Relevant thread. Some one pointed out that high tensile banding is usually 1050 and can be much cheaper and less to cut than a sheet. I don't know about that, but it might be worth looking into.

[Crom]

Thank you for the quick reply Caius. I admit to a whole lot of ignorance, so bear with me here. Would 1050 carbon steel need to be hardened or tempered for use in armor, or could it be cut and laced in the annealed state (which I assume means the state in which one purchases it) and still provide adequate protection for ACL combat?

[Caius705]

Definitely needs to be tempered. Go ahead and read that post from Craig that I linked. But for quick reference

304 (also applies for 316) stainless: non hardenable, can be found as scrap, buying sheets is expensive, tends to eat up tools (your mileage may vary, some people like working in it) you'd have to use a heavier gauge than any other steel for your armor, which means more weight, I'd pass on it. Only plus is that it's fairly common and doesn't rust

401 Stainless : very good rust resistance, can oxidize ever so slightly under awful conditions, not really a worry for you, must be tempered, more expensive than 1050 or 4130, little bit harder on tools, must be odered in bulk, little more finicky in heat treatment stage (can be brittle if done incorrectly from what I hear)

301 Full Hard stainless steel: Make sure to buy full hardened, otherwise it's just as bad as 304. Comes in sheets or rolls already hardened, which means you don't have to treat it. Icefalcon uses this for his, he uses 21g, which seems to work well. Unless you get this laser cut, it's a bitch to cut and eats up drill bits. Also, unless buying in serious bulk, can be quite expensive.

Mild steel (1008 or other close alloys):Don't bother with it. Too soft, can't be hardened, rusts really easily, to get the protection you need, you'd need a really heavy gauge, meaning more weight on your armor. Literally the only thing going for it is that it's cheap and common. Seriously, not for ACL.

Carbon steel (1045, 1050, 1060 and the like): Works well. Must be tempered (you can look up the process for that, there are data sheets on it.), but cuts easily when annealed (especially in the gauges you can use), drills easily, easy enough to buy from admiral steel in bulk. Can be cheap when bought in bulk. Downsides, rusts easily, has to be bought in bulk to be at all economical, must be tempered

Chromoly (4130 steel):Works well. Must be tempered, works like carbon steel does, maybe slightly tougher (depends on who you ask). Much easier to get in smaller orders (ebay and amazon both carry sheets of it, still cheaper to order in bulk though) Supposedly slightly more rust resistant than carbon steel (I really don't know). Downsides:Rusts, has to be tempered.


I've worked (just a little) with 1008/mild steel, with 304 stainless and with 301 stainless. Any information past those is purely second hand and may be incorrect. Seriously, ask other people, I don't want to lead you wrong on any of these things.

As for rust preventative, beeswax works, blackening can work (if done at the same time as the tempering stage; if you try to do it later you'll destroy your temper and your armor will crumple under swords) There are a huge variety of oils that can be applied, you can just be diligent with cleaning. Lots of options.

Spring stainless is your ideal for lamellar. It's lightweight, doesn't rust, and it's very protective. It's also more expensive.
It's your armor, look into it, decide what you want, what you can afford (in time and money) and do your goddamn research. Both materials and historical. You need a documentable kit. So make sure you do the research.

One more note, the "tombstone" shape is traditional for laced lamellar, but I'm fairly certain that in terms of man hours and materials that a rectangular plate is the most efficient. Go to polar bear forge's website and look at all the shapes of plates he has, that should give you an idea for how much they vary.

Also, if you decide this is too much work, polar bear forge and Icefalcon sell 301 lamellar plates. Depending on your size, you may need 300-450 (at a guess). As of currently, I think they're .95 dollars each (check and make sure). If you can afford that better than the time, tools and materail (not to mention fuckups and maintenance) then that may be a better solution.

If you are not on the FB page for Battle of the Nations, team USA, join it. There was a thread I posted a few days ago asking Rus kit related question. There were tons of great answers there.

[Crom]

Thank you Caius, this has been very helpful. Having looked at the Polar Bear Forge and Icefalcon sites, I am not rather tempted to buy a Coat-of-Plates kit from Polar Bear Forge, as with the addition of some leather and rivets, it seems cheaper and less frustrating than buying steel. Buying lamellar scales looks like a much less frustrating endeavor as well.

[Matt Johnson]

Hi Newbie to the forum here.
I'm a farrier and looking to start making some armor as a hobby.
I had a few questions for the knowledgeable before I dive in on my own.

1)From other posts i've gathered that popular steels amongst the group were 1050 and 4130 chromoly(Not really interested in stainless atm);
is this true? What do you prefer?

2)What is an average price & and what would you would consider a good price for 2'x 2' sheets?

3)I plan on working with a propane forge as that is what I use on a day to day basis are there any specific steels that I should avoid or
that might better suit this type of forge work?

Last, may the Beverly Shear gods visit a craigslist near me soon! Meanwhile I'll survive with an angle grinder and military grade bomb suit.

-Matt

[don]

Welcome to the forum Matt.

Sorry, I'm reading this prior to getting ready for work so I'm not sure if you've cross posted or started another thread?
There is/was a blacksmith from the UK on here who's username escapes me at the moment (either starts with "Iron" or there's "monger" somewhere in the username...... knowing my luck it's "iron monger").

Try using the search or user buttons at the top of the page, and you may find the info you seek.

As for making armour, you need to decide if you want to make "display/costume/fantasy" armour or "sport" armour. What I mean by this is, the "sport" armour well have to meet the standards of Western Martial Arts (WMA) societies. I believe Valentine Armouries started out making both types and dropped the sport side when the various groups started drastically changing there standards.

Don

[HugoSteinhardt]

In the First post under Tools and supplies, the first Bullet is, Hals' "Deluxe Newbie Armouring Kit". Where can i find more information on these?

[don]

You would be looking for Halberds.
On aside note; if you buy the kit, try getting a helm kit from zweihammer (sp?) to "test" the tools out.

Don

[HugoSteinhardt]

You would be looking for Halberds.
On aside note; if you buy the kit, try getting a helm kit from zweihammer (sp?) to "test" the tools out.

Don

Yeah I already found the tools from Halberd and I was actually considering a Helm Kit TBH. I'll be using a Loaner Helm until i get/Assemble a Kit Helm. he also has a different "Starter Kit" as well.

[dan1979]

My lords and ladies I ask for advice on helm making. What is recommended for rivets for a helm. This is the first one for me so any advice is much appreciated.

Thank you in advance

Dan

[don]

For rivets, anything but pop rivets.

Some use dome headed solid rivets, some use flat headed tinners rivets, while others use roofing nails. You can use wire/eighth inch bar stock and truly "make" your own rivets if you would like (just a note, these are all steel). If you look in your local Marshall's guide, you can find more/proper info.

Any material other then steel can be used as a decorative rivet or to hold the whole assembly together in a decorative/show-piece type of helm.

This advice is saying this helm well be used within the confines of SCA combat. If you are with a group other then the SCA, talk to the head of the group to get proper direction.


Don

[HugoSteinhardt]

I don't know if this is on the site or not but its an amazing resource i found when surfing the web on my cell phone xD

The Medieval Tailor's Assistant

Its a great PDF with garb from 1200-1500 i believe. It has patterns, sewing techniques, and more. It has enlightened me quite a bit for my early 14th C garb.

[critch]

I'm new to blacksmithing and my goal is to do both historical but mostly fantasy armor so I'm not necessarily going the historical route... I've been doing some serious thinking about a welder and could use some advice. I'm currently surrounded by woods and lack (atleast I think) a safe area for a forge. I've heard from others they think MIG and Oxy Acetylene would be a bad choice for a basement with TIG being the best option with fewer gasses and smoke, etc. On the other side I'm thinking Oxy Acetylene would be great for heating and some rough cutting although I'm unsure about the prices. I'm on a pretty tight budget as far as all this goes and I'm looking for something I won't regret buying. I only plan on working up to 12 or 14 gauge mild steel and/or 16 gauge stainless. I'm also aware not all welders are created equal for their ability to weld different materials.

-Thanks,

Nate.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Hey Nate,

There are pros and cons to every welding system, but for an all-purpose tool, you can't go wrong with Oxy-Acet. Its the only welding rig that also can cut and heat. You can use it when brazing, to heat plate for raising, to heat thicker metal for bending, etc.

[critch]

Would you consider "fusion welding" with an Oxy Acetylene the strongest weld possible? I'm unfamiliar aside from brazing that I've done 5+ years ago for HVAC/R with an OA torch.

Also how about cost? Oxy Acetylene $200 or so? Aside from cutting/ welding tips? I'm on a pretty tight budget as of now but am eager to start sooner then later with projects.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

I don't have enough information on hand to definitively say that welding with oxy-acet produces the strongest weld available...but, if done properly, the weld will be stronger than the base metal. It is also much easier to smooth and blend a weld into the plates when using an oxy-acet rig. The smoother weld is easier to hammer and shape with the rest of the metal. If you do it right, you can make the weld disappear entirely.

Price would depend on where you're living, but an oxy-acet rig is much less expensive up front than a MIG welder. Especially when you consider the fact that you'd probably need to buy other equipment to cut or heat, as well.

[coreythompsonhm]

I would definitely not get a tig for starting. Massive investment up front.

[critch]

Good points, thanks guys. I'm in New England so I'm unsure how pricing would be affected greatly?

[don]

If you go shopping around to a few places (more into the "speciality" shops area) or ask around at a few welding shops, you may find more of the answers you seek.

If money is tight, an oxy-fuel system may fit the bill better then an arc set-up at the moment and further down the road. Not knowing how much welding you do or have done in the past, you may want to take a course at the local community college before deciding on the rig. In high school some twenty odd years ago, I found oxy welding easier to pick up then MIG welding as I only had to get a neutral flame and let the metal heat up vice trying to figure out what settings to use (it turned out either like Swiss cheese or a blob of filler).

YMMV

Don
P.S. Have you considered mastering the art of forge welding?