NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

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Halberds
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Halberds »

veltez wrote:To any wanting to be an apprentice, take these words to heart. From one beginner to another, the guy has a point.



http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk
This needs repeating.
http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk

I have had 5 apprentices over the years and none had what this guy was talking about.
All they wanted was free tools, time, materials and to trash my shop.
I will have no more of it.

It is a shame.... but I could have tought them a great deal.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Halberds wrote:
veltez wrote:To any wanting to be an apprentice, take these words to heart. From one beginner to another, the guy has a point.



http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk
This needs repeating.
http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk

I have had 5 apprentices over the years and none had what this guy was talking about.
All they wanted was free tools, time, materials and to trash my shop.
I will have no more of it.

It is a shame.... but I could have tought them a great deal.
:( Makes me weep. Also makes me want to kick the collective mentality of my generation.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by veltez »

Halberds wrote:
veltez wrote:To any wanting to be an apprentice, take these words to heart. From one beginner to another, the guy has a point.



http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk
This needs repeating.
http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk

I have had 5 apprentices over the years and none had what this guy was talking about.
All they wanted was free tools, time, materials and to trash my shop.
I will have no more of it.

It is a shame.... but I could have tought them a great deal.

Makes me wish I lived in Texas honestly... Least im close to pennsic
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Effingham »

I love this guy.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Scott Landua »

Video is excellent. Well said all around.

So, on to some possibly silly newbie questions:

1) What gauge would a stainless sink bottom generally be? I've got access to some trashed sinks, but haven't touched them yet to see if they would actually be worth my time to utilize. I've seen all sorts of variables in looking online for thicknesses and types, but it looks like there are a lot of 304 or other 300's stainless, but gauge seems variable.

2) Any idea what grade steel is generally used in steel shipping drums. Again, I can get hands on a few of these which were manufactured somewhere between 16ga to 20ga, but I can't find specs on what the steel is.

Barring coatings, linings, and paint on the items, would these, in your opinions, serve as decent low grade or learner materials?

Thanks!
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Maelgwyn »

My local metal supplier sells mild steel drop-cuts at $ .40/pound. This stuff is flat, clean and cheap which is perfect for learning on. I just bought enough 14g. mild steel for 2 helms for about $13. Some scavenged materials can be re-used but the labor of unmaking/remaking it just isn't worth it in many cases. That having been said, a sheet metal gauge like http://www.eastwood.com/sheet-metal-gauge.html can be very helpful when shopping at either the drop bin at the metal shop or at the salvage yard.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Halberds »

I agree the stainless steel sinks are to thin for armour.

Now if you just want some cool fantasy armour go for it.
However cutting sinks up is a chore. :|

Best of luck on your quest.

Hal
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Scott Landua »

Good deal, thanks for the inputs!

Yeah, I figured it wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park to chop up something in SS, but possibly worth it for the free-ness of the sink I acquired.

I won't make a nice planter out of it quite yet, but it does seem to be a thinner bottomed sink than some of the premium sinks claim to be.

Thanks again!
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Halberds »

I know what you mean about the planter.
Some of my helms are waste paper baskets.
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Post by Scott Landua »

Hehe, definitely. Re-purposed with a purpose :)

At least the stainless sink planter wouldn't rust out . . . .
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Russ Mitchell »

@ Freiman: I *just* stumbled onto this while looking for helm-padding advice. Have you considered suggesting an Ethiopian noble?
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by EvilRyss »

So, not exactly a noob to armor, but a noob starting to work with plate. Due to some fantastic luck and work shutting down their metal shop, I now have a b3 and a large amount of 18 ga galvanized. My question is how can I go about finishing galvanized with killing myself? Or removing the galvanizing so I can heat the steel?
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Post by randyshipp »

I've heard some truly scary stuff about the galvanized. I'd proceed with extreme caution.
Randy...

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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by EvilRyss »

I know your not supposed to heat it. I think I'm going to try an acid bath to remove it and see how that works. Failing that I'm not sure where to go. I know with grinding the dust is bad.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Gawin »

My recollection of chemistry class says that acid should take the zinc off, however is it really worth the effort? Steel isn't really that expensive, and 18 ga. is a little light for a lot of the pieces.

You could leave the galvanized finish alone and just use that metal for projects where heating/a nice visible surface aren't really necessary. It would seem that galvanized steel would work quite well for making splints or plates for brigandine/Coats of plates. You wouldn't need to worry about the metal rusting, and nobody could see it was galvanized. A little paint will keep it invisible on the inside. You could armor almost your entire body without having the metal visible, and you'd want something thicker for elbow/knee cops, helm, and gauntlets anyhow.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by EvilRyss »

The short answer is yes. Time I have and galvanized I have. I also have a small sheet of 11 ga galvanized that wants to be used for a helm. What I am short of constantly is money, skills and tools. Using what I have gives me a chance to remedy money and skills, which leads to more tools and materials.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Gawin »

Have you accounted for the cost of the chemicals, tools, and perhaps more importantly, the cost of the chemical safety equipment? My guess is that you can get quite a bit of mild steel for the cost of the safety gear (easily $100), and that comes with the added benefit of not having to play (and dispose of) sizable volumes of strong acids.
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Post by EvilRyss »

Yeah, I've been doing acid etching already, so I have that equipment. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to disregard advice about just using mild steel. From every response to I've gotten it seems better. But I still have a significant quantity of galvanized, as well. I will be making splints and scales out of it. As well as a set of lam, because I'm kinda stubborn that way. But I still want to try and make something where I don't have to hide the metal.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Halberds »

I don't know what to tell ya but what you already know.
Grind, burn or acid removal.
However, the zinc galvanizing works great under leather and such.

Good advice was given about securing non galvanized steel for your helm.
You will thank him later.

Best of luck on your quest.

Hal
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Post by eldar1 »

Go to "Harbor frieght.com"they will have most of your tools you will use.They even have english wheels,pnuematic planishing hammers throatless shears for the more accomplished armorer.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Takamura »

So, I'm extremely new to armoring and was wondering if there was a glossary of terms or something?
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Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Takamura wrote:So, I'm extremely new to armoring and was wondering if there was a glossary of terms or something?
Glossary and other useful essays can be found here. http://armourarchive.org/essays/ :)
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Oskar der Drachen »

Making Spring Pins for Visored Helms

There was a call for a tutorial, and I couldn't find a complete on in a search, so I wrote one following the process I worked out with the help and advice of the much more knowledgeable people here in the forum. If there is a more complete tutorial, please do add the link!

And for posterity, this is the sequence that I worked out to get all the holes and pins in the correct placements. Read the "Fitting For Use" section first, and ALL of the instructions before you start building.

Materials used for this build:

6mm - 1/4" bar for Locking Pins
10mm - 7/16" bar for Buttons
Hacksaw blade (teeth removed optional)
5mm rivets

Tools - Centrepunch, Angle grinder (but all work could be done with hacksaw and files), Bench vice, ball pein hammer, drill and bits, oil for lube and drilling, ruler, dividers, marking pen/pencil.

1. Site and mark placement on helm for Spring Pin Assembly, marking a straight line, and the three Holes. Locking pin, Button, and Anchor rivet.
2. Mark and drill hole for the Button, just larger than the Button (11mm hole, 10mm button)
3. Cut Spring (hacksaw blade in this case) to be overly long for the assembly taking into account all three holes.
4. Mark, punch and drill the anchor hole for the Button in the middle of the Spring, make the button*** (overly long) and assemble button to the spring. Fit the Button to the button hole making sure of easy movement in the hole, deburr hole and Button.
5. Mark and drill the Locking Pin hole in the helm, making sure you have a vice grips on the visor to hold it closed and in place. Drill the hole just larger than the pin will be. (7mm hole, 6mm pin)
6. Fit the Button in the Button hole, and align the Spring to the Locking hole. Hold the button and spring *tightly* to the inside of the helm surface, and mark the spring *through* the Locking hole. Make sure the hole marked on the spring is *centred* on the Spring and remark if needed.
7. Punch & drill the Locking pin hole in the spring, make, fit and peen the Locking pin in place. *** Make sure the Locking pin is overly long. Smooth the pin and make sure it is at right angles and centred on the Spring. Fit the Locking Pin, Button and Spring assembly to the helm. File the holes in the helm *lightly* to make a good working fit.
8. Drill the Anchor rivet hole(s) in the helm. Make sure the hole is a *tight* fit for the rivet(s) used.
9. Fit the Locking Pin Assembly tightly to the inside of the helm and clamp. Make sure the two existing pins are centred in their holes, and mark the Spring *through* the Anchor hole(s) in the helm.
10. Remove the Assembly from the helm and inspect. The marked hole on the spring might not be centred on the Spring. **Do Not Correct or Move This Mark** Punch & Drill the hole as is, where is, to the best of your ability. Don't Stuff this up! Use a nut and bolt the same diameter as your rivet with a washer on the inside of the helm to install the Assembly to the helm.
11. A this point trim the excess length from the Spring. Trim the Spring closely at the Locking Pin end, and be generous at the Anchor rivet end.

Fitting for Use.

1. You will have to file the holes for the Button and the Locking Pin to a slightly oval shape to get them to move properly. The Locking Pin Assembly pivots on the Anchor Rivet so the pins in the middle and the far end of the Spring strip will describe a slight arc as they move. Do this carefully and a little at a time.
2. Once the pins move smoothly, work out how long the pins need to be a little at a time. A small push on the Button will make for a longer travel in the Locking Pin. The longer you make the hole for the Button, the deeper you will be able to push it, and the deeper your Locking pin will move. That last sentence will make more sense when you see it in action.
3. Once you have a good smooth movement for the Locking pin and the Button, a little bit at a time shorten the Locking Pin until it engages and disengages the plates of the Skull and Visor in the helm.
4. Depending on how you want it to work, make sure the top of your Locking Pin is smooth all the time you are fitting it. This is a slow and careful process. If you get it too short, you will waste all your previous efforts.
5. Once the movement and functions are satisfactory, round, smooth and polish the working components. Make your Button shorter, so that when you push it the is just enough showing to give the Locking pin the needed travel. If it is too long you will put too much stress on your Spring. You also might push the Locking pin too far into the skull of the helm and force it out of its hole.
6. The holes for the Locking Pin might end up as different sizes. The Skull hole might be bigger than the Visor hole. This did not matter to me as it made the whole Assembly work better, and the Skull hole is covered by the visor when the visor is closed.

*** Locking and Button pins are made by taking about an inch of bar stock and grinding or filing about 1/4" of a smaller diameter "shoulder" or smaller diameter pin on one end that you fit through a hole drilled to match in the spring. For the Locking pin at 6mm, I used a 5mm shoulder and hole. For the Button I filed the same 5mm shoulder into the bottom of it so I could use the same drill bits to drill the hacksaw blade. The Shoulder is used as a rivet shank to secure the Pins to the spring. Hold the pin in a vice and file the shoulder round with right angles and a flat surface so the Spring will sit flush to the bottom of the Spring. Fit the Spring to the pin making sure the pin is centred on the spring and securely peen the Pin to the Spring with the ball pein hammer. The Pin should sit flat to the Spring at right angles to it. Flatten any curve made in the Spring after attaching the Pins.

See this thread: posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=157960 for the pictures of the process I went through.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Halberds »

I have this to add to the fine post above.
Image

The spring is banding material and the pins are 1/4" mild steel rods.
The hook is hammered 1/4 rod.
Turn down a short length of your 1/4" rod to 3/16" and peen to the components.

The copper disk is a wear pivot point inside the helm.
The rivets are 3/16" steel.

Hal
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by EponaLeGray »

Being a dumb nub here-and this being my first post, so's I stop lurking...
I'm getting back into heavy fighting, and a friend helped me make plastic legs. Problem is that I don't trust the knees if I get a good stab from someone.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I really don't want to replace these given effort put in, and that not much actually fits me.
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Post by Caius705 »

EponaLeGray wrote:Being a dumb nub here-and this being my first post, so's I stop lurking...
I'm getting back into heavy fighting, and a friend helped me make plastic legs. Problem is that I don't trust the knees if I get a good stab from someone.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I really don't want to replace these given effort put in, and that not much actually fits me.
Don't know the material, hard to say for sure. If it was HDPE, it would probably be ok (though there are some swings that I wouldn't want to take while wearing that) I know funds are often short, but you might consider buying a simple steel pair from Rough From the Hammer instead.

Also, adding in your location can help, as there may be local guys who can assist.

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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by EponaLeGray »

Chi-town locale. (it's decently padded to take shots having tested (ow) how it takes shots. Juuust not trusting those knees.)

I'm also, y'know, frakkin tiny, so metal legs seem like a negative, not a plus. ¬¬
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Caius705 »

Well, as for metal vs plastic, if you have the cash to spare, a set of aluminum ones won't weigh a noticeable amount more than the plastic would. Are you going to build a hidden armor kit and do you have any particular style picked out yet?
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Post by EponaLeGray »

I have a certain amount of budget built in, since it's gonna take me awhile to put together a kit, so TL;DR yesish regarding cash. Current plan has me talking to some folks regarding gauntlets and gorget, no clue regarding helm (where/what/who), and probably going to put together lamellar since I don't sleep. If regarding style you mean a persona or historical period, no. I haven't a damn clue where to put my focus to for that, or how to do that and still keep it cheapish.
Fair enough regarding aluminum. Same place to order from?
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by coreythompsonhm »

I wouldn't trust plastic to protect my knees.
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Post by Caius705 »

Well lamellar puts you more eastern, so that opens up a whole lot of areas and time periods. Rus is popular, byzantine is pretty. Turkish is really pretty. Japanese is awesome when done right. Make sure to pick out a time period that calls to you.

Rough from the hammer is pretty good, known for being solid. http://roughfromthehammer.com/parts.html

Personally, I'd not worry about a few ounces more weight and I'd buy the steel ones for $13 bucks, since you don't have a large budget. I understand that you're small, but the overall weight increase shouldn't be unmanageable. In my opinion. OTOH, my current kit weighs circa 45-50 lbs. So it's personal preference.
Bokalo also makes cheap simple cops, http://www.bokalosarmoury.com/elbowsknees.htm
but I've not ordered from them, so don't take that as an endorsement.

Keep the questions coming, I'm bored today.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by EponaLeGray »

hm, been checking out bokalo's stuff-some folks of mine recommended them as well.
The tiny is more to do with, y'know..sizing.
Asking for custom makes things a wee bit more expensive was my understanding. Less concerned with weight, I'll adjust. It just seemed to make less sense. But if I'm ordering just knees and attaching em to the legs-I'm definitely down with that.

Russian wouldn't be too far out of my family heritage to be fun to make a nod to. (though given name I'm tempted to aim more towards Gauls) What sorta look would that entail?
Hmmmm...also, recommendations of place to get helm? (max willing to spend is 150)
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Post by EponaLeGray »

Note: plastic is Hdpe, according to the friend who helped me make em
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Post by Caius705 »

EponaLeGray wrote:hm, been checking out bokalo's stuff-some folks of mine recommended them as well.
The tiny is more to do with, y'know..sizing.
Asking for custom makes things a wee bit more expensive was my understanding. Less concerned with weight, I'll adjust. It just seemed to make less sense. But if I'm ordering just knees and attaching em to the legs-I'm definitely down with that.

Russian wouldn't be too far out of my family heritage to be fun to make a nod to. (though given name I'm tempted to aim more towards Gauls) What sorta look would that entail?
Hmmmm...also, recommendations of place to get helm? (max willing to spend is 150)

My suggestion is (assuming you have tried loaner gear and found that you love fighting) to decide what you'd like to do for your kit and then design around that. Pick a time period and a location. You don't have to stay with that forever, but it does look really bad to have one part of your kit be late 16th century and the rest of it be straight up norse (as an example).
I think that Gauls were too early and too western for lamellar. Would have been chain or nothing (hidden armor in our case) I like rus.
Having said that, for a rus impression, I think an accdntprone spangenhelm would probably be acceptable, especially if you had a mail drape on the sides. He may be back taking orders soon. Base cost is 90 plus shipping.

Other cheap helmets are iron monger bascinets (which don't match your lamellar ideas) at 150.

If you see a cheap helm, ask about it here. If you are considering buying from an armory, use the search function and make sure they gave a good repuation. Don't buy ashcraft baker.
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Re: NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

Post by Caius705 »

Good reference for Rus

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=56840&hilit

And for any other kit you could think of viewforum.php?f=14
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