@$#% Tear @#%

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:36 pm

Well, I was working on some .032 gauge 4130 steel, trying to shape it into a reasonably good looking pair of vambraces when I TORE the freaking metal.... #$%@# that's the first peice of metal that I've ever torn... sigh...

I'm not to upset about it since the pattern that we crafted was not quuuuuiiiittte right, and I'll let the guy who's getting the kiln together use these pieces for practice on hardening.... still...

Anyway, here's the pics, feel free to comment, critique, nag, gripe, whatever makes you happy

http://cchipman.homeip.net/armour_i've_made.htm

<img border="2" src="http://cchipman.homeip.net/images/thumbnails/Hardened_Steel_Vambrace-BWLR_small.JPG" alt="Hardened Steel Vambrace-BWLR.JPG (55558 bytes)" width="150" height="112">
<img border="2" src="http://cchipman.homeip.net/images/thumbnails/Hardened_Steel_Tear-BWLR_small.JPG" alt="Hardened Steel Tear-BWLR.JPG (72877 bytes)" width="150" height="112">



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Jean Paul de Sens (JP)

And Shepherds we shall be
for thee my lord for thee
power hath descended forth from thy hand
so that my feet may swiftly carry out thy command
And we shall flow a river forth unto thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be
In nomini patriath, fili, espritus sancti.

-The Boondock Saints

mrks · Post by **mrks** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:13 am

How about welding it and cleaning it up?

a shallower dishing would probably fit better

.032 is what I use for titanium vambraces.

mrks

[This message has been edited by mrks (edited 04-23-2002).]

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 7:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mrks:
How about welding it and cleaning it up?

a shallower dishing would probably fit better

.032 is what I use for titanium vambraces.

mrks

[This message has been edited by mrks (edited 04-23-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What stick would you recommend?

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:52 am

If you are going to weld it, use a high carbon wire. I'm not good enough with stick welder to weld thin sheet.

The other option is to start over. By the time you weld, grind, touch up and normalize the steel, it may be faster to just start over.

How often did you normalize the steel when dishing?

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Baron Arland the Bastard
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/rivetedmaille

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:20 am

I normalized it once.

Krag · Post by **Krag** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:56 am

Looking at the tear, I also would've asked if you normalized/annealed the steel first. The other thing that stands out are some of the tooling marks. I see a lot of small crescent moon divits in the steel. You can't do this with hardenable steel. You'll get localized stress risers prone to cracking every time. Likewise, when planishing try not to pinch the metal. You want a controlled bend, not a pinched "smear" of the metal. 4130 is chrome moly steel...low/medium carbon , but enough chrome and other stuff to full harden. Just like a wrench, it doesn't like to "move" much cold, even in the annealed state.

Your tear looks like a fatigue failure...did you planish/dish from inside/outside several times in that area? Even normalizing doesn't cure fatigue once you fracture a spot!

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Krag von Berghen
KragAxe Armoury

Member's Pics

[This message has been edited by Krag (edited 04-23-2002).]

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Krag:
Looking at the tear, I also would've asked if you normalized/annealed the steel first. The other thing that stands out are some of the tooling marks. I see a lot of small crescent moon divits in the steel. You can't do this with hardenable steel. You'll get localized stress risers prone to cracking every time. Likewise, when planishing try not to pinch the metal. You want a controlled bend, not a pinched "smear" of the metal. 4130 is chrome moly steel...low/medium carbon , but enough chrome and other stuff to full harden. Just like a wrench, it doesn't like to "move" much cold, even in the annealed state.

Your tear looks like a fatigue failure...did you planish/dish from inside/outside several times in that area? Even normalizing doesn't cure fatigue once you fracture a spot!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I think I did anneal it, but I'm not sure. What procedure would you guys recommend for annealing a peice of metal like this?

I was on the second dishing (sinking to make Sasha happy) pass when the tear occured. I was just getting ready to start planishing.

This stuff was a real pain to work. Before I "annealed" or did what I thought was annealing it, it took a freaking 3 lb sledge to move it at all.

Sinric · Post by **Sinric** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:48 pm

I think you would have much better luck if you used outside techniques (i.e. work the metal over a ball stake) instead of sinking it. I've made a number of vambraces like that out of 0.050" and 0.035" 1050 and never had to anneal the metal.

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:46 pm

If you have the capability of annealing (heating the metal past the critical temp and allowing to SLOWLY cool for hours/days) or normalizing (heating past the critical temp and allowing to cool in air) then you can't be far from being able to work the metal hot. I dont think the softening process is any different (other than the critical temp) for this alloy. You'll have to look up the critical temperature of 4130. I'm not sure what it is. The magnet test would probably work, too. Instead of allowing the metal to cool, work around the outside over a ball or mushroom stake. The metal will be much easier to move so it will be easier to control. It will be much less effort than wailing madly with a sledge hammer. Also check that you have rounded edges on your hammers. It looks like there are some deep hammer creases in a few areas which are a pain to take out and can cause cracks (or just blow through by themselves). Hot metal is also easier to mar.

Or, like mrks said, a shallower dishing form may support it well enough.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jacob:
If you have the capability of annealing (heating the metal past the critical temp and allowing to SLOWLY cool for hours/days) or normalizing (heating past the critical temp and allowing to cool in air) then you can't be far from being able to work the metal hot. I dont think the softening process is any different (other than the critical temp) for this alloy. You'll have to look up the critical temperature of 4130. I'm not sure what it is. The magnet test would probably work, too. Instead of allowing the metal to cool, work around the outside over a ball or mushroom stake. The metal will be much easier to move so it will be easier to control. It will be much less effort than wailing madly with a sledge hammer. Also check that you have rounded edges on your hammers. It looks like there are some deep hammer creases in a few areas which are a pain to take out and can cause cracks (or just blow through by themselves). Hot metal is also easier to mar.

Or, like mrks said, a shallower dishing form may support it well enough.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I wasn't wanting to work a new pattern, a new metal, and a new technique (hot working) all at the same time. Also, since I don't have a gas saver, hot working using the rosebud tip of my gas torch uses a LOT of fuel quickly. Additionally, at the time I was so worried about the thinness of the metal that I was afraid if I worked it hot I'd tear it for sure

The hammer marks are from using the ball-pein for the first couple flaring passes. for the second pass I used a raising hammer, but the damage had already been done, I just wasn't making it worse.

Also, when I tried to use the torch to anneal the metal, it was a very exciting process watching the metal twist and warp due to the heating of one part of the metal. I had to use many quick fast passes with the rosebud tip to slowly bring the whole thing up to temp together.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:27 pm

If you can get it - try 1050 instead. It really is easy to work.

If you want to work things hot you can use a big welding tip instead of the rosebud - I have both and have decided that I prefer the large welding tip - it still heats up a reasonable bit of the piece, but it doesn't feel like you are spraying all of your gas into the atmosphere.

Sharp edges on your tools will cause this. Over-thinning (for any reason) will cause this, and work-hardening will cause it. Any of these could be your problem.

A vambrace gets real shape - but it really should not need enough to crack the material. How hard was it when you started? When we buy 1050 it is annealled to dead soft. That makes is a lot nicer to deal with.

Wade

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by wcallen:
If you can get it - try 1050 instead. It really is easy to work.

If you want to work things hot you can use a big welding tip instead of the rosebud - I have both and have decided that I prefer the large welding tip - it still heats up a reasonable bit of the piece, but it doesn't feel like you are spraying all of your gas into the atmosphere.

Sharp edges on your tools will cause this. Over-thinning (for any reason) will cause this, and work-hardening will cause it. Any of these could be your problem.

A vambrace gets real shape - but it really should not need enough to crack the material. How hard was it when you started? When we buy 1050 it is annealled to dead soft. That makes is a lot nicer to deal with.

Wade<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was some of the springiest stuff I've ever dealt with. Bend it around in a 3" diamter circle, and it'd pop right back into shape.

I'm thinking that I just didn't get it annealed properly.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:41 pm

[This message has been edited by Jean Paul de Sens (edited 04-24-2002).]

Ulsted · Post by **Ulsted** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:57 pm

Hey JP,

Uh, I can pretty much guarantee you didn't get the metal annealed. Alexis buys his fully annealed. He got one shipment of normalized 4130, and several of us had a great time watching him wail away with a sledge and hardly make a dent

(and a few amazing ducks to avoid smacking himself with the hammer

). We use the normalized stuff to make pieces that don't require much forming, and we hit them as little as possible - using a roller, bending instead of dishing, etc. Most of the forming on all the 4130 is done with a rawhide mallet - much less finish work that way!

Oh, and the full annealed .032 can almost be formed with your hands - that's why I know you weren't working with annealed. To anneal, you're going to need that kiln: take the whole piece up to temperature, then let it cool slowly within the kiln.

Ulsted
(I'm working on a pair of guantlets from the normalized .032 4130)