I've been looking around at different posts about people making orders with companies based in India for riveted mail. As someone completely out of the loop, i now present the following dumb questions
1. What is the price list like, i.e. is it that much cheaper?
2. What is the contruction and shipping time like?
3. Are the rings and rivets quasi-authentic?
4. Who deals with these companies/ how does one order?
Riveted mail from india
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Thomas of Tadcaster
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Steve S.
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There are several companies now, such as Museum Replicas and many others that are carrying "riveted" maille imported from overseas. Most of it is 16GA, 3/8" ID, with only the ring ends flattened, and they are flattened before overlapping, which leaves a very distinct step-up at the overlap region. Further, they use round rivets. Here is what this maille looks like:
[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/competition/competition2.jpg[/img]
Both coifs and aventails are available from overseas. The execution of the garments themselves is pretty decent, my only complaint with the shirts is that the neck hole tends to be a bit large and it is usually not biased forwards on the shirt as it should be for a correct fit.
I developed a manufacturing technique which utilizes modern manufacturing tools and techniques in addition to hand techniques, yet produces, in my opinion, a much more authentic looking product.
Here is what an authentic riveted ring looks like:
And here is a Forth Armoury ring:
Our rings are a bit too mechanically precise, in my opinion, to be museum quality, but this is the trade-off for utilizing modern manufacturing techniques to make a product that most people can afford.
Our maille is made of 18GA wire with a 3/8" ID, and we flatten the entire ring - not just the overlap. We also flatten the rings after overlapping the ends, which crushes them into one another for a correct look and pleasing feel. Another feature that differentiates Forth Armoury maille is the wedge rivet:
[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/rings_and_rivets.jpg[/img]
Forth Armoury is, to my knowlege, the only mass-producing commercial supplier of riveted maille that utilizes the wedge rivet. Further, our shirts are tailored, with the neck holes tight and biased forwards for a more comfortable fit that is available from most commercially available maille. Of course, since our manufacturer is using techniques and tooling that we sent to them, we can exactly duplicate their processes, which allows us to provide seamless custom tailoring of our products.
Of course, we have exclusive distribution rights established with our manufacturer, and thus our style of maille is not available anywhere except through channels we authorize.
It is not a trivial undertaking to purchase from overseas manufacturers. Most of them have a minimum purhcase amount - $2000 or more. Further, the cost of the product as they sell it to you is only the tip of the iceburg. You have to pay shipping, which can be significant (say $300-$700 depending on the size of the shipment). Then there are customs fees (duty), and if your shipment is over a certain dollar value you have to hire a customs broker to handle your import for you. Then there are storage fees, courier fees, entry fees, and more. Basically if you want to get into the import business you should have $3000-$5000 in cash capital to get started.
For more on what makes Forth Armoury maille special please see:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/maille_styles/European_style.htm
Steve
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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.
[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/competition/competition2.jpg[/img]
Both coifs and aventails are available from overseas. The execution of the garments themselves is pretty decent, my only complaint with the shirts is that the neck hole tends to be a bit large and it is usually not biased forwards on the shirt as it should be for a correct fit.
I developed a manufacturing technique which utilizes modern manufacturing tools and techniques in addition to hand techniques, yet produces, in my opinion, a much more authentic looking product.
Here is what an authentic riveted ring looks like:
And here is a Forth Armoury ring:
Our rings are a bit too mechanically precise, in my opinion, to be museum quality, but this is the trade-off for utilizing modern manufacturing techniques to make a product that most people can afford.
Our maille is made of 18GA wire with a 3/8" ID, and we flatten the entire ring - not just the overlap. We also flatten the rings after overlapping the ends, which crushes them into one another for a correct look and pleasing feel. Another feature that differentiates Forth Armoury maille is the wedge rivet:
[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/rings_and_rivets.jpg[/img]
Forth Armoury is, to my knowlege, the only mass-producing commercial supplier of riveted maille that utilizes the wedge rivet. Further, our shirts are tailored, with the neck holes tight and biased forwards for a more comfortable fit that is available from most commercially available maille. Of course, since our manufacturer is using techniques and tooling that we sent to them, we can exactly duplicate their processes, which allows us to provide seamless custom tailoring of our products.
Of course, we have exclusive distribution rights established with our manufacturer, and thus our style of maille is not available anywhere except through channels we authorize.
It is not a trivial undertaking to purchase from overseas manufacturers. Most of them have a minimum purhcase amount - $2000 or more. Further, the cost of the product as they sell it to you is only the tip of the iceburg. You have to pay shipping, which can be significant (say $300-$700 depending on the size of the shipment). Then there are customs fees (duty), and if your shipment is over a certain dollar value you have to hire a customs broker to handle your import for you. Then there are storage fees, courier fees, entry fees, and more. Basically if you want to get into the import business you should have $3000-$5000 in cash capital to get started.
For more on what makes Forth Armoury maille special please see:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/maille_styles/European_style.htm
Steve
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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.
Steve, you're my hero: You're making a going business out of the differences between two-millimeter rivets.
The funny thing is that I'm right there with you. I would love to see chainmail, that most underrepresented and yet historically ubiquitous armour, more often on the playing field. And if it is historically accurate riveted, all the better.
Once I get out from under the cloud that my Beverly purchase precipitated (get it, get it?), your starter kit is next on my list of armour purchases.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
The funny thing is that I'm right there with you. I would love to see chainmail, that most underrepresented and yet historically ubiquitous armour, more often on the playing field. And if it is historically accurate riveted, all the better.
Once I get out from under the cloud that my Beverly purchase precipitated (get it, get it?), your starter kit is next on my list of armour purchases.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
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Gaston de Clermont
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- Location: Austin, Texas USA
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Steve does a great job making pretty darn accurate mail. However, ordering mail from India isn't as hard as he indicates.
To address the specific questions:
1. International Steelcrafts for example is selling me a long sleeve riveted stainless hauberk for $400. I was able to get their long sleeve riveted aluminum hauberks for $283. There are import taxes and dock fees which are tricky to predict before it gets to your country. My last order had dock fees and import tax of $40 for an order of $500 or so. On my order the shipping on the long sleeved stainless hauberk worked out to $75.74 USD. They've never bothered me about a minimum order size.
2. Depending on the item and the size of the order, I'd expect most stuff complete in about 4 months.
3. There are examples of the kind of rounded rivet heads they use. The majority of rivets used in the Middle Ages probably looked more like what Steve is doing. The step effect that Steve mentioned isn't dramatic unless you get up really close to it. They work in 3/8" and 5/16" mild, stainless, aluminum and brass
4. I've seen several merchants selling Indian maille at large wars. Occasionally you'll see some show up on E-bay, or you could order it through me (the only advantages being that I've done it before, and I can sometimes front capital for it), or you can e-mail Anuj Gupta at International Steelcrafts directly at intlags@sancharnet.in and ask him for a price list. Larger orders do get discounts, so getting a few people together is probably worth while.
Gaston
To address the specific questions:
1. International Steelcrafts for example is selling me a long sleeve riveted stainless hauberk for $400. I was able to get their long sleeve riveted aluminum hauberks for $283. There are import taxes and dock fees which are tricky to predict before it gets to your country. My last order had dock fees and import tax of $40 for an order of $500 or so. On my order the shipping on the long sleeved stainless hauberk worked out to $75.74 USD. They've never bothered me about a minimum order size.
2. Depending on the item and the size of the order, I'd expect most stuff complete in about 4 months.
3. There are examples of the kind of rounded rivet heads they use. The majority of rivets used in the Middle Ages probably looked more like what Steve is doing. The step effect that Steve mentioned isn't dramatic unless you get up really close to it. They work in 3/8" and 5/16" mild, stainless, aluminum and brass
4. I've seen several merchants selling Indian maille at large wars. Occasionally you'll see some show up on E-bay, or you could order it through me (the only advantages being that I've done it before, and I can sometimes front capital for it), or you can e-mail Anuj Gupta at International Steelcrafts directly at intlags@sancharnet.in and ask him for a price list. Larger orders do get discounts, so getting a few people together is probably worth while.
Gaston