Greetings!
I've recently joined the SCA, and finally made up my mind what i wanted for armor and ordered it last week. Of course, im going to have to strap it once it gets to me(supposedly 6-8 weeks) and i'm having trouble figuring out how many straps each piece is going to need or exactly where/how to place them. Suit(14 gauge stainless) consists of modified bascinet w/visor(has sort of a half face plate that has bars from nose/brow level to allow better vision), cherbourg segemented breast/backplate, full creased arms, 3/4 creased legs w/wrap plate, gorget, full creased articulated gauntlets, and spaulders. Im also planning to add a camail to the helm.
Can anyone give me some advice on how to strap it properly? Im planning to use leather, buckles and rivets for the straps, but in additon to not knowing how many straps each piece will need, im also a bit clueless on exactly what type of rivets i should use. I'd like to keep my strapping as close to "period" as i can, while using materials that i can pick up at any good leather crafting supplier, and i'd prefer not to use materials that will require me to buy a a bunch of specialized tools, though im willing to buy a small number(1-3) if i have to.
Also, my persona is a german mercenary officer, circa 1395,and i was wondering if anyone knows if the strapping was commonly decorated during this period, and if so, in what way?
SCA newbie seeking advice on strapping plate harness
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Chretien le Meunier
- Archive Member
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Ol' Mason-Dixon
Eddie-
Not sure about the German merc question, given the time and what-not I don't see why it could'nt, armour, well, given if one has (or had, back then) enough cash flow, would be a personalized thing, and people tend to like to make something thier own, I don't see why one could'nt use artistic liscence with thier armour. That being said however, something that was in period, a design or motif that would fit within the given region, go ahead and have fun.
As for the stapping- I would suggest an armour book of some sort, and I would give a reference, but I am not like a good many on here, and have'nt a rolodex memory, so can't list a reference. This will help you eliminate a million holes drilled into your armour, by a process of what works, and what does'nt. Look at modern sports gear, while horrible armour, the ergonomics of it, where the have thier strapping placed, holding to the body, will help you pinpoint where to place yours. An example of this is hockey hose and garter set-up.
Harnessing legs armour is the same area, or at least really close. The top center of the thigh piece, and the point of the hip, both hang vertical. Now mind you the strapping for the top front of your thigh is shorter than the one on the point of the hip. The way the armour curves around the leg, and the curve and movement of ones body dictates that. By hanging straps off the belt, and having several length holes, will help greatly in assisting. I would first hang the strap for the top center for the thigh armour, as this is the easy one, and then you also have some support and a guideline, to see how long you hip point strap needs to be. Long winded, but I hope this gives you some idea of how to hang the legs, or at least start to see how it could be done. (one method)
As far as the rest of the leg, I have a strap from my wrap plate to inner thigh, roughly centered on the wrap plate, and the buckle on the inner thigh, corresponding to that. My legs are 3/4, or archer kneed, so I also have a strap on the demi-greive, or the last, and longer knee lame. I made my own greives, and have a strap, that goes up behind my knee (not a buckle, just the leather), one just above the ankle, and one down under the instep of my boot, like a stirup.
Body and arms are done a myriad of ways, and mine are done in a psudo-period fashion (as are probably my legs) and won't bore you with details of that. But hope this gives you some idea, or help.
You should'nt need alot of tools, a leather hole punch, an awl, or hell, use a drill.
A hammer, some rivets, something to set the rivets, you can buy one, or if you don't mind the heads being flat, a peice of steel dowel will do. Being new, I would suggest rapid rivets (as well as pre-cut leather stapping), available at a Tandy, Leather Factory, or some craft store. I would also encourage you to practice setting a few rivets to develop a mehtod and hand. Nothing more aggivating then trying to remove your first rivet on your shiney new armour.
If you want the real deal for rivets, this takes more time and skill, but worth the look, a copper saddle makers rivet (they come with the washer ends as well, or roofing nails work as well, simply snip to desired length and peen over. Again though, use time and caution, as they look great when done correctly, but don't want to practive mastering these on a finished peice.
The (or at least mine) general rule is, you will need a washer if you are riveting something, that does'nt have a metal surface to peen you end on. For ex: two peices of leather together, or a rivet first through metal, then through leather, the end your peening, does'nt have a surface to peen on. The hammer will just smash up the leather, and prolly bend your rivet, and generaly be unpleasant to do, with an equally unpleasant look when your done. This is oppossed to this way:
When you go through leather, then through steel, you have a surface in which you can peen, as the steel of the armour assists with this. Always 'member, no steel surface? Then slap a washer on that mug.
Welcome to the SCA, have fun, and do your own thing, don't let anyone piss on your fun parade. Wonderful to see a new person (loathe the word newbie) take an interest in period armour and technique. Sorry no links, but I am sure other gents here can help with that, and on that, welcome to the AA, much to learn here, from a great group. I am far from the end all be all, and far from the most knowledgable, but thought I'd share what I know.
Final thing- where are you ordering a full suit from, and getting it in such a short time frame? There are few armouries that make such a claim? From Icefalcon? (only one that comes to mind at the top of my head)
That is, of you don't mind me asking.
And where are you located at, out of sheer curiosity.
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"Sic splendide haec ardet"
Tristan Graethorne,
Masion Gris'epine,
Shire of Owls Reste, Southern Region,
Great Kingdom of the East
Not sure about the German merc question, given the time and what-not I don't see why it could'nt, armour, well, given if one has (or had, back then) enough cash flow, would be a personalized thing, and people tend to like to make something thier own, I don't see why one could'nt use artistic liscence with thier armour. That being said however, something that was in period, a design or motif that would fit within the given region, go ahead and have fun.
As for the stapping- I would suggest an armour book of some sort, and I would give a reference, but I am not like a good many on here, and have'nt a rolodex memory, so can't list a reference. This will help you eliminate a million holes drilled into your armour, by a process of what works, and what does'nt. Look at modern sports gear, while horrible armour, the ergonomics of it, where the have thier strapping placed, holding to the body, will help you pinpoint where to place yours. An example of this is hockey hose and garter set-up.
Harnessing legs armour is the same area, or at least really close. The top center of the thigh piece, and the point of the hip, both hang vertical. Now mind you the strapping for the top front of your thigh is shorter than the one on the point of the hip. The way the armour curves around the leg, and the curve and movement of ones body dictates that. By hanging straps off the belt, and having several length holes, will help greatly in assisting. I would first hang the strap for the top center for the thigh armour, as this is the easy one, and then you also have some support and a guideline, to see how long you hip point strap needs to be. Long winded, but I hope this gives you some idea of how to hang the legs, or at least start to see how it could be done. (one method)
As far as the rest of the leg, I have a strap from my wrap plate to inner thigh, roughly centered on the wrap plate, and the buckle on the inner thigh, corresponding to that. My legs are 3/4, or archer kneed, so I also have a strap on the demi-greive, or the last, and longer knee lame. I made my own greives, and have a strap, that goes up behind my knee (not a buckle, just the leather), one just above the ankle, and one down under the instep of my boot, like a stirup.
Body and arms are done a myriad of ways, and mine are done in a psudo-period fashion (as are probably my legs) and won't bore you with details of that. But hope this gives you some idea, or help.
You should'nt need alot of tools, a leather hole punch, an awl, or hell, use a drill.
A hammer, some rivets, something to set the rivets, you can buy one, or if you don't mind the heads being flat, a peice of steel dowel will do. Being new, I would suggest rapid rivets (as well as pre-cut leather stapping), available at a Tandy, Leather Factory, or some craft store. I would also encourage you to practice setting a few rivets to develop a mehtod and hand. Nothing more aggivating then trying to remove your first rivet on your shiney new armour.
If you want the real deal for rivets, this takes more time and skill, but worth the look, a copper saddle makers rivet (they come with the washer ends as well, or roofing nails work as well, simply snip to desired length and peen over. Again though, use time and caution, as they look great when done correctly, but don't want to practive mastering these on a finished peice.
The (or at least mine) general rule is, you will need a washer if you are riveting something, that does'nt have a metal surface to peen you end on. For ex: two peices of leather together, or a rivet first through metal, then through leather, the end your peening, does'nt have a surface to peen on. The hammer will just smash up the leather, and prolly bend your rivet, and generaly be unpleasant to do, with an equally unpleasant look when your done. This is oppossed to this way:
When you go through leather, then through steel, you have a surface in which you can peen, as the steel of the armour assists with this. Always 'member, no steel surface? Then slap a washer on that mug.
Welcome to the SCA, have fun, and do your own thing, don't let anyone piss on your fun parade. Wonderful to see a new person (loathe the word newbie) take an interest in period armour and technique. Sorry no links, but I am sure other gents here can help with that, and on that, welcome to the AA, much to learn here, from a great group. I am far from the end all be all, and far from the most knowledgable, but thought I'd share what I know.
Final thing- where are you ordering a full suit from, and getting it in such a short time frame? There are few armouries that make such a claim? From Icefalcon? (only one that comes to mind at the top of my head)
That is, of you don't mind me asking.
And where are you located at, out of sheer curiosity.
------------------
"Sic splendide haec ardet"
Tristan Graethorne,
Masion Gris'epine,
Shire of Owls Reste, Southern Region,
Great Kingdom of the East
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Guest
Im getting it from wyndsyngers wargear. I found his shop while searching ebay, and after reading his customer feedback and some email discussions i went with him. Stuff he offers isn't really highly decorative and doesnt come all shined and polished, but i already put off joining the SCA for several years becuase i couldnt afford armor. Now that i can, i dont want to have to wait a year to actually get it made. I figure that i can always upgrade equipment once i have my basic suit, and since im never going to be the type to fight in plastic it seemed to make sense to get an inexpensive(relatively) steel suit right from the start. I know i'm taking a chance using an ebay seller, but after contacting Christian Fletcher and Mandrake Armories and seeing what sort of waiting list they had i figured i didn't have many other options.
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Guest
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freiman the minstrel
- Archive Member
- Posts: 9271
- Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Oberbibrach, Bavaria
I can tell you one or two things I do, though I am famous for music, not fighting or armoring.
If you put the straps holding the legs up (to the belt) on the front of the leg, it can break more readily when you go to your knees. if you put it to the side of the leg (roughly where the seam of a pair of jeans is) this tendency will be lessened.
I don't know how period it is, but I made a set of "combat suspenders" to carry the weight of my knees (partially) with my shoulders. this helps quite a bit with the longer battles.
Someone else on this archive, who knows more than me, says arm harness will not function properly without a strap directly across the inside of the elbow. He also say that your armor will look, feel and fight better if you make the proper cloth underarmor to wear with it. A good gambeson and armong cap are probably essential. I believe him.
While we are on the subject of arming caps, I have discovered that there is a species of reinactor that will automatically notice a good arming cap, rather than blue foam. I actually had one person say "why don't you make yourself a good arming cap and rip that blue sh*t out of your helm." The arming cap is period, and I hear it works better, thought I have not gotten around to making one yet.
Oh, yeah, about the straps, you will find that replacing straps becomes a chore very quickly. I would not reccomend decorating straps. Depending on where you are and what kind of care you take of your gear, You may be replacing at least one strap every time you fight. I know some people who do.
And I really like the copper rivets. If you use roofing nails, make sure there isn't a bit of mold flash making a sharp line underneath the head, as this can cut through the strap, when you don't want it to. thirty second with a file fixes it.
Hope that helps. If you wanted to let the archive know about your experiences learning about your kit, I am sure that at least some of us would love regular status reports.
And since I have you here, please don't ever tap a hammer directly on the face of an anvil. If the face of the anvil gets a tiny dent, the anvil is instantly GREATLY diminished in usefullness. Blacksmiths do it in the movies all the time. Newbies usually only do it once. You probably knew that part already.
If you put the straps holding the legs up (to the belt) on the front of the leg, it can break more readily when you go to your knees. if you put it to the side of the leg (roughly where the seam of a pair of jeans is) this tendency will be lessened.
I don't know how period it is, but I made a set of "combat suspenders" to carry the weight of my knees (partially) with my shoulders. this helps quite a bit with the longer battles.
Someone else on this archive, who knows more than me, says arm harness will not function properly without a strap directly across the inside of the elbow. He also say that your armor will look, feel and fight better if you make the proper cloth underarmor to wear with it. A good gambeson and armong cap are probably essential. I believe him.
While we are on the subject of arming caps, I have discovered that there is a species of reinactor that will automatically notice a good arming cap, rather than blue foam. I actually had one person say "why don't you make yourself a good arming cap and rip that blue sh*t out of your helm." The arming cap is period, and I hear it works better, thought I have not gotten around to making one yet.
Oh, yeah, about the straps, you will find that replacing straps becomes a chore very quickly. I would not reccomend decorating straps. Depending on where you are and what kind of care you take of your gear, You may be replacing at least one strap every time you fight. I know some people who do.
And I really like the copper rivets. If you use roofing nails, make sure there isn't a bit of mold flash making a sharp line underneath the head, as this can cut through the strap, when you don't want it to. thirty second with a file fixes it.
Hope that helps. If you wanted to let the archive know about your experiences learning about your kit, I am sure that at least some of us would love regular status reports.
And since I have you here, please don't ever tap a hammer directly on the face of an anvil. If the face of the anvil gets a tiny dent, the anvil is instantly GREATLY diminished in usefullness. Blacksmiths do it in the movies all the time. Newbies usually only do it once. You probably knew that part already.
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Guest
Freiman, thanks for the advice, i really appreciate it. Your name sort of reminded me that the SCA is more then combat though. Are there very many musical types in the SCA? Reason i ask is that ive got about 13 years of classical viola instruction under my belt, and even though i haven't played regularly for a few years it wouldnt take me all that many hours of practice to get my fingers and bowing back up to speed. I've also got a bowed psaltry that i play around with from time to time, and i would love the opportunity to amuse someone besides myself with it.
Hi
here are a few old pictures of non period leg hanging http://tiarmour.com/Index%20help.htm
period seemed to involve alot of arming points. my shoulders have arming points and work very well.
I focus mostly on high performance SCA armour that looks like period stuff so maybe someone more knowlegable will post a few pictures.
I will post some of my breastplate later on.
mrks
here are a few old pictures of non period leg hanging http://tiarmour.com/Index%20help.htm
period seemed to involve alot of arming points. my shoulders have arming points and work very well.
I focus mostly on high performance SCA armour that looks like period stuff so maybe someone more knowlegable will post a few pictures.
I will post some of my breastplate later on.
mrks
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freiman the minstrel
- Archive Member
- Posts: 9271
- Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Oberbibrach, Bavaria
are there many musical types in the SCA?
Well, that could easily be the subject of much debate. The easy answer is yes.
there are a great many folks who play music of greatly varying quality at SCA events. Most are hobbyests who have never had pretentions of being a semi pro musican. Many of them have no pretentions of practicing.
By all means bring your psaltry. If you are looking for Music to play there are some sources in your local library system that will help. Irish fiddle tunes are always popular, but they are (generally) not the least bit period. There are some exceptions.
One popular method of obtaining instrumental music during the SCA period was entabulation. Entabulation is the transcription of vocal music to instrumental music. Most popular madrigals are period, and the entabulation of them can be rewarding. do the cantus on one verse, the quintus on another, ect.
Fredrick Noad was a top level guitar teacher in the sixties, and he collected a great deal of literature from the period. Look for his books, they can usually be ILL'ed at the library.
I might caution you about bringing your viola to events. if it is precious to you, find a student viola second hand. I had a scary moment a few years ago when somebody said to me, "you can probably get off the hill just fine, but can you do it without getting your guitar smashed?" there are some *ssh*les at SCA events. Not many, but some, and they have a nasty habit of turning up at the wrong time. In addition, conditions at SCA events are frequently "inclement". there are events with a little drizzle, or muddy events, or freezing cold events, or very hot dusty events. these are fine for humans, but not really good for fine instruments.
please don't do my pet peeves. Please never force me to listen to a piece more than fifteen minutes long, especially if you have to make me wait while you look it up in your songbook. if it's not good enough for you to remember it, it is probably not good enough to force your audience to listen to it.
Well, that could easily be the subject of much debate. The easy answer is yes.
there are a great many folks who play music of greatly varying quality at SCA events. Most are hobbyests who have never had pretentions of being a semi pro musican. Many of them have no pretentions of practicing.
By all means bring your psaltry. If you are looking for Music to play there are some sources in your local library system that will help. Irish fiddle tunes are always popular, but they are (generally) not the least bit period. There are some exceptions.
One popular method of obtaining instrumental music during the SCA period was entabulation. Entabulation is the transcription of vocal music to instrumental music. Most popular madrigals are period, and the entabulation of them can be rewarding. do the cantus on one verse, the quintus on another, ect.
Fredrick Noad was a top level guitar teacher in the sixties, and he collected a great deal of literature from the period. Look for his books, they can usually be ILL'ed at the library.
I might caution you about bringing your viola to events. if it is precious to you, find a student viola second hand. I had a scary moment a few years ago when somebody said to me, "you can probably get off the hill just fine, but can you do it without getting your guitar smashed?" there are some *ssh*les at SCA events. Not many, but some, and they have a nasty habit of turning up at the wrong time. In addition, conditions at SCA events are frequently "inclement". there are events with a little drizzle, or muddy events, or freezing cold events, or very hot dusty events. these are fine for humans, but not really good for fine instruments.
please don't do my pet peeves. Please never force me to listen to a piece more than fifteen minutes long, especially if you have to make me wait while you look it up in your songbook. if it's not good enough for you to remember it, it is probably not good enough to force your audience to listen to it.