13thc SCA gauntlets, Looking for ideas and thoughts on this solution.
I have made some SCA gauntlets that I hope to soon cover with riveted mail mittens. What I am asking for is opinions, ideas, and criticism. I have talked to a lot of frustrated people out there who have also faced the 13c dilemma of how to have hand protection and not look like you have hands from a Barney costume (covered hockey gloves for example).
I have tried to work from history here, but the problems are, how to prevent blunt force trauma, without metal plates, and whale bone.
The best thing I can come up with is molded plastic. Sewn in between two layers of quilting, it will not be seen. It is washable, and will look like the padding historically worn. The ones that I have made so far, look just like quilting. You can not see the plastic shape, even up close. They are also not bulky. So this I am happy with. I rejected metal because it (with the maille) would weigh a ton, and rust and cut inside the quilting. Horn can not be shaped right and is to thin to protect for SCA use. Leather worries me, as it required very thick padding to work, gets soft when wet. Aluminum is no more historical than plastic, and requires a lot more work to shape, It is also no safer and since it’s not seen, I can see no reason to make it harder than it needs to be to gain no historical advantage.
So, I am open to more Ideas on what to do.
------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
13thc SCA gauntlets
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David deKunstenaar
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Xanthier
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Honestly... And mind you I have little knowledge of the period you are looking at, this is just my opinion.
It seams like you've got all your bases covered. Your plastic is completely hidden, you're covering it with mail after covering it with period designed fabric. There is no way anyone can say you're doing this for "sport" or wieght advantages.
Sounds like they should work well. Please post some pics of the finished project.
It seams like you've got all your bases covered. Your plastic is completely hidden, you're covering it with mail after covering it with period designed fabric. There is no way anyone can say you're doing this for "sport" or wieght advantages.
Sounds like they should work well. Please post some pics of the finished project.
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David deKunstenaar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xanthier:
Please post some pics of the finished project.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have the equipment (digital camera and scanner) to do this, I just don't know how. I keep wanting to make a web page of the old photos but I don't know how.
Arti
Please post some pics of the finished project.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have the equipment (digital camera and scanner) to do this, I just don't know how. I keep wanting to make a web page of the old photos but I don't know how.
Arti
Id be interested in your construction methods. ive seen way too many 13th C people go the hockey glove route, or worse still - basket hilts - eew.
For myself, I went a different way and created 15thC milanese style mitten gaunts, nobody has ever complained about them, and i occasionaly get complements on the periodness of my gear. just shows how much people know
but i would like another option, if there is one.
For myself, I went a different way and created 15thC milanese style mitten gaunts, nobody has ever complained about them, and i occasionaly get complements on the periodness of my gear. just shows how much people know
but i would like another option, if there is one.
Ok, I've actually got questions for you.
First, what type of plastic? Have you experimented with different kinds? Are you hot molding kydex, or something else?
I've thought a while about searching for some plastic with a low melting point, like craft plastic, but high enough that a good pennsic workout won't put my hands in danger.
Second, are you articulating the plastic, or are you doing just a one piece clamshell thing to cover all fingers?
Third, are you going to cover the plastic/ quilting with maille? I would think that would look pretty sharp.
HELMUT
First, what type of plastic? Have you experimented with different kinds? Are you hot molding kydex, or something else?
I've thought a while about searching for some plastic with a low melting point, like craft plastic, but high enough that a good pennsic workout won't put my hands in danger.
Second, are you articulating the plastic, or are you doing just a one piece clamshell thing to cover all fingers?
Third, are you going to cover the plastic/ quilting with maille? I would think that would look pretty sharp.
HELMUT
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David deKunstenaar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by schreiber:
<B>Ok, I've actually got questions for you.
First, what type of plastic? Have you experimented with different kinds? Are you hot molding kydex, or something else?
I've thought a while about searching for some plastic with a low melting point, like craft plastic, but high enough that a good pennsic workout won't put my hands in danger.
Second, are you articulating the plastic, or are you doing just a one piece clamshell thing to cover all fingers?
Third, are you going to cover the plastic/ quilting with maille? I would think that would look pretty sharp.
HELMUT</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The plastic I used is white, and came from a chemical barrel. Looks like the kind that they use at a carwash. but I can not be sure, it was given to me without a label. It turns clear and can be streatched and molded at around 350 F. I used pot holders to handle it, molded it in the oven over some metal forms. When I pulled it out of the oven I shaped it with the pot holders and then put it in the sink full of cold water when I got what i wanted. (Turns opaque white again, and with the rust from the forms it looks like bones. It shrinks up so you have to do a lot of hot molding with the pot holders. I then trimmed them with a dremil. Articulating... yes and no... no rivits. The two quilted pices form pockets that I sew closed. the pices wrap over to make "contact" with the weapon, but are padded from the inside layer of quilitng.
I have some Egg gauntlets, that would work to, and I may use them now that I have what I like. Does anyone have any ideas what to use instead of plastic?
It is kind of like sewing two potholders together. I sewed them into linear channels that run with the fingers, because that is what the illuminations I looked at did. I do not sew acrossthe entire thing to hold the plates in place, rather I tacked them down in the channels that already existed to help keep that "it aint nothing but padding look".
I am not sure how I am going to do the mail. I am leaning tward attaching the mail to the sleeves, with a leather palm, and then sliding the padding into them when I go to fight. This way I can let the mail hang the way it is suppose to, and wash the padding in the washer and dryer like the rest of the gambeson. This first pair I have sewn onto a glove, but I think the next ones I'll just put in straps. the palm of the mail should be enough.
The mail is comming from the skirt that is slavaged from the coif that is on its way with my shirt of mail. I plan on attaching the "hood" part of the coif to the shirt. If the sleeves are not long enough, then I'll have to deal with that when the time comes.
------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
[This message has been edited by David deKunstenaar (edited 05-07-2002).]
<B>Ok, I've actually got questions for you.
First, what type of plastic? Have you experimented with different kinds? Are you hot molding kydex, or something else?
I've thought a while about searching for some plastic with a low melting point, like craft plastic, but high enough that a good pennsic workout won't put my hands in danger.
Second, are you articulating the plastic, or are you doing just a one piece clamshell thing to cover all fingers?
Third, are you going to cover the plastic/ quilting with maille? I would think that would look pretty sharp.
HELMUT</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The plastic I used is white, and came from a chemical barrel. Looks like the kind that they use at a carwash. but I can not be sure, it was given to me without a label. It turns clear and can be streatched and molded at around 350 F. I used pot holders to handle it, molded it in the oven over some metal forms. When I pulled it out of the oven I shaped it with the pot holders and then put it in the sink full of cold water when I got what i wanted. (Turns opaque white again, and with the rust from the forms it looks like bones. It shrinks up so you have to do a lot of hot molding with the pot holders. I then trimmed them with a dremil. Articulating... yes and no... no rivits. The two quilted pices form pockets that I sew closed. the pices wrap over to make "contact" with the weapon, but are padded from the inside layer of quilitng.
I have some Egg gauntlets, that would work to, and I may use them now that I have what I like. Does anyone have any ideas what to use instead of plastic?
It is kind of like sewing two potholders together. I sewed them into linear channels that run with the fingers, because that is what the illuminations I looked at did. I do not sew acrossthe entire thing to hold the plates in place, rather I tacked them down in the channels that already existed to help keep that "it aint nothing but padding look".
I am not sure how I am going to do the mail. I am leaning tward attaching the mail to the sleeves, with a leather palm, and then sliding the padding into them when I go to fight. This way I can let the mail hang the way it is suppose to, and wash the padding in the washer and dryer like the rest of the gambeson. This first pair I have sewn onto a glove, but I think the next ones I'll just put in straps. the palm of the mail should be enough.
The mail is comming from the skirt that is slavaged from the coif that is on its way with my shirt of mail. I plan on attaching the "hood" part of the coif to the shirt. If the sleeves are not long enough, then I'll have to deal with that when the time comes.
------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
[This message has been edited by David deKunstenaar (edited 05-07-2002).]
I think there are really only three viable options for this dilemma:
1. Cover a paded gauntlet with mail. The mail is almost decorative in this application. This means the underlying mitten must protect at least as well as a hockey glove, so really thick cotton padding, or thinner closed cell foam has to be used. You will end up with a large, bulky gauntlet. There was an article on how to make a mail covered hockey glove done about 20 years ago, but their appearance hasn't improved any since then.
2. A padded mitten with some reinforcement hidden inside. (In fact hockey gloves usually use a hard plate over the wrist.) The Tickhill Psalter from the ealy 14th century shows mittens with a running bond (brick) pattern on the surface. Some thick padding with plastic plates to simulate whalebone may be a decent aproximation, if the protective level is sufficient. This sounds like the approach you are taking.
3. Finally, one could make scale mittens, like those shown in the Life and Miracles of St. Denis of 1317. I used to use a scale mitten, and found it adequate enough. Unfortunately, I used a "two-hole" scale pattern and sewed it to the padded mitten. One scale cut or frayed through some thread and was driven into my finger. A minor injury which could have been avoided with either a more accurate stitching method, or the use of horn, leather, or plastic scales. I disagree that horn is too thin, or that leather is unsuitable. Horn can be shaped into a spoon shape, and leather or rawhide can be hardened and sealed to prevent absorbtion of sweat or water. I still think that a 20g. steel scale would also be adequate with proper attachment methods over a padded base.
I made a pattern on my own, but the mittens shown at the Kongshirden site would be a good base. http://steel.laiv.org/kjertesveinene/sikkehet/vott/index.html
I think that either mail covered gauntlets or steel scales do add some punch to your blows because of the added weight, but it's probably one of these options or a basket on the sword for SCA purposes.
1. Cover a paded gauntlet with mail. The mail is almost decorative in this application. This means the underlying mitten must protect at least as well as a hockey glove, so really thick cotton padding, or thinner closed cell foam has to be used. You will end up with a large, bulky gauntlet. There was an article on how to make a mail covered hockey glove done about 20 years ago, but their appearance hasn't improved any since then.
2. A padded mitten with some reinforcement hidden inside. (In fact hockey gloves usually use a hard plate over the wrist.) The Tickhill Psalter from the ealy 14th century shows mittens with a running bond (brick) pattern on the surface. Some thick padding with plastic plates to simulate whalebone may be a decent aproximation, if the protective level is sufficient. This sounds like the approach you are taking.
3. Finally, one could make scale mittens, like those shown in the Life and Miracles of St. Denis of 1317. I used to use a scale mitten, and found it adequate enough. Unfortunately, I used a "two-hole" scale pattern and sewed it to the padded mitten. One scale cut or frayed through some thread and was driven into my finger. A minor injury which could have been avoided with either a more accurate stitching method, or the use of horn, leather, or plastic scales. I disagree that horn is too thin, or that leather is unsuitable. Horn can be shaped into a spoon shape, and leather or rawhide can be hardened and sealed to prevent absorbtion of sweat or water. I still think that a 20g. steel scale would also be adequate with proper attachment methods over a padded base.
I made a pattern on my own, but the mittens shown at the Kongshirden site would be a good base. http://steel.laiv.org/kjertesveinene/sikkehet/vott/index.html
I think that either mail covered gauntlets or steel scales do add some punch to your blows because of the added weight, but it's probably one of these options or a basket on the sword for SCA purposes.
How about using titanium for the plates instead of plastic.
advantages:
can contact cement fabric or leather to it.
lightweight
doesnt rust
can be heat formed with a blow torch
very high strength.
disadvantages:
could be difficult to work depending on pattern.
expensive but worth it.
mrks
mrkshh@tiarmour.com
[This message has been edited by mrks (edited 05-08-2002).]
advantages:
can contact cement fabric or leather to it.
lightweight
doesnt rust
can be heat formed with a blow torch
very high strength.
disadvantages:
could be difficult to work depending on pattern.
expensive but worth it.
mrks
mrkshh@tiarmour.com
[This message has been edited by mrks (edited 05-08-2002).]
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David deKunstenaar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mrks:
<B>How about using titanium for the plates instead of plastic.
).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For plates on the outs side, I am sure that this would be fine. What I am looking to make is maille covered however. I want to make maille mittens conected to the sleeve. If you are talking about inside the quilting, then since this material is no more period than plastic, especially for this application, I don't see that you have gained anything. Actually, I am afraid that metal plates would cut through the cloth, but I can not back that up. I know that metal plates are sewn into a CoP all the time with no problem. I just think that the hand bends and flexes more, and the this will wear very fast.
How do you shape horn?
Sir Rhys, Bascot, I would love to have your input. I am no more infavor of sports armor for myself than you, still safety is important. Certainly, the 13th c can not be seen as out of period for the middle ages, so it is not early period to dodge wearing armor. Would you say that useing period material in a non-period way is more accurate than than a material that appoximates the weight and shape of what was used, when it is hidden anyway?
------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
<B>How about using titanium for the plates instead of plastic.
).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For plates on the outs side, I am sure that this would be fine. What I am looking to make is maille covered however. I want to make maille mittens conected to the sleeve. If you are talking about inside the quilting, then since this material is no more period than plastic, especially for this application, I don't see that you have gained anything. Actually, I am afraid that metal plates would cut through the cloth, but I can not back that up. I know that metal plates are sewn into a CoP all the time with no problem. I just think that the hand bends and flexes more, and the this will wear very fast.
How do you shape horn?
Sir Rhys, Bascot, I would love to have your input. I am no more infavor of sports armor for myself than you, still safety is important. Certainly, the 13th c can not be seen as out of period for the middle ages, so it is not early period to dodge wearing armor.
Would you say that useing period material in a non-period way is more accurate than than a material that appoximates the weight and shape of what was used, when it is hidden anyway?------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
While the options I gave would work well for the last two decades of the 13th century, I now understand that you want the more traditional mail mufflers.
I have two thoughts on this subject. First, I have noticed that effigies and art which show the mufflers thrown off the hand show bare hands AND the mail pattern on the inside of the muffler. This would seem to indicate that a seperate glove or gauntlet was worn in conjunction with the gambeson and hauberk with mail mittens attached. Second, the statue of St. Maurice in Magdeburg and some source like the Bon Roi Alexandre show rather thick sleeves and mufflers, indicating a rather thick padding. Leather covered hockey gloves are a bare minimum. A thickly padded mitten covered in mail would likely be 'eguivalent', especially if the cuff overlapped the gambeson sleeve, givin a double layer over the wrist. I don't know that I would reccommend such an arrangement, but it might be 'legal'.
Years back we had some people stuffing cuisses with garden hose. I personally thought this approach was incorrect, but someone may have tried it in the application you mentioned?
I have two thoughts on this subject. First, I have noticed that effigies and art which show the mufflers thrown off the hand show bare hands AND the mail pattern on the inside of the muffler. This would seem to indicate that a seperate glove or gauntlet was worn in conjunction with the gambeson and hauberk with mail mittens attached. Second, the statue of St. Maurice in Magdeburg and some source like the Bon Roi Alexandre show rather thick sleeves and mufflers, indicating a rather thick padding. Leather covered hockey gloves are a bare minimum. A thickly padded mitten covered in mail would likely be 'eguivalent', especially if the cuff overlapped the gambeson sleeve, givin a double layer over the wrist. I don't know that I would reccommend such an arrangement, but it might be 'legal'.
Years back we had some people stuffing cuisses with garden hose. I personally thought this approach was incorrect, but someone may have tried it in the application you mentioned?
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Gaston de Clermont
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I had a little trouble with Ernst's link. These variations worked for me, and they're worth checking out:
http://steel.laiv.org/kjertesveinene/sikkerhet/index.html
http://steel.laiv.org/kjertesveinene/sikkerhet/vott/index.html
I'm looking forward to the English translation of the page, but these guys have some good patterns and resources already.
Gaston de Clermont
http://steel.laiv.org/kjertesveinene/sikkerhet/index.html
http://steel.laiv.org/kjertesveinene/sikkerhet/vott/index.html
I'm looking forward to the English translation of the page, but these guys have some good patterns and resources already.
Gaston de Clermont
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ernst:
<B> 3. Finally, one could make scale mittens, like those shown in the Life and Miracles of St. Denis of 1317. I used to use a scale mitten, and found it adequate enough. Unfortunately, I used a "two-hole" scale pattern and sewed it to the padded mitten. One scale cut or frayed through some thread and was driven into my finger. A minor injury which could have been avoided with either a more accurate stitching method, or the use of horn, leather, or plastic scales. I disagree that horn is too thin, or that leather is unsuitable. Horn can be shaped into a spoon shape, and leather or rawhide can be hardened and sealed to prevent absorbtion of sweat or water. I still think that a 20g. steel scale would also be adequate with proper attachment methods over a padded base.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How would you go about making a scale mitten? Could you post or email some pictures from the Life and Miracles of St. Denis of 1317 or your reproductions?
<B> 3. Finally, one could make scale mittens, like those shown in the Life and Miracles of St. Denis of 1317. I used to use a scale mitten, and found it adequate enough. Unfortunately, I used a "two-hole" scale pattern and sewed it to the padded mitten. One scale cut or frayed through some thread and was driven into my finger. A minor injury which could have been avoided with either a more accurate stitching method, or the use of horn, leather, or plastic scales. I disagree that horn is too thin, or that leather is unsuitable. Horn can be shaped into a spoon shape, and leather or rawhide can be hardened and sealed to prevent absorbtion of sweat or water. I still think that a 20g. steel scale would also be adequate with proper attachment methods over a padded base.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How would you go about making a scale mitten? Could you post or email some pictures from the Life and Miracles of St. Denis of 1317 or your reproductions?
Clermont,
Thanks for the correct link. It loks like I missed a letter with the wireless keyboard.
I will be glad to get some scans from the St. Denis sent out. I know Blair has a line drawing, as well as Nicolle. The manuscript shows a rather square ended scale, for whatever that's worth.
I'm not even sure if I still have the scale gauntlet I made or not. (I foolishly or not only made the right hand.) I recall throwing it in an armor bucket after it bit me some years ago, but being somewhat of a pack rat, I may still have it. If so, I'll try to get a digital picture or scan -- probably the pic, as it was made from mild steel scales, and I doubt I want it on the scanner window.
I made the mitten pattern with a separate cuff, which I didn't pad, presuming the gambeson sleeve to be adequate. I was never proven wrong on this, but would probably err on the safer side and pad the cuff today. If you use the Kongsirden pattern, cut two tops and one bottom. Place your padding between the two tops, and tack it in place. I recall using some 1/4" closed cell foam in my attempt. I think it was a typewriter mat or some such thing. Today, I would use compessed cotton. After padding the top, sew the top and bottom together and turn them to put the hem inside. I found it useful to tack the top and palm together between at least one pair of fingers. This is slightly less comfortable, but seemed to keep the mitten from rolling around the hand.
Next, sew the scale onto the top of the glove and cuff. You may want scales all the way around the cuff, but I felt the gambeson and mail sleeve were adequate. This should be done with small scales; I used 1" x 1.5". I would suggest looking at some historic scales on Norman's site, from Thordemann, or from Robinson's "Imperial Rome" for ideas. To sew the scale to the padded top, my wife used waxed linen thread from Tandy and a curved needle. I tried sewing a few rows, but the expert women are much faster at this. Start at the cuff, and work toward the fingertips. I made sure the vertical overlap was even, but don't worry with tying to get the rows offset. Simply cover the top of the hand as best you can. The scales over the thumb (two wide) need some curvature. At the fingertips and the end of the thumb, you may have to cut out some specially shaped scales to best cover this area. As long as these special plates cover the stitching of the row below, they should be good. You could even use a "cap" of 6oz. leather on the fingertips.
I don't recall this being a technically difficult piece to construct, my wife and I completeing it from concept to finish in two evenings. Looking back on it, I think I might should have used leather or rawhide instead of steel. Certainly I would opt for stainless steel lighter than 18g. and a more historically correct hole and stitching pattern. Otherwise, I was more satisfied with the gauntlet than my leather hockey gloves, primarly due to the decreased bulk and better control. I think I would have sacrificed the extra protection of a steel mitten for the appearance if it hadn't bit me. Which was my fault for not doing my homeork first...
P.S. I have checked my old armor bins and found loose scale, but no gauntlet. My wife recalls me disposng of it some time ago. Perhaps I shall have to make new ones and post pics.
On a further note, David had mentioned that he thought working horn was difficult. I thought perhaps a link to Marc Carlson's Horn page might be useful for those interested.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/horn/hornhome.html
(Maybe I got the addy right this time.) I'm sure I have read Nicolle cite a 14th century "brunie of horn" in one German source. Since the debate on brunies has been whether they are mail or scale, it seems obvious that in this case scale was meant. This is not proof of horn used in scale gauntlets, but horn was used to make scale body armor, and scale was used to make gauntlets, so perhaps the two coincided. I'll still try to get some scans out tomorrow from the St. Denis.
[This message has been edited by Ernst (edited 05-08-2002).]
Thanks for the correct link. It loks like I missed a letter with the wireless keyboard.
I will be glad to get some scans from the St. Denis sent out. I know Blair has a line drawing, as well as Nicolle. The manuscript shows a rather square ended scale, for whatever that's worth.
I'm not even sure if I still have the scale gauntlet I made or not. (I foolishly or not only made the right hand.) I recall throwing it in an armor bucket after it bit me some years ago, but being somewhat of a pack rat, I may still have it. If so, I'll try to get a digital picture or scan -- probably the pic, as it was made from mild steel scales, and I doubt I want it on the scanner window.
I made the mitten pattern with a separate cuff, which I didn't pad, presuming the gambeson sleeve to be adequate. I was never proven wrong on this, but would probably err on the safer side and pad the cuff today. If you use the Kongsirden pattern, cut two tops and one bottom. Place your padding between the two tops, and tack it in place. I recall using some 1/4" closed cell foam in my attempt. I think it was a typewriter mat or some such thing. Today, I would use compessed cotton. After padding the top, sew the top and bottom together and turn them to put the hem inside. I found it useful to tack the top and palm together between at least one pair of fingers. This is slightly less comfortable, but seemed to keep the mitten from rolling around the hand.
Next, sew the scale onto the top of the glove and cuff. You may want scales all the way around the cuff, but I felt the gambeson and mail sleeve were adequate. This should be done with small scales; I used 1" x 1.5". I would suggest looking at some historic scales on Norman's site, from Thordemann, or from Robinson's "Imperial Rome" for ideas. To sew the scale to the padded top, my wife used waxed linen thread from Tandy and a curved needle. I tried sewing a few rows, but the expert women are much faster at this. Start at the cuff, and work toward the fingertips. I made sure the vertical overlap was even, but don't worry with tying to get the rows offset. Simply cover the top of the hand as best you can. The scales over the thumb (two wide) need some curvature. At the fingertips and the end of the thumb, you may have to cut out some specially shaped scales to best cover this area. As long as these special plates cover the stitching of the row below, they should be good. You could even use a "cap" of 6oz. leather on the fingertips.
I don't recall this being a technically difficult piece to construct, my wife and I completeing it from concept to finish in two evenings. Looking back on it, I think I might should have used leather or rawhide instead of steel. Certainly I would opt for stainless steel lighter than 18g. and a more historically correct hole and stitching pattern. Otherwise, I was more satisfied with the gauntlet than my leather hockey gloves, primarly due to the decreased bulk and better control. I think I would have sacrificed the extra protection of a steel mitten for the appearance if it hadn't bit me. Which was my fault for not doing my homeork first...
P.S. I have checked my old armor bins and found loose scale, but no gauntlet. My wife recalls me disposng of it some time ago. Perhaps I shall have to make new ones and post pics.
On a further note, David had mentioned that he thought working horn was difficult. I thought perhaps a link to Marc Carlson's Horn page might be useful for those interested.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/horn/hornhome.html
(Maybe I got the addy right this time.) I'm sure I have read Nicolle cite a 14th century "brunie of horn" in one German source. Since the debate on brunies has been whether they are mail or scale, it seems obvious that in this case scale was meant. This is not proof of horn used in scale gauntlets, but horn was used to make scale body armor, and scale was used to make gauntlets, so perhaps the two coincided. I'll still try to get some scans out tomorrow from the St. Denis.
[This message has been edited by Ernst (edited 05-08-2002).]