I need dishing help, pictures of problems

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu May 23, 2002 2:41 pm

Ok this is my first real attempt at dishing. Off of the kettle helm pattern that one of you nice enough to upload for us.

The metal is 18ga aluminum and pictured are my tools, dishing stump and what not. As you tell in the picture the dishing isnâ€™t deep enough for my liking. Not to mention that the pattern wonâ€™t work unless itâ€™s dished deeper.

Any ideas on how to fix this would be great.

You may need to go the web link and then add a ? to it.

http://fitzarland.tripod.com/armorstuff/DSC00838.JPG
http://fitzarland.tripod.com/armorstuff/DSC00839.JPG
http://fitzarland.tripod.com/armorstuff/DSC00840.JPG
http://fitzarland.tripod.com/armorstuff/DSC00841.JPG
http://fitzarland.tripod.com/armorstuff/DSC00842.JPG
http://fitzarland.tripod.com/armorstuff/DSC00843.JPG

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Baron Arland the Bastard
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/rivetedmaille

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu May 23, 2002 2:52 pm

I donâ€™t know whatâ€™s up with tripod. You may need to copy the link and post it in a new browser. Sorry.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu May 23, 2002 3:22 pm

Ok first here's one of the rules for dishing that you've overlooked.

You need to use hard and soft. Either the hammer is hard and the form is soft or the form is hard and the hammer is soft. Hard and hard can work also you just need to be a little more carefull and know what you're dooin more.

Anyway make yourself a dishing hammer with a steel head and you'll get things to go lots deeper.

Also don't be afraid to squeeze the front and back together with your hands to get the shape you want. Not everything's done with a hammer.

Basically the way you need to measure it is in the width and length. If you want your helmet to be 10" wide and 15" from front to back (those are not any kind of actual numbers) then measure the front to back with the whole number and the width one with half the measurement.

You can probably actually put it together the way it is now (with a little squeezing) and it'll still work. Dishing deeper will have the effect of making the top rounder instead of being sorta pointy like it is now.

Don't worry if you need to trim the edges a little to get the halves to fit together. That's supposed to happen. (at least I always have to anyway).

Hope this helps.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Thu May 23, 2002 4:10 pm

I see you are using a rubber mallet for your dishing. I recommend against that type of hammer, as too much of the energy is used up in compressing the hammer. The end result is that as the metal stretches and work hardens, the hammer has less and less of an effect. This effect can be compounded by the stump absorbing some of the energy too. I prefer a weighted rawhide hammer for most of my dishing and a slightly domed, 3 pound hammer for things that need to go really deep.

If you are using my pattern, the halves don't actually meet under the center band. There will be somewhat of a gap that is covered by the band. The width of this gap will vary depending on how deeply you dish the halves. Also the bottom edge may need to be ground down depending on how your dishing turns out.

Jurgen

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu May 23, 2002 4:42 pm

Iâ€™ll try a better mallet or hammer when I get a chance to make one. Iâ€™ve a large ball peen hammer Iâ€™ve been thinking of cutting down to do dishing work with. The other option Iâ€™ve thought of using is the nylon side of a non-marring mallet. Putting it in my drill press and rounding it out some.

The planishing seems to be working well. Iâ€™ve given thought to just trying to raise the helmet.

I am using your pattern Jurgen, so Iâ€™ve got that in mind. I had to cut down on the width some though. When put your pattern to paper and looked at it, it was bit large on my head.

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Thu May 23, 2002 5:51 pm

I agree with ditching the rubber mallet. One of the reasons that your metal is only getting dished so shallow is because the steel is only being forced around the radius of the rubber mallet head and since those are more flat than they are round your pieces are much more shallower. Here's just a quick list of things that may help:

1) wait until your dishing tank arrives, which should be any day now

2) pick up a weighted rawhide mallet with the interchangable heads. They're anywhere from $18-30 depending on where you go online. They've VERY much worth it. Contrary to what Matt says, having a hard and soft hammer/form combination is not required.

3) Try using a smaller rubber mallet. The smaller head will tend to push the steel deeper into the dish, even if the hammer is lighter than it's larger companion.

4) widen and deepen your bowls by another inch or so

Good luck...

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Thu May 23, 2002 10:37 pm

Also keep in mind that aluminum tends to work harden very quickly and easily.
Honestly, I am impressed with how well you dished that using the rubber mallet. With the effort it probably took, you could have pounded out 4 other tops using a rawhide or metal hammer

Sasuke

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www.oaksarmoury.com

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Tue May 28, 2002 10:11 am

Thank you all for help on this.

POD I did get the dishing form. Thanks. I have to do a bit of work on it first before it will though. The little words engraved on it, tend to mark the aluminum up. This week I'm planning on having it welded in so I can grind it smooth.

Sasuke, I've got no idea what alloy the aluminum is, but it really doesn't seem to work hardening at all. But I keep annealing it anyway. I'd hate to get almost done and have it crack on me.

I talked with Sigfried from Mandrake Armory and he was saying the same thing. Get a rawhide mallet. So I'm going to head down to Harbor Freight and get one today.

I'll let you all know how it works out for me.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Tue May 28, 2002 10:42 am

No not required. But it's a heck of a lot less work. With a soft and soft combo you've got a hammer and a form that both absorb part of the force of the blow. Which means less energy is transfered to the work. Which means you need to spend a lot more effort dishing.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Chazz · Post by **Chazz** » Tue May 28, 2002 11:31 am

http://www.csosborne.com/no395.htm

Try a hammer like this. It's exactly what is used at the Windrose Armoury shop. Try finding a large one. To prep it, just hit the hammer in an empty dish a couple of times and it will round the hammers edges and then you'll be set.

Chazz
Check out Kingskeep.com for cool Windrose Armour

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Tue May 28, 2002 3:39 pm

Those are exactly what I need. Iâ€™ll check around for one.

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu May 30, 2002 2:46 pm

The more and more I try to find stuff here in Colorado, the more and more I realize how much I Colorado Springs.

After searching Harbor Freight, Loweâ€™s, and Ace Hardware not one of them has a raw hide mallet (weighted or otherwise), a non marring mallet with removable heads or a domed dead blow hammer.

No matter who you talk to you, how you describe it, or how many pictures you show these idiots, they still think you want a rubber hammer.

The lack of oxygen must be having some effect on these guys.

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Thu May 30, 2002 3:40 pm

This is what I did recently, and it worked out pretty well.

Take a small sledge and round off the face. Then use an angle grinder or something similar to cut a groove around the hammer head about 1/2" back from the face.

Wet down a dog bone, then cut out two discs: one big enough to cover the face, and another with a radius about 1.5" longer than the radius of the face.

In the big disc, punch a circle of holes a little farther out than where the end of the hammer face would be, and cut the rawhide to the holes so that you have a bunch of tabs around the circle.

Sandwich the smaller disc between the big disc and the hammer, and stretch the tabs down along the hammer head. Use waxed thread to tie the tabs down into the groove you cut around the hammer head.

It needs to dry totally before you use it, and it may need replacing once in a while... especially if you hit a lot of sharp corners while dishing. I made my dishing hammer for about five bucks this way.

HELMUT

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Thu May 30, 2002 3:59 pm

I haven't bought one of these from them in a while - but here is a reference to some good people who sell good leather stuff - and exactly the mallets you want.

http://www.zackwhite.com/section1/page51.html

This is actually the page with the mallets...

The mallets aren't cheap.

Wade

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu May 30, 2002 6:00 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2026814985

How about this hammer?

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Thu May 30, 2002 6:19 pm

Or you can build your own. Sasha, you wanna shoot some pics my way? http://www.geocities.com/royldragon/Rawhide_Hammers.html

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