Wool Gambesons/Aketons

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:06 pm

I bought quite a few yards of black wool remnants a few years ago. This was before I knew how expensive it would have been in my period. I only paid about $3/yard for it, but I'd hate to see it go to waste.

I had the idea of using it inside a gambeson, but wasn't sure if it would be too hot. I was thinking of using two layers for most of the body and three at the shoulders. I'm hoping the 3/4 sleeves will let out enough heat.
Is this a crazy idea?

BTW, it won't be for SCA use.

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Saverio
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:41 pm

I recall hearing/ reading about X civilization using Gambesons of wool blackened and soft... But i cant remeber where...

-+G

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:01 am

Three-quarter or short sleeves and mail are a bad combination: your sleeves will bunch in your armpits when the mailshirt goes on. It would be pretty tolerable with plate arms, especially a short-rerebrace transitional-type arm, assuming, of course, that there is an ordinary cloth sleeve under that. I actually don't think it would be too terribly uninhabitable -- wool does breathe.

Too loose a sleeve under mail is likely to have the same problem. I'd go for full length, and close fitted. You could run a buttoned split in the sleeve all the way up to just above the elbow; this was done with the Charles de Blois pourpoint to tailor the sleeve to an exact fit. Mine fits close at the cuff, but I only have to unbutton about 3 of the 21 buttons each sleeve has to take it off. Eyeletting may be useful, though proof of this being done in period is nothing like solid; the strongest documentary mention of it, in "How A Man Schall Be Armyd...," seems to describe an eyeletted lining. A nice big open neck will also help shed heat, at least with the coif removed. Plate components (and we don't know what you have for plate; you didn't mention it) are simply not going to breathe, and will need your arming-doublet (that's really what you are making) under them to keep you from being chafed, to say nothing of uncomfortably heated in the sun if hot metal contacts skin. Quilt the wool down tightly enough to compress it some. That will minimize the amount of insulating air you trap in this garment. Making it so there is some slack in the body of your doublet, while the sleeves are closer fitted, also helps stir a bit of air. The trick of putting on a wet t-shirt under your doublet has its adherents; they say natural fibers that have been sweated into enough to get them dampish then cool you by evaporation the same way a waterbag cools its contents -- a wet t-shirt does the same thing while cutting the sweat smell.

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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 11:36 am

My period is circa 1300, so no plate what so ever. I'll be wearing a maille shirt with 3/4 sleeves, so I want my gambeson to match. The only other armour I'll be wearing is a helmet. The gambeson will pull over my head, since I've never seen evidence of buttons on padded armours this early.

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Saverio
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:10 pm

I've got a linen hand-stitched gambeson stuffed vertically with fleece/wool and it has long sleeves as well as a high collar and knee length. It is comfortable and makes the maille sit correctly. It isn't as hot as the SCA poly/cotton gambeson I have worn for the last 12 years, and it is at least 4 times as thick. I believe I could wear just it and my long-sleeved riveted maille shirt for SCA and be padded enough. I will post pictures as soon as they are developed, probably Wednesday.

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:05 pm

What makes you say the black wool would be expensive in period? I'm not saying you are wrong, just wondering what your reference is.

Here are a few things to note:

---Sheep's wool comes naturally in black

---Most orders of Priests, Friars and Monks commonly wore black (wool) in the 1300's

Just my two groats...

Tim

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tim Finkas:

Here are a few things to note:

---Sheep's wool comes naturally in black

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was under the impression that the wool from black sheep came out lighter when processed, and then needed to be dyed with blue and then brown to get it dark enough. However, I don't have anything to back this up

Even if I'm wrong, I could never use all of it without looking extra Gothy

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Saverio
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

[This message has been edited by Saverio (edited 06-16-2002).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 9:24 pm

I was under the impression that the wool from black sheep came out lighter when processed, and then needed to be dyed with blue and then brown to get it dark enough.

Nope, this was discussed on Regia's site quite extensively. There are black sheep that give black wool. It was expensive, but was (or could be) black, or various shades.

To dye wool "black" requires overdying numerous times, and (I'm referring only up to the beginning of the 12th C. here), was a very expensive proposition. "Black" tended to be dark blue or grey, not black as we know it. Therefore the price for black garments was very high. The church has all the money, so you find black and purple frequently in vestments, but hardly ever for the lower classes. If you where rich enough you can have black. Now what happens after the beginning of the 12th C., I haven't a clue.

[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 06-16-2002).]

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 11:25 pm

This really is something I have to look into. Up until this point, I based my choice of colors loosely on the Mac bible.

Bascot, what width did you use for the channels, and how thick did it end up?

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Saverio
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 11:37 pm

Bascot, what width did you use for the channels, and how thick did it end up?

First off, I did not make it. "Wendy" made it, Steve the guy who does the flat riveted maille recommended her. She said she was not going to make another for a while, but that was 6 months ago. It is 1 1/2" on the width, but I'm not sure how to measure the thickness. Perhaps 3/4"? It's hard to tell with something that can be "fluffed".
Steve SoFo has a picture on his site, and I am only slightly smaller than him.

Uryen · Post by **Uryen** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 11:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Saverio:
.. Up until this point, I based my choice of colors loosely on the Mac bible...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you would be all bright orange and green.

From my experience black sheep produce a dark brown wool. If you have enough space for sheep, they can often be gotten cheap, since wool producers want a uniform colour (white) for dyeing.

Wasnt wearing black regulated by class at some point? (most likely sometime in the 14th century)

Red Simon · Post by **Red Simon** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:57 am

I know someone who weaves wool by hand and she showed me some fabric she made using different colors of undyed wool. I couldnÂ´t believe how many colors you can get Â´straight off the sheepÂ´. Browns, greys, white and off-whites. But it is true that the black is more grayish and not quite as dark as Â´modernÂ´ black.

Simon.

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Uryen:

So you would be all bright orange and green.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did say loosely

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Saverio
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 10:57 am

Just a note for authenticity nuts. There are some people around who grow medieval breed sheep. Forget what they're called.

My mom had sheep untill recently and she spins and does all kinds of stuff with it. Including natural dyes. The black sheep she had tended to be fairly black but they did have a brown tinge to them.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:41 pm

Saverio- Your basic idea is great. A nice, lightly padded piece of body armour will really make the pieces your working on come together well. From all accounts, wool is a surprisingly good fabric for winter and summer.

On a side note, you don't have to completely rule out all plate in your kit, especially as an Italian. There's evidence of coat of plates designs emerging at the end of the 13th century that might be worth considering. That said, the maile look you seem to be shooting for is probably the most common, and really can look very sharp.
Gaston

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 6:07 pm

My eventual knightly portrayal will have a coat of plates, knee cops, and greaves (the last two probably being hardened leather).

However, this gambeson is for my militiaman portrayal, hence the 3/4 sleeves. I want to get some experience with padded armour before I try a long sleeved aketon with collar.

I have a sketch of how I want my kit to roughly look here
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/sketch.html
I should note that the shield is too short to be a tabulaccio.

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Saverio
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/