The Armour Archive

Warning! Newbie armorer thinks he's got what it takes!

As you may know, I'm an inexperienced amateur armorer. I've just completed my first full armor kit in plastic. I've spent the past year casually researching armor (mostly Japanese) through books and online; I've spent no time with an actual armorer. I don't even have an authorization to fight yet! And yet, I enjoy making armors, and I want to sell simple budget armors and do-it-yourself kits. So, I'm going to take a stab at it and share my first piece for critique before I take the final plunge and list anything for sale.

The first item I want to offer is something I call my Dou-It-Yourself Kit. I hope you'll forgive the pun.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeK0.jpg[/img]

I'll offer this armor kit with everything necessary to assemble it into a full (albeit basic) Hotoke-Dou. (i.e. odoshi, kohaze, cords for the wakigami, etc)

The painted piece to the right is the prototype, shown here to give an idea of the finished look, with the 'dishing effect' and coloration.

This armor kit uses .09" (3/32") thick Olive-colored HDPE. This material works well with black Krylon spraypaint, and I'll be experimenting with various plastic paints to see which one holds up the best. I have access to black ABS and Kydex, of 1/16" and 5/32" thickness, and I'll be making heavier armors and armor components of this material in the near future. The HDPE accepts a curve when heated, but still retains flexibility. This means that heavy hits can be felt through the armor, but it still offers good protection. I have solved the 'dishing' problem with a design that allows a pinch on either side, where waki-ita would meet the dou proper (which would be held fast by hishinui). I'll offer different colors of odoshi, of course. Right now, I've got red and yellow-orange, with blue and green coming soon.

I'm prepared to offer a few sizes, though I'm not certain what size range I'll have to be ready to offer! Of the SCA combattants I know, some are the short, thin, wiry type, and the rest are giants - tall, broad, and often full-bellied! If any of you are willing to share your measurements (height, chest and waist), it could be very useful information! (And yes, I say that to the ladies at the club all the time!)

Low estimates for prices are in the $110-140 range for the kit, and $160-190 for the dou fully assembled.

I'll also soon be sharing a Nodowa design I'm working on.

So, if I may, I'd like to ask all your opinions! Hypothetically, who might be interested in purchasing a nodowa, or a finished dou or a kit like this? (If you're not in the market, you can still express interest or lack thereof!) It's a great starter armor for newbies, and it'd be perfect for outfitting a retainer! Is the price good, or absurd, or am I under-pricing myself? Should I offer the kit with all the armor pieces flat, or with each piece thermoformed, painted, grommetted, and ready to lace? Detailed and illustrated instructions for assembly will be included. Would anyone be more interested in buying a kit complete with suneate and kote and haidate? (Yes, I'll be offering those, too!) What about one with simple plastic knee cops and bazubands to hide under the kote? I look forward to all your responses.

Thank you for reading, and wish me luck!

I'm a grouch, so take this for what it's worth.

It's plastic, but for plastic in one piece you damn well seem to have gotten the pattern shapes down. I'm impressed.

Have you tried beating on a formed one for a while? I have no clue how plastic armor works, so I can't estimate how it'll hold up.

If those pieces are hand cut and punched/drilled, you're probably underselling yourself. How many hours went into these?

The dished breastplate isn't quite curved the right way, but it's a prototype, neh?

I'm afraid I'd have to pass, however. I make armor and I wear it to see how it wears, I don't make armor to fight. While I'd have no problems purchasing armor (and have) I don't like plastic just because I want the armor, I don't particularly have the "get on the field" mentality.

This'll do some Japanese persona newbie a world of good, though.

Hiya Toastygawa,
From my experience, 1/8" HDPE is as light as you want to go for armor that is going to recieve any real hits (SCA etc); thinner would be fine for LARP, of course. My prototype Do is made from 1/8" HDPE, it overlaps 2/3 of it's surface, and I decided to go to 3/16" for production suits, 1/8" being a bit light for newer fighters (who tend to get hit a lot).
I would stay away from ABS and Kydex, when made into complex shapes or subjected to cold they can crack or shatter when struck.
As for color, why not go with black HDPE? It would look right and it's the most easily available color out there, unless you are getting offcuts from another manufacturer. Red is another good possibility, although less easily available. HDPE is very bad for painting, and in a few weeks of fighting, the olive would be showing through.
Take my advice for what it's worth, but I've been making HDPE plastic armor for over 4 years now as a business, and I've even made a few suits of Japanese. Take a look at my webpage, on my sig line.

I use to be an armorer for http://thearmourstore.com/ so I know I am somewhat of an armor snob but the armor looks to have potential.

I agree with Dalewyn you should go with black plastic because in SCA combat you can have anything paint for very long before you have to paint it again and then it never will be the same as it started.

My experience with abs plastic is that 1/8th inch thick is perfect. I would agree that any thinner plastic might be alittle thin for skinny beginners.

Do you have a fully constructed suit that you can show pics of,if so it will give people more of an idea of what it will look like when finished.

As for the product line,you could offer several different versions. You could offer the basic kit where everything will be cut but nothing formed or assembled. Then you could offer a kit thats formed yet not assembled.(the buyer can then customize their lacing) then you could offer a fully assembled kit.

As for pricing,add the materials cost together. then figure out how many hours it takes to construct. then figure out how much you wanna pay yourself per hour. then add in an extra amount for time spent getting the materials and shipping the product.

Everyone has an idea of what they should charge for their labor. If you really like making the armor you wont like making the same thing over and over. You should charge a professional wage for your time because it is a job once you start selling it.

Thank you all for your responses!

Pics of a finished suit (and of the prototype after some bludgeoning) will be posted within the next few days, barring any unforseen delays.

Mike, this is definitely a kit aimed for the eager 'get on the field' guys! I'm trying my best to make it in a way that offers a fast solution that looks good enough to inspire a nod, instead of a scoff, from both real armorers and authenticity enthusiasts.

Dalewyn, I've had your page bookmarked for a while, using your Japanese kit as a comparison to my own ideas!
The reason why I am using Olive HDPE is the price. My funds right now are limited, and the Olive HDPE is available to me for a very affordable price. If I can sell a few kits and a finished armor, it will allow me to purchase more (and better) material. I intend to use a thicker material for the essential protection (neck, elbow, knee... etc), although I may simply wait to offer those until I can make the entire kit with that thickness. Should I augment the introductory kits with a matching HDPE kidney belt to hide under the armor?

Gunther, I like the idea of a 3-tier product line. Thus, a basic kit, an Easy Kit, and an assembled armor would all be available.
Actually, I've followed that formula you gave in determining the pricing of this kit. The hours taken to build it are few compared to the preparation time I've spent in setting up the system, making the instructions, and the website (to be revealed very soon!).

I would like to add to the above statements, that the armor seems very thin.

I had just finished my first shield which is constructed of:
1/4" crappy Birch plywood from Home Depot, I then used gorilla glue to attach 1/8" high quality GE Lexan to the face of the shield, I then covered this with 8oz cotton canvas.

I had my wimpy wife take a couple of her hardest shots to my shield arm, and I felt the sting. Of course I had no padding or arm armor on at the time.

This may partially be due to the nature of the Lexan, or just not having any padding...

All that aside, I am relatively new to fighting...(havent authorized yet, as I am still getting all my armor together) But I have never been struck in the chest yet.

I think the thickness may work fine, assuming it holds up to a thorough beating, but if for a little more time, you could add a quarter inch to half inch of padding behind the the BP espescially along the kidney area.

Other than that, it looks really good.

A word about ABS. Several in our fighting group have used ABS to good use. The difficult part is heating it evenly. We happen to use a screen printers conveyor dryer and then press around the body part holding it until it sets-up. My sons shest and back plates are I believe 1/4" and the ribs are 1/8". This has a 1/8" of foam an the inside to cushion. He can take a full force hit from a 350 pound attacker and barely feels it. In this SCA kingdom, no plastic can be visible (unless covered in paint or leather or cloth) so it doesn't really matter what it looks like.
I on the other hand have used some of the neoprene white barrel plates without any foam backing and it stings like hell.

Gene

Sagebowman wrote:A word about ABS. Several in our fighting group have used ABS to good use. The difficult part is heating it evenly. We happen to use a screen printers conveyor dryer and then press around the body part holding it until it sets-up. My sons shest and back plates are I believe 1/4" and the ribs are 1/8". This has a 1/8" of foam an the inside to cushion. He can take a full force hit from a 350 pound attacker and barely feels it. In this SCA kingdom, no plastic can be visible (unless covered in paint or leather or cloth) so it doesn't really matter what it looks like.
I on the other hand have used some of the neoprene white barrel plates without any foam backing and it stings like hell.

Gene

Stings ? Sure - so does steel. But do you bruise through it ? Typically, that stinging sensation means the impact was distributed over a significant area, but didn't penetrate to a significant depth anywhere.

Armor really isn't meant to eliminate pain in SCA fighting, rather it's purpose is to minimize damage/injury. There's also the whole thing that one cannot very well be recreating armored foot combat of the middle ages if one is not wearing armor

As to the purpose ofthis thread, I've no experience in how well 3/32 HDPE will function in SCA combat. That's something you really need a good answer to before you offer the product for sale - especially to people who are just getting started.

Gavin

The design is right on

the thickness will be fine, i think. Mine withis just a little thicker but with no overlap has gotten beaten on for over an year and had no failures.

5 plate sode and kazazuri? sounds great.

The more people making entry level kits for japanese the more people will do japanese so i am all for it.

I can definitely say I would be interested in such a kit. The hotoke-dou is too late for my persona, but the ache of wanting to get on the field is starting to override me sense. Plus, $140 is better than the $600 I'll need for all the Noble Plastics kozane I'll need for my maru-dou.

My last dou was 1/16 on the body and 3/32 on the shoulders and arms. It only lasted 15 years so my new dou is 1/8.

Nissan Maxima wrote:My last dou was 1/16 on the body and 3/32 on the shoulders and arms. It only lasted 15 years so my new dou is 1/8.

Yikes! And I thought I had a high pain threshold...Ok, so I'm a little overly paranoid of someone getting clobbered in MY armor, I make it a bit thicker than needed...Also, HDPE has more flex than ABS, so it has to be a bit thicker to get the same protection. Don't know what your first suit was made from...Still, 1/8" is as thin as I would go...

My personal preference would be for the wakiita and munaita and oshitsuke no ita to be saparate plates. Since you're halfway cutting off the the wakiita ANYWAY and drilling for holes, you might as well finish the job and do it *right*. Likewise, if you have a separate munaita, you will have even MORE "bendage" at the joint, since that seems to be something you're working on doing.

You'd really do better in terms of "fitting" a body shape if you were to make a solid nakagawa do (the part of the armour *below* the wakiita) and provide solid lames for the tateage in front and behind. The required use of lacing (or rivets) to hold those in place would create a warpage in the body that would allow the do to actually fit, rather than just being a straight tube.

Effingham

I spent yesterday cutting, sanding, and drilling, and finished the parts to one complete kit. This kit will be the official prototype (the already blackened front plate was an early model that recieved lots of revision). I learned a few things yesterday that will improve the quality overall, and I'll put all that into use with the kits I offer for sale (this one will become my official loaner kit).

Tonight, the kit will be formed and painted, and by tomorrow night, I should be able to post pics of it complete, laced, and worn.

Effingham-sensei, on this prototype, the Oshitsuke-no-ita and Munaita are separate pieces, but the waki-ita are configured the way they are in order to pseudo-dish the plastic. I'll use hishinui to hold that angle together, starting from the outside and ending at the hole drilled (around the nipple area) to pass the remainder of that lace through as takahimo. This creates a pseudo-dished effect that seems to fit my torso, but we'll see for certain on friday night when it's all together. The photos I take should explain this better than I have here. I did this, rather than making separate waki-ita, to keep the lacing on the dou minimal (I have no rivets right now, and I'm hesitant to use lacing up the edges of the tateagi for some reason). This would be solved by making hishinui-dou, and I intend to do just that within a month or a little more. Future armors I hope to offer will follow traditional patterns more closely.

On friday night, I'll also give this kit a stress test by having my lovely girlfriend use me as a pell. If I can still type after that, I'll write up a report on exactly how much padding this thing would need as-is. The padding would be something the purchaser provides, as different people undoubtedly want different amounts of cushioning. Nissan may be completely comfortable in this armor, while others might be more sensitive to the sting from that rattan.

That's impressive work, and I'd definitely agree that the more people make beginner suits for japanese personas the better.

3/32 might be a little thin... but it could always be padded out to the tastes of the wearer.

What we discovered in the backyard: The thinner the plastic is, the more I scream like a 5 year old girl when I crack a rib (Or have one cracked for me.)

It always felt "stickier" taking a spear to the torso... (Then again, maybe I am just the suck at this) I think I can attribute that to what dalewyn said about HDPE having more flex...

As for price, that seems a great price for what you're offering, assembled or no. The interest is there, but the spare cash is not.

That would not, however, stop me from telling others.


This next bit will out me as a true nerd:
SCA combat aside, this would be a great kit for LARP fighting... I've had at least three people from the Seattle area ask me about japanese armour, or tell me "It's impossible to find." (The kind of statement *we* spoiled armour snobs laugh at.) I told them they'd be better off getting a kit from alchemy, or coming here to read up on making their own.

I guess now I can amend that to add you to the list

Awesome work, I can't wait to see the new pics.

Always helpful, except in emergencies;
-Gideon

I have a few guys here interested in seing the finished product. Good luck with the testing and don't forget to take lots of pictures.

This may seem an obvious question but... is it one-size-fits all? That may be a serious problem if not. I'm a small guy, 5'6", 120 lbs, so you may consider going as small as that for your size range. Just a thought.

I think you've got a fabulous thing here, and I'm impressed. I personally have little interest in your fine product, but don't take that the wrong way at all, I think your kit a fantastic idea. I'm personally just an authentinazi, and even if I did decide to do a Japanese persona at some point, I'd have to stick with metal. I'd like to see you be successful with this. Lookin' forward to the pics too.

Edit after I re-read the post...

Sorry for the delay, everyone. Let's start with the basic unpainted plates after forming. These images show the basic curvature of the armor when 'relaxed'. The chest curve becomes a bit more noticable when the armor is pulled tightly around the body. I believe this will provide better protective rigidity, but I've not tested this theory yet.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeDetail1.jpg[/img]

Effects of the 'pinched' pseudo-dishing design.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeDetail2.jpg[/img]

Here you see the back plate.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeDetail4.jpg[/img]

The plates have been painted, and the lacing is underway. More pics soon.

Azommin, to answer your question, this particular piece is designed to fit me, and I'm not a small man. It'll fit someone a bit bigger than I am, and likewise for someone smaller. This piece won't fit you, but I know what measurements I'd need in order to make the pattern to your size. I will be offering a small kit that should fit from your size to someone a few inches taller and more round.

These kits are all ryo-awase (unhinged) to accomodate different shapes of torsos. I won't be offering hinged armors until I can find a hinge that I think is sturdy enough to take this kind of bludgeoning.

Gideon/Marcidius, I hadn't actually thought of the LARP applications of this armor. I think I'll always design armor with traditional patterns in mind, with the durability needed for SCA combat, which should then be more than acceptable for LARPing. This kit, as it is, I think is suitable for SCA combat when the wearer uses padding. This means that it'll be more than acceptable for LARPing. And the weight on this thing is minimal, too...

[quote="Toastygawa"]
These kits are all ryo-awase (unhinged) to accomodate different shapes of torsos. I won't be offering hinged armors until I can find a hinge that I think is sturdy enough to take this kind of bludgeoning.

quote]

Hey Toastygawa;
One of the problems with historical Mogami do is the fraility of the hinges; I use "lace hinges" to solve this problem. It's easy to make, works well, looks good, and easy to fix by the end user. I always include 5-10 yards of lace for repairs.

Toastygawa, I already replied to you at the Tousando boards (where i post as Mr.Cunningham), but i'll reiterate here: this looks GREAT for sca newbies like me who want to get out of the loaner stuff, but don't want to have to use a Crap-anese persona in order to do so. You sound like a bigger guy than me, but if it'll fit a 5'9", 170 dude with only a 33" chest like me (with padding, since i'm more of a wuss than Maxima-san), i'd love to be (one of the) first in line.

Cheers,
Alex

I've been unable to work on the armor kit for any length of time since Saturday early morning. After I came back from doing groceries in Indianapolis yesterday (don't ask), I sat for about 45 mins and laced up the back plate, and I intend to take the rest to work tonight. Finished dou pics should be arriving somewhere around 6pm tuesday. (just too tired at 5am)

I've also done a scratch test and blunt trauma test on small samples of the painted material. I'll post pics of the HDPE freshly painted, then scratched to hell, then re-painted. I was happy to see the results after re-painting. It's still painted plastic, but it looks better than I expected it to.

Good Mr Cunningham, your excitement over my armor makes me happy! Material is on it's way right now to construct the first for-sale kits.

Thanks for the hint, Dalewyn! Is the lace hinge simply an extra-long hishinui connecting two edges, or something different?

I'm hoping by Janurary to be fully set up to be able to produce better armors with better materials. Among the first kits available will be mogami-dou and hishinui-dou (both ryo-awase ni-mai).

This prototype dou is nearing completion, awaiting the toggles for the kohaze, and mimi-ito (edge lacing). Note that on the end product, the lacing color(s) will be customizable (depending the colors I stock, of course). I will only offer solid colors at first. Patterned laces are something I'm looking into, but won't be offering any time soon.

Here you see the front of the dou at rest. It forms to the body pretty well with a belt around the waist and the takahimo secured (those laces hanging down on either side of the dou are the takahimo, and this is not their final positioning). The yellow cord across the wakigami (shoulder straps) is there for testing, and is not in final position... in fact, one of the two is completely backward! It'll be done properly when I attach the kohaze.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/Hotoke5.jpg[/img]

Here you see the back of the dou.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/Hotoke6.jpg[/img]

You might notice a scuff on the wakiita area - that's a sanding mishap (which won't happen on production armors). You might also notice a mistake I made in the lacing which is barely visible on the inside of the dou front in the second picture (easily fixable, also won't be on the production armors). If you're really looking closely, you'll see the reason why this prototype isn't for sale, which is that the holes for a couple of the kusazuri are too close to the edges of the lames for my comfort. This is also something I've remedied in my templates, and thus will not be a problem in production armors.

Pics tomorrow of the complete armor, and then I'll be elsewhere for the weekend (though I'll still able to respond and comment here). G'night!

Since you said there would be a limit on the lace colors you would have in stock, would you consider using laces provided by the customer?

I'll leave the option open on the Dou-It-Yourself kits to opt out of including the laces, so that the buyer can provide their own. If anyone wants to send me a package of laces with which to lace the kit, I suppose that'd work too... but it would might require an alteration to the hole spacing. These holes are drilled to accept 3/8" laces, and I'm not certain how it'd look with wider laces. If you want a color that I don't carry, I'll be happy to purchase it, provided that my distributor carries it. This wouldn't cost any extra, as the unused laces will undoubtedly be useful in my inventory (however, it would add to the time required to build, since I'd have to wait for the shipment).

To begin, I'll carry Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Light Blue and Dark Blue laces. To this, I'll be adding Black, Dark Brown, Light Brown, another Green, and a Purple. I should throw in white, too...
What I cannot yet offer is a patterned lace (like for mimi-ito). Custom orders like mimi-ito require a minimum order of around 1000 yds, which is unrealistic considering I don't think I'd need 10 yds of it for a single suit of armor. On high-end armors (which I hope to eventually offer on a queue-by-queue basis), I'd be able to purchase mimi-ito from Toraba.

Very cool! I dont know if I can afford one now, or soon, and I'm not really doin' the Japanese thing, but wow... thats awesome. Definitelly interrested.

so do you have to heat these again to custom fit them to your body?

They look awful flat....


I am considering changing my persona so I am very interested.

I like the finished product. A LOT

This does look pretty flat though, You could take a propane torch to the inside to heat up the area to be dished/rolled and adjust as you go.

I think what he's suggesting is that with a sashimono tied in place the shape is pretty good. I can see it. If you needed to, you could give it a little "flex" by hand before you put it on. I'm still a little unconvinced aout the thickness, however...

Dalewyn, you've hit the nail on the head. HDPE of this thickness is pretty flexible. When the uwa-obi (the belt that is worn around the armor) is tied in place, it pulls the sides in and gives the armor a shape that hugs the body pretty well. Takahimo (the loops coming out of the 'nipple holes') are meant to tie the armor together under the arm, as well. Once this plastic is flexed against the body, it gains a better rigidity and impact resistance than when it's relaxed.

If I find during testing that the uwa-obi slides around too much, then I'll drill holes and place grommets on either side of the back plate to pass the belt through, holding it in place. I doubt this will be necessary.

Hey Toastygawa, you don't by any chance know Satya? she was telling me of a friend of hers building japanese kits.

Agnarr wrote:Hey Toastygawa, you don't by any chance know Satya? she was telling me of a friend of hers building japanese kits.

Small world, ain't it? Have you seen the sashimono she's making for me?

And right before I head out for Thanksgiving with family, here is a complete Dou.

[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeCameo1.jpg[/img]

The takahimo are long, and can be trimmed as necessary by the purchaser. See that angle scratch/dent on the left chest? That was my girlfriend with a bokken. She hits pretty damn hard! I'll just say this kit should be worn with padding, to the wearer's preference. I will offer thicker material as soon as I can afford it!

A close-up on the attachments.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/KohazeCameo.jpg[/img]

The back of the dou.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeBack2.jpg[/img]

And the side. The amount of overlap between the plates in this image is much less than it should be... it should be overlapping at least one inch. This is a sizing customization thing, and I'll be able to accomodate several body sizes and belly sizes by changing one or two measurements - an easy fitting process.
[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/imelci1028/Toastycrap/HotokeSide.jpg[/img]

While the 'dishing' is very subtle when the plates are flexed to the body, the curvature is still there. When standing comfortably, the top of the munaita is only an inch from my sternum (and closer to my pectorals, of course). Essentially, it fits my body. Custom fitting will simply be a process of making the front and back plates to the proper sizes. I imagine I'll have to try making armors for a very large person and for a very thin person, and then I'll have it down...

Happy Thanxgiving, everyone! Engorge yourselves!

Toastygawa wrote:

Agnarr wrote:Hey Toastygawa, you don't by any chance know Satya? she was telling me of a friend of hers building japanese kits.

Small world, ain't it? Have you seen the sashimono she's making for me?

Yup, i was there when she did it. looked pretty sweet.