The Armour Archive

Well there is some thing to be said for proper knee articulation.

I was sitting in my livingroom trying to get this harness to work. I had the cuisses and greaves on and was trying to get the straps to work. I was not able to close the greaves with the arming clothes so I only had on wool chausses. I bent my knee and the knee cop burst through opening a big gap I'll show pics when I can get them loaded so you can see how far off it is.. anyhow a tryed to stand up and it pinched my knee cap. it completely cutting off a 2 inch long and one inch wide chunck of flesh off. I could actually see the bone of my kneecap. Blood was spurting everywhere and I almost passed out form the pain. I had to get stiches.. my whole knee has swollen up and I'll be missing my birthday party and probly the renn faire..I am in serious pain right now and realy upset. I ask you does this sound like this harness works right... I don't think so. I'm selling this Harness. If anyone is intrested contact me.

[This message has been edited by Halloween1966 (edited 10-30-2002).]

The articulation cut you through woll chausses? I hope you are ok

Sorry to hear about your injury.

I have looked over the pictures of the harness from the other thread. My opinion is that the articulation looks like it gaps, on the outside at least, when the legs and arms are bent. In their extended positions they seem to look very very good. This may be why you got "bit" - the articulations are solidly closed when flexed straight, but gap when bent. The best articulating lames reveal no gaps throughout their travel. It seems to me a black art that I don't claim to have the beginnings of understanding how to achieve.

That said, this is still a tremendous harness. I think it may be fair to say that Matt may need to work on his articulations more, but nonetheless this is still a harness with a lot of skill and time put into it. I think I recall the figure of $2000 put on the harness? It certainly looks all of a $2000 harness to me.

Again, it's hard to fully judge a piece of armour from photos. And the photos don't show us how well the armour fits on you. But the photos do look to me like quite an impressive bit of labor and skill. I'm sure the biting articulation has put you off on the kit even more. Sorry to hear about your experience.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon

Wow, Halloween, you sure know how to sell a kit.

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

I took pictures of the gap witha tape measure brdiging the gap. on the left knee where I got bit the gap is almost 3 inches.. the right knee is 1 inch. I was trying to get the gap to close sitting down and it wouldn't go back under.. I never should have tried standing up.. that was stupid.. I was hoping the force of my leg would close it. Yeah it bit right through the wool and my knee. It looks like a kiss on the front of my knee. As I'm obviously not going anywhere for a while I'll take the rest of the close-ups and post my review of the harness alot sooner than I though. This will probly kill any re-sale potential of the harness.
I have $2,650 in to the harness and arming clothes.. that by the way also do not fit me.

This whole thing has been a mess.

Have you tried nicely asking Matt to re-do the knees instead of posting stuff like this? I'm sure, after alittle break, he'd have been happy to take another shot at re-articulating them.

Basically, you bought something from someone who lives thousands of miles from you, and has never laid eyes on you in his entire life. Many armourers offer to fix stuff if it doesn't fit, because it's so difficult to get it just so the first time.

Out of curiosity, have you ever done any armouring before? Ever dished or planished something, or even peened a rivet? Do you realize just how complex that harness of yours is? It's not made on an assembly line like your car, someone who has been honing his skills for several years made that, built it with his hands and his knowledge from nothing. Every square inch of bluing was applied patiently by hand and eye. Every inch of brass was cut, trimmed and lined up to follow the countours of the armour. By hand, not by some computer. He took time that he could have spent with his wife and kids, or out at a pub with the boys, to make that for you. Yes, you paid him, and yes, he does have an obligation to make sure it's functional. But please, show a little respect for the man and for the craft. It's attitudes like yours that are driving craftsmen (not just armourers, but all craftsmen) away from their work.

~Wil

[This message has been edited by Brodir (edited 10-30-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brodir:
<B>Out of curiosity, have you ever done any armouring before? Ever dished or planished something, or even peened a rivet? Do you realize just how complex that harness of yours is? It's not made on an assembly line like your car, someone who has been honing his skills for several years made that, built it with his hands and his knowledge from nothing. Every square inch of bluing was applied patiently by hand and eye. Every inch of brass was cut, trimmed and lined up to follow the countours of the armour. By hand, not by some computer. He took time that he could have spent with his wife and kids, or out at a pub with the boys, to make that for you. Yes, you paid him, and yes, he does have an obligation to make sure it's functional. But please, show a little respect for the man and for the craft. It's attitudes like yours that are driving craftsmen (not just armourers, but all craftsmen) away from their work.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now hold on a second man. You make it sound like placing an order with an armourer is unfairly burdensome to him. It's not. Matt took this commission knowing that it would mean long hours in the shop, but that is just one of the sacrifices you make if you sell armour. It seems like you're belittling someone for posting a bad review.

Unfortunately, unless you're on the level of Mac, Radford, and Gillespie, you're bound to make mistakes while armouring. I know I've made my share, and I still make them. I'll continue to make them until I'm too old to grip a hammer anymore too. I just hope they're not the same mistakes I make today

Halloween, I'm really sorry you got clipped by the legs and that things don't fit as well as you'd like. From the reviews I've read by Matt's previous customers, all of which were very favorable, what happened to you was a one in a million fluke. Regardless, I hope you're able to wear at least some of the armour for the party. That's a damn fine looking harness!

Brodir, don't be too hasty in your criticism of the criticism. Halloween's dilemma is not a light one. He actually got hurt due to a deficiency of the armor. (Actually due to several minor deficiencies coming together just the wrong way, I think.) I don't know all the details, but as you say, I believe that Matt has an obligation to make sure the armor works right. That's especially difficult due to geography, but something needs to be done.

I'll be the first to admit, it is difficult to fit a client via mail order, especially for a full harness, but be that as it may, the armor should function properly even if the fit is a little off. I'm certainly aware that Matt has spent a huge amount of time and energy on this project, and for the most part it seems to have turned out well. However, some things need work, and it is a business deal-it needs a conclusion that's acceptable to both parties.

I will say for the record that I have recently concluded a (much smaller) commission of my own for Halloween, and I have found him to be both reasonable and fair. I don't think he's jumping off the deep end here.

I spent $2650+ on a harness that is suposed to work. That's the bottome line. I could have sent it back, I was given that option and I didn't because I know Matt needs the money for a car. I know he has 2 kids and a wife, he is prety much broke in a tough spot.
I lost my job a few weeks back. Matt was fully aware this and offred to let me back out and I well could have but, I gave my word that I would pay for his work. No matter what. My word means more to me than money. I trusted him to be able to keep his word. The problem is This harness wasn't even put to gether untill 2 days before it shipped. By the time Matt figured out the articulation didn't work, and he did e-mail that it wasn't working but he " solved" the problem it was just 1 day before it shipped. When it arrived the pieces were just lain inside of eachother.. not wrapped or anything. The box was just stuffed with balls of newspaper.. let me tell you the harness has hundreds of gouges, scratches and dings all over it. I could have 5-6 people come on here and tell you how the armour looks. I'm telling the gods honest truth. I spentthe last 3 days trying to clean it up,rust proof it and get it to fit me... It doesn't even come close but you know what, I refused to give up even when I was told flat out by sevral respected people that I should send it back or sell it right away because it needs hundreds of dollars worth of work before its going to be useable. I don't have any more money to fix this. So, don't you dare say I'm the type of person who drives armourers away. you don't know what you are even talking about. Anybody else would be livid and posting all kinds of negative remarks. you want to see what's wrong with this armour.. fine here is the list.

1) the knee cops are too shallow and do not form a proper 90 degree angle. the lames are also cut way to small/short and therfore burst through and gaps badly.. to fix this he just bashed the edges up so they hit the insideof the cop and stop the articulation and gapping. the proper fix would be a new knee cop done propery and new lames cut to the correct size. he aslo rivited them in the wrong place.. too far to the outside making the articulation very loose. he also gave them a full wrap and made it way to tight and it's not flush where it contacts the the cuisse. there is a gap and exposes about 1/8inch of the rivets. The other half is held on with a hinge that is goint to break, it's under alot of stess.

2) the curiass the top of it is curved and should be flat.. minor but it
makes the edges dig into your chest . you can put your fist between your chest and the curiass at the top. this should be flush against you wit no gap. second.. he attached the side plates to far to the outside edge of the center plate and
made the leather that attaches it way to narrow... it has almost no float and makes it imposible to touch your hands in front of you. the fix would be to grin the back of the rivits off, detach the leather and peen tha backs of them over. get wider leather and re attach to the
center plate about 1/2 inward of where it is now.
3) The arms.. basically he made them a full wrap and made it way to tight. the arming coat and my maille cannot be worn together it just won't fit. solution is to just cut them off and just use straps. He also made the elbow cops too shallow and they don't form a 90 degree.. same problem here as the knee cops.
4) the greaves.. very slopy welding job.. Matt needs to learn how to weld.

5) the gorget and bevor do not fit at all. it's not even wearable.
6)The arming clothes are way over padded. I can hardly move my arms in them the elbows are padded so thick I can hardly flex my arms. the padded legs do not fit under the greaves.. too much material and padding.

After all this.. I told Matt I would keep the armour and figure this out for myself and for him not to worry. In fact I sent him E-mail encouraging him not to quit or give up that he had potential. That I didn't hold it against him... you can ask him yourself.

I'm sorry if I sound pissy but I'm hurt, on medication and in a foul mood.I'll probly never post on the Archives again anyway.
so, flame away.

From your profile it appears that you live a little less than 20 miles from me, would you allow mw the opportunity to look at the harness and possible come up with some solutions so that you may be able to use it?

Eric

Man Halloween,

We wont flame you. You are the patron.

In modern terms, you are the customer. I am really sorry that the harness hurt you. I also have a feeling that the gear needs a little more make ready than you were ready to handle. This is NOT a critism of you, Matt should have made the set up requirement clear, and done them himself (as much as he could) if you were unable. It takes a fair amout of skill, and a body there to fit it on to.

I tell people all the time that it takes a little skill to fit armor to them. It's really easy to feel like a piece of armor is crap because it isn't fitted to them peoperly.

I hope that you and ArmorerErik are able to get the stuff to work for you tonight. I am assuming that it is supposed to be the halloween costume to end all halloween costumes.

I am really sorry that this happened. Please, let Erik have a try. You still might have the costume you wanted.

OK, sincere apologies, my post was a bit hasty. Matt did take money, and he definetly does have an obligation to do this right. I'm not implying that Hal should shut up and be happy with any junk anyone throws his way, because that isn't fair to the consumer. I guess I just feel that Matt busted his ass making that stuff, and I would rather see the two of them work something out regarding replacing the polyens and whatnot, rather than Hal saying publically, 'It's shit, I'm selling it'.

Hal, sorry for jumping down your throat. Perhaps I jumped to the armourers defense because, in the past, I have expected armourers to make me fitting, functional and gorgeous armour for peanuts. And when I didn't get my dream helm for $140, I posted here, criticising their work and business practices and character. I know, what an asshole.

After an armourer quoted me $300 on a helm I wanted, I said, 'To hell with this joker, I'll but a pair of helmet halves for $20 and make my own damned helm'.

After taking a shot at doing it myself, I realized just how much skill is involved, how many specialized tools an armourer must make or buy to do this properly, and how many times something gets screwed up and must be scrapped. In the end, I paid that armourer $300, and ever since I have willingly paid high prices for high quality work (when I can afford it, which hasn't been very often since my son was born:P). I guess I feel a little embarrased about being critical of work I had done cheap, and took it out on you. My apologies.

~Wil

Now, to directly address your post...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Halloween1966:
1) the knee cops are too shallow and do not form a proper 90 degree angle. the lames are also cut way to small/short and therfore burst through and gaps badly.. to fix this he just bashed the edges up so they hit the insideof the cop and stop the articulation and gapping. the proper fix would be a new knee cop done propery and new lames cut to the correct size. he aslo rivited them in the wrong place.. too far to the outside making the articulation very loose. he also gave them a full wrap and made it way to tight and it's not flush where it contacts the the cuisse. there is a gap and exposes about 1/8inch of the rivets. The other half is held on with a hinge that is goint to break, it's under alot of stess.

Sounds like the knees are a total bust. I do think that Matt could re-make them, and mount them on the existing cuisses though. He could even use the existing brass trim.

<B>2) the curiass the top of it is curved and should be flat.. minor but it
makes the edges dig into your chest . you can put your fist between your chest and the curiass at the top. this should be flush against you wit no gap. second.. he attached the side plates to far to the outside edge of the center plate and made the leather that attaches it way to narrow... it has almost no float and makes it imposible to touch your hands in front of you. the fix would be to grin the back of the rivits off, detach the leather and peen tha backs of them over. get wider leather and re attach to the
center plate about 1/2 inward of where it is now.</B>

Well, you covered that one pretty well. I have no suggestions, re-making the entire cuirass would be a real pain in the ass, but your solutions do sound do-able & perhaps less labour intensive.

3) The arms.. basically he made them a full wrap and made it way to tight. the arming coat and my maille cannot be worn together it just won't fit. solution is to just cut them off and just use straps. He also made the elbow cops too shallow and they don't form a 90 degree.. same problem here as the knee cops.

The rerebraces could be switched to a gutter style, which was very popular. Wouldn't be much work for Matt to switch them at all.

Have you ever seen the arm harness they found, attributed to Charles VI? It's dated to around the same time as your harness, and is basically a single elbow cop, which articulates on the vambraces on a leather. I've made arm harnesses like this (but with splinted vams), they are quite comfy, functional, and period. Matt has done these too, I'm sure the problem could be solved by simply making a deeper cop and using the existing vambraces?

4) the greaves.. very slopy welding job.. Matt needs to learn how to weld.

On the outside, or the inside?

5) the gorget and bevor do not fit at all. it's not even wearable.

Yeah, it looked weird to me too, but I'm unfamiliar with the original.

<B>6)The arming clothes are way over padded. I can hardly move my arms in them the elbows are padded so thick I can hardly flex my arms. the padded legs do not fit under the greaves.. too much material and padding.
</B>

These will have to be replaced. This isn't a big deal though, you should not have a hard time selling them; many folks are using maille or other flexible armours, and would like to have a thicker gambeson. Yours should be very thin, essentially a few layers of cloth quilted. You don't need padding, just something to prevent the armour bites.

After all this.. I told Matt I would keep the armour and figure this out for myself and for him not to worry. In fact I sent him E-mail encouraging him not to quit or give up that he had potential. That I didn't hold it against him... you can ask him yourself.

That's not the solution either, Matt should make this right, and you should give him the opportunity to do so!

<B>I'm sorry if I sound pissy but I'm hurt, on medication and in a foul mood.I'll probly never post on the Archives again anyway.
so, flame away.

</B>

No, I'm sorry, my criticism was hasty. Please stick around.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Servus!

Did Matt have the opportunity to give you a fitting? I am assuming that he didn't due to geographical challenges. This being the case, you must understand that trying to build armour for someone who's body shape you haven't seen results in armour that is "one size fits some" Even with body measurements, the subtle curvatures and other shape factors make it virtually impossible to make "tailor-fit" armour without being able to have multiple, in-person, fittings.

That being said, I feel that you are being unfair airing out your frustrations here on the Archive after you yourself stated:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">After all this.. I told Matt I would keep the armour and figure this out for myself and for him not to worry. In fact I sent him E-mail encouraging him not to quit or give up that he had potential. That I didn't hold it against him... you can ask him yourself</font>

How can you say to Matt (personally) that it's no problem and that you will take care of any deficiencies yourself and then turn around and complain about fit and finish, et al? If Matt has offered to take the suit back and correct the problems and you have not taken him up on his offer, than you should not come here and rail on issues that you refuse to have corrected.

As fo all of you who say that he has every right in the world to complain, he's the customer, etc. let me say this - it's not as if Matt said "hey, you paid for it and if it dosen't fit, it sucks to be you" He has, by Hal's own admission, offered to correct the problem - which Hal has not accepted.

I feel bad that Hal has been injured and that his investment is not what he had expected, but I don't feel that Matt has done anything more than make a mistake in fit and/or finish and has attempted to correct that error.




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Pax Vobiscum,

Herr Alexander

"So, there you have it, Clay. I think the real answer boils down to "Uhhh, I dunno." - from Maukaur - the greatest answer EVER given on the Archive.

Here's what I think is part of the problem: Matt has a full time job as well as his armoring, and this armor was build under a tight deadline. If Halloween said "give it to me when it's ready" or if Matt had said "you'll get it when it's ready" and not agreed on a tight deadline, or not accepted the contract for a specific date, then Matt would have had time to fix the problems. He's still honing his skills; the first one of anything you make is not going to be as good as the tenth one. Because unexpected problems cropped up he didn't have time to fix them properly. I personally don't do rush orders any more, even when people try to offer me more money (and sometimes it's very tempting).

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Dalewyn
Dalewyn@dbis.ns.ca
www.AlchemyArmory.com

[This message has been edited by Dalewyn (edited 10-31-2002).]

After looking at the close up pictures of said harness, I can see where a few of the lames are not rivetedin the correct postion.

The knee cops IMHO are dished fine. They dont need to be a full 90 degrees as you describe. A few hours with a rawhide mallet and a ball stake should cure most of the problems you are experiencing.
Matts welding does look sloppy, but if he is using a stick welder, it is very hard to weld thin plates very well. Nye impossible without years of practise.

Also how long did it take Matt to complete this entire harness? It would have taken me at least two years, including arming clothes to complete this. Maybe longer.

If I had the money I would buy this harness in a second regardless of its problems.

Ok guess I should post something.

First I'm really sorry Halloween has been hurt.

I did offer a full refund if he wanted to return the armour.

I also told him to let me know what he wanted to do and we would come to some mutually agreeable resolution.

Armourer Eric: If you can find a way to make things workable without costing a huge amount of money I'll compensate you. The only thing is that I'm broke so it'll take a little while before I can get it to you. So you'd have to trust me for it. I'll send you an e-mail.

Anyway halloween has been good about this. He can't be blamed for being upset.

Also I'll just note that Wombat made the arms I put more brass on them and put them together and re-did the rearbraces. Wombat had originally made the parts for the arms for me. Halloween and I are the same size according to his measurements so I finished the arms to save time since I had them. I did post this fact (that wombat was a big part of them) when I posted the pics of the arms a while back.

The full wrap was agreed on by both me and Halloween and obviously it's the fit that's the issue.
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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory


[This message has been edited by Mad Matt (edited 10-31-2002).]

First off, I'm not an armourer. Yeah I can toss links together and make some decent chain, butted, rivetted or Japanese, but thats nothing compared to those of you who make the "real" stuff...

All I can think of reading these posts are Hal and Matt. Hal's mad (and correctly so), and Matt, well I'm willing to bet Matt is crushed... We all know Matt's rather new to this whole thing and for the most part this is his first harness. No it's not perfect, and some would say far from it, but damn, I could NEVER make anything like it.

I'm sorry that Hal got hurt, but I'm sorry that Matt got hurt too... this is the kind of thing that can make some people just throw all their hammers away and say "to hell with this". I for one hope Matt keeps it up and someday is at the level that all his clients and all of us just say "Holy cripes, now that is the harness I want to wear"...

To BOTH Hal and Matt~
Don't let this sour your view on armouring/history/whatever. Realize you should view this as a learning experience. Even in history, they didn't get it right the first try. If they did William the Conqueror would have invaded England in full Gothic harness. Just stick with it, it may seem kinda crushing right now, but soon you will look back and know how to make it better next time.

Yeah, I think you said it well, Merlin - I feel for both Matt and Halloween. Halloween's woes are obvious, but I feel for Matt too.

It's obvious from the pictures, Matt, that a lot of effort went into the kit. My thought is that even though the kit looks impressive in whole the Devil, as they say, is in the details, and you may need to polish those details a bit more.

Hopefully you will be able to make it up to Halloween in time.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon

My sympathy to both parties involved. This is indeed a painful lesson for client and armourer.

I understand how sympathetic people are to Matt's efforts in this craft, but as a businessman, Matt committed to making a product in a certain amount of time without previous experience to realize fully what was involved. No matter how hard he worked, he sold his skills to a client, whithout the certainty to deliver a satisfactory product, or the time to ensure the chance to correct errors.

The client in this case, also committed to working with a craftsman making a product that exceeded anything that craftsman had made before. That involves some risk on his behalf.

I do not think it was inappropriate for a client to complain in front of this board. The deficiency of this product caused an injury, and that alone should be enough to alert any armourer about what responsibility they have in their craft. It should also alert clients about the importance of a reputable product.

Adair Orr

My heart goes out to both of you, Matt and Halloween.

I'm sorry that this happened, Halloween I understand that you are frustrated, on major medications (I'm on them too so I know how this at least must feel) and very depressed. I hope you feel better, and hope your injury heals quickly! Don't give up hope, your rig may be fixed yet; and if it isn't, it is just a party and there will be another next year (if not we'll try to throw one for you - right guys??). At the end of it all, you have a very beautiful harness that will be the envy of those around you.

Matt, my most sincere support, from artist to artist. I am a newbie armourer so I can only imagine what you must have gone through to make the harness, and we all know you were working hell and high water to make this happen. As many have said, it was a great accomplishment! Realize you have great skill, and perhaps you wish only to use that for your benefit, but there are those of us who would see what your great masterpieces will be (and perhaps have a chance to buy them )

Kind regards to both,
Jenna

Hy guys, I agree with Alexander and some of he first guys too post... I don't care what anyone says (respectivly) If you are not there too be in peron fitted... Dont expect a mircale bra fit.. My cousin hd a similar issue paid alotof money and got minorly hury with his 12th century harness and he personaly told the armourer as good as he was he did by no means expect it to fit that well... Its like having an artiss draw you blind... Im darkish skinn not too dark, 5'8'' and I have eyes and a mouth..

Doesnt exactly norrow it down.. An artist can only do what he can with a boy that isn't there.. Not too be mean but thats the simply truth.. Hell My friend Kevin made a maille shirt for himself and it doesn fit right let alone for someone 'invisble'

Through my cousin Darin, I've sen first hand how frustrating it could be spending alotof money and all, but he knew he wasnt there too be tailored..

Heel well
Jamin

I can't even get my own armour to fit myself just right on the first try! As this thread indicates its kinda common sence, that Armour is hard to fit, even in the best case senario. In a worst case (like we have here) the customer/buyer has to assume some risk!

Matt offered to make things right, and his offer was refused. IMHO I think he as done all that he can, and shouldent lose sleep over this whole mess.

However none of us know exactly what has been said between these two individuls (past or present), nor do we know the exact terms of the agreement. So its kinda hard to pass judgement.

John

I do wish everyone would drop the fit issue. Halloween was not unjured due to poor fit, it was due to poor articulation which is a design problem not a size problem. Most people buy armour that was not tailored to fit. How many of us have bought a stock piece of armour and even if it was a little off it worked well and didn't send us to the emergency room? I have talked to one of the armourers who has seen the kit first hand, and after praise for a tough job attempted and praise for much of the shaping, it was stated that the articulation needed major work. Again, Hal was not hurt by poor fit. Major gapping and lames that over articulate and blow out are not size issues.

I find this whole thing a little scary, but I have never had any problems with any armour I have ever bought(WMA, CLANG, GAA), but then again these are all well seasoned plate armourers.
I did notice that the knee lames seem to scissor together at the knee cap area! I wonder if that is what happened?