The Armour Archive

Could someone who knows a little more about this problem please provide some illumination?

My very first set of arms, many many moons and wars ago, worked perfectly. However, they were very old and the leather had begun to give way in several key spots. Since those first arms, I have not been able to reproduce full arms--through 4 different attempts--that will do the job for two reasons.

One, I have ridiculously pointy elbows. Two, I have ridiculously long forearms for a girl. Also, I have slender wrists in comparison to the musle next to my elbow (I have no idea what the technical name for that muscle is).

I cannot seem to get my elbows to stay up, and I can't seem to get coverage AND mobility out of my vambraces. My knight marshal, Basil, suggested that I use a floating elbow instead of a full arm. My house brother Hammish suggested that I wear a padded shirt with the elbows sewn to it and separate vambraces.

Any help would be greatly, overwhelmingly appreciated.

The problems regarding fit imply that you need to find an armorer that will do a custom fit for you. This will take care of the sizing issues. If you're not off the rack size, you can't wear off the rack armor.

I could never get my elbows to stay put. They always wanted to slide down my arms.

The only thing I could ever get to work was to have over-long vambraces (which reduce mobility). With the elbow soundly fixed to the vam, and the vam riding on my wrist, they didn't slide.

Probably a better alternative would be to have vams that stopped an inch or so short of my wrist bones. And then fill in that space with a densly padded cuff. Elbows ride on the vams, vams ride on the thick cuff, cuff rides on the wrist.

Pointing the elbows, etc. to a well fitted arming coat should work as well. A sloppily fitted foundation garment will probably not help you out here, you would need something pretty much custom tailored.

Step one, for your safety, if you have pointly elbows you should also have pointy elbow cops. We all have pointy elbows but some of us are gifted by mother nature in the excessive winter insulation department and it is not such a big deal. You should look into pointier then average elbows or find a competent armorer in your area who can custom fit you. Pointly elbows are IMHO easier to articulate properly.

Step two arms should be pointed to a foundation garment. Diameter of your wrist, forearm, upper arm or anything similar is irrelevant. A well made foundation garment moves like a second skin. Well fitted armor pointed to a well made foundation garment moves like a tatoo on second skin.

Step 3 coverage AND mobility usually comes from good articulation. When judging a pair of elbows it should NOT be curved so it fits your knee (and knees should not fit on your head). It should fit the location it was designed for. Articulation rives should be on the SIDES and pointed mostly towards each other (about 160 degrees apart) not on the front and 90 degrees apart. If you feel for the two bumps on either side of your elbow (medial and lateral epicondyles) the rivets should be about this far up AFTER you put the elbow on over a pad. An elbow should hyper-extend slightly when straight and colapse to 135 to 160 degrees when bent. Period armor flexes less then SCA sport armor. If you NEED more range of motion with the same coverage you might consider an extra lame (but you shouldn't need it).

Just my $0.02

Sean

Hey
Sounds like your problem is gravity.

You need to point the arms to an arming garment. The half arms with the floating cop will work..... if you point the cop to an arming garment.

Get a hold of Tim (Anshelm) Morris or Bob (Gaston) Hurley they know the right of it.

I have many fine fine relatives in your area, some are knowledegeable on the ways of medieval protective gear some are not. But ya know all of em will try and help ya.

BTW saw Kelson of Stormriver at Pennsic. He's doing good.

Murdock, you are in trouble. You were at Pennsic and didn't stop by to say hi? Good grief.

I haven't spoken to Bob for along time, although I know he prowls around on here sometimes. I don't believe I know this Anshelm fella you're talking about. Is he from Thor's Mountain?

The more I look at the problem and draw it out, it seems that the points are going to be the thing. I think I can reinforce it with leather, but I'm not sure. What sort of rivets would I use? Buttonheads or regular copper rivets? Seems like copper rivets would cut whatever fabric they were in.

Ldy Rhiannon wrote:Murdock, you are in trouble. You were at Pennsic and didn't stop by to say hi? Good grief.

I haven't spoken to Bob for along time, although I know he prowls around on here sometimes. I don't believe I know this Anshelm fella you're talking about. Is he from Thor's Mountain?

The more I look at the problem and draw it out, it seems that the points are going to be the thing. I think I can reinforce it with leather, but I'm not sure. What sort of rivets would I use? Buttonheads or regular copper rivets? Seems like copper rivets would cut whatever fabric they were in.

I may be misunderstanding, but this reads as though you are planning to rivet to the garment... ? Points are ties - the armour is tied to the garment, typically through eyelet holes that are better made by pushing through the fabric and moving the threads of the weave aside, then buttonhole stitching around the hole to keep it open. Stronger this way than when you punch a hole in the fabric and finish it with either stitching or a metal eyelet.

Gavin

Just for the heck of it
Hold your arm straight out inside of the elbow up, palm up.
Most women have a serious "jog" from the sholder to the wrist, the elbow itself is frequently completely out of the line from center sholder to center wrist. If this is the case for you make sure your armorer allows for how your arm is actually shaped rather than making a somewhat small sized mens arm harness for you

Bazubands?

mordreth wrote:Just for the heck of it
Hold your arm straight out inside of the elbow up, palm up.
Most women have a serious "jog" from the sholder to the wrist, the elbow itself is frequently completely out of the line from center sholder to center wrist. If this is the case for you make sure your armorer allows for how your arm is actually shaped rather than making a somewhat small sized mens arm harness for you

Wow. You're right. Never noticed before. Duh, Rhiannon. That makes alot more sense now. Just call me Lady Oblivious.

Audax, I've thought about trying to make the bazubands. However, the only pattern I can find is Cariadoc's and it involves wetting and stretching leather, which I would be very afraid I would screw up horribly.

You gotta go with 15th century arms. Nice pretty set of couters( the sexiest of pointy elbows) and simple 3/4 wrap upper and lower arms. You don't have to worry about the "jog" in the line of your arm because the upper arm, couter, and lower arm are all held together by leather articulation, and do the pointing to your armour garment.
15th century is soooo wonderfully perfect
gruber

While I appreciate the subtleties of later armor, I'm a tad earlier than that. That and I don't think my lord has ever thought pointy elbows were sexy.

Kilkenny wrote:I may be misunderstanding, but this reads as though you are planning to rivet to the garment... ? Points are ties - the armour is tied to the garment, typically through eyelet holes that are better made by pushing through the fabric and moving the threads of the weave aside, then buttonhole stitching around the hole to keep it open. Stronger this way than when you punch a hole in the fabric and finish it with either stitching or a metal eyelet.

Gavin

It is also helpful to put a small piece of leather with 2 holes in it on the inside of the arming point to keep it from pulling through the garment.

" Murdock, you are in trouble. You were at Pennsic and didn't stop by to say hi? Good grief."

It's not like i'm easy to miss on the field. Other than fighting i was generally chasing the baby the rst of the time. It was a busy Pennsic.

"I haven't spoken to Bob for along time, although I know he prowls around on here sometimes." Yeah i miss Bob.

" I don't believe I know this Anshelm fella you're talking about. Is he from Thor's Mountain?" Yes i do believe he is, he'll be a KFC in Iron Mt this weekend, he's a heavy set fella witha a beard that does the 14 c MAFIA look and has like 35 children .

"The more I look at the problem and draw it out, it seems that the points are going to be the thing. I think I can reinforce it with leather, but I'm not sure. What sort of rivets would I use? Buttonheads or regular copper rivets? Seems like copper rivets would cut whatever fabric they were in. "

Stich the points or else the rivits will pull through and probly cut you.

Ldy Rhiannon wrote: That and I don't think my lord has ever thought pointy elbows were sexy.

Pretty to look at, but maybe not so nice to -- {oorphgh!}