I'm in need of some help-with leather

[Armoured Air Bear]

Hi all,
I'm about to start several leather projects while I'm still on Christmas break and I'm in need of some help.

I want to tool a nice 14th century belt (swordbelt or just a common waist belt) and I want to tool a period design on it. does anyone have some sources that they could show me or that I could look into? I've heard of one with some tooled dogs on it, but I've never seen it.

Also I'm going to tool a leather shield face, but I don't have my coat of arms figured out yet, but I really want to make a shield. so what kind of 14th century designs could I put on it? I'm thinking mabey some religions stuff, or mabey like a huge hawk or something. again any sources that you could show me or that I could look into would help.

Also some leather pouches/backpacks (if they existed) and kidney bags. patterns for tooling or just a picture/drawing of the bag itself.

When I start these projects I will take some progress pictures.

Thanks,

Aaron

BTW would someone be willing to post some pictures of my past work if I emailed them to you? cause I always mess up the picture quality trying to resize

BTW- Murdock, I got your little leather tooled shield done (except for paint), but I'm not to happy with it. next time you're at Rob's I'll show it to you and see what you think. (I'll probably just make another one)

[Konstantin the Red]

Aaron, this is one point where Ashdown is a good source; he has several copies of funeral brasses of the latest third of the fourteenth century with good detail of the tooling on the knights' belts, all different.

It would be swivel-knife work. There are some floral/repeating panel stamps that do for gothic style at a pinch, if you're willing to accept a certain artistic neutrality -- that is, they will do, but don't trumpet "gothic."

The manner of the art is gothic, so try searching on "gothic art" and see what that yields. I'll try it myself and see, too...

[edit] It yields the idea that a good thing to look for is manuscripts of the fourteenth and early fifteenth -- have a look at the illuminations' backgrounds and at the floral motifs. Gothic artists ran a lot to ivy leaves.

Wait on the shield face; I used scrapbin-priced, garment-weight chrome-tanned leather dyed yellow and dyed green, pieced together and one piece appliquéed on, by sewing, to display my approved device, quite a few years after it passed Laurel. This not only prettified, but also ballasted my aluminum shield blank to a weight like a wooden shield. Using expensive tooling leather this way would, I think, be money dubiously spent, especially on something the size of a heater. Simple, linear, border-type tooling lines are something more often seen on Highland targes. Remember this is something that gets heavily beaten on, scuffed, and marked up with tape goo. A tooling project would pretty much go to waste here. Tool your guige strap and elbow strap if you want to get this ornate -- there's beauty, and the project won't get mauled in the regular course of its use!

Pouch flaps can stand tooling. Again, study on art of the century the pouch hails from to get a feel for the artistic style prevailing in the decorative arts in that decade.

There was a Dover art book on gothic art, decoration, and style, that I would like to find a copy of some day; I'm not sure if they still have it in print. I don't doubt that most of the book is actually Victorian Gothic Revival -- the kind of décor found in haunted-house movies, in heavy, dark wood -- but it would still do nicely as a guide to motifs.

Another dead-tree-format reference is the softback The Grammar Of Ornament, an early twentieth century book in reprint form from Barnes & Noble.

[Armoured Air Bear]

Thanks for the help.

By Ashdown do you mean the author Charles Henry Ashdown (I think that's his name). the book that barns and Nobles reprinted back in around 1995? I've got it so I'll look into it.

right now I'm looking up gothic art-I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks again, and I'll hopefully get some pics up when I start.

Aaron

[Murdock]

Check the belts in Gaston Phebos

Mandrake had some that e based off real belts, you cloud loot into those.


As for mine i'll take a look Probly Wednesday.

[Konstantin the Red]

Murdock, "cloud loot," aye...

Aaron, that's the one. The line drawings in C.H. Ashdown vary considerably in quality, but the drawings based on brasses are among the good ones.

[Kilkenny]

Aaron, this is one point where Ashdown is a good source; he has several copies of funeral brasses of the latest third of the fourteenth century with good detail of the tooling on the knights' belts, all different.

It would be swivel-knife work. There are some floral/repeating panel stamps that do for gothic style at a pinch, if you're willing to accept a certain artistic neutrality -- that is, they will do, but don't trumpet "gothic."

The manner of the art is gothic, so try searching on "gothic art" and see what that yields. I'll try it myself and see, too...

[edit] It yields the idea that a good thing to look for is manuscripts of the fourteenth and early fifteenth -- have a look at the illuminations' backgrounds and at the floral motifs. Gothic artists ran a lot to ivy leaves.

I'll agree that looking at manuscript illuminations is an excellent way to get a "feel" for the aesthetic sense of a time and place.

I'll differ just a bit with regard to "swivel-knife work". To the best of my knowledge there's absolutely no reason to believe that swivel knives existed anywhere during the middle ages or rennaisance. This doesn't mean one cannot do incised work as part of one's tooling. I've been doing all of mine for awhile now with one or the other of a pair of small knives made for me by a friend - no swivels involved.

I don't know what the tools used by medieval leather craftsmen looked like, so I can't say whether the knives I'm using are similar to the ones they used. I can say that these are entirely plausible constructs, while we know the swivel knife is not.

Just a side bar

Gavin

[Armoured Air Bear]

Thanks, I'll have to look into the Gaston Pheobus book.

As for swivel knifing- well I like to use swivel knives (especially my ceramic blade with great ball bearings/cast brass yoke/wide barrel) -my favorite swivel knife. I don't think that they had swivel knives per-say but I am thinking that they had knives very similar to them- mabey a swivel knife that does'nt swivel. does this make sense? or more likley something along the lines of a forged exacto knife.

just my $0.02

Aaron

[Kilkenny]

Thanks, I'll have to look into the Gaston Pheobus book.

As for swivel knifing- well I like to use swivel knives (especially my ceramic blade with great ball bearings/cast brass yoke/wide barrel) -my favorite swivel knife. I don't think that they had swivel knives per-say but I am thinking that they had knives very similar to them- mabey a swivel knife that does'nt swivel. does this make sense? or more likley something along the lines of a forged exacto knife.

just my $0.02

Aaron

The two that I use are about the length of a swivel knife - I can put a finger on top as one does with a swivel knife if I wish. The blades are across the end, chisel fashion but somewhat angled - similar in many ways to swivel knife blades.

I like the narrower of these more than the wider one - but then I've always been partial to the narrower blades for my carving.

I have a ceramic blade in a decent handle - and have found for some time now that I actually prefer the straight one piece knife over it.

I think it's a matter of personal preference, little more. I doubt anyone could reliably tell the difference between a carved line made with a knife like mine and one made with a swivel knife

Gavin

[Konstantin the Red]

I see you guys have already settled the matter, and I think you're right. The swivel knife is simply how we do this nowadays.

Happy New Year!

[Armoured Air Bear]

Kilkenny- cool. Do you have any pics of the knives that you use?

funny- I always use a narrow blade for everything too.

what are your thoughts on the other tools they used? (bevelers, backgroung, pears...)

Also does anyone have any sources where the leather is undercut in the tooling? as undercutting is my specialyty, I would like to use it on some medieval stuff.


Thank you,

Aaron

[Jess]

*****
I really want to make a shield. so what kind of 14th century designs could I put on it? I'm thinking mabey some religions stuff, or mabey like a huge hawk or something. again any sources that you could show me or that I could look into would help.
*****

I have had great luck with simply reproducing portions of illuminations as shield designs. I looked through the books I had, some were armor, some history, some costuming, and some were art books, until I found a scene or element of a design that I thought would look cool on the face of a shield. You can see pics here:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ht=#759510

The great thing is with 14th century art, it is still sort of crude, so you do not have to have a lot of skill with proportion or shading to make it look great.

[Maeryk]

I see you guys have already settled the matter, and I think you're right. The swivel knife is simply how we do this nowadays.

The vast majority of my "learning" work was done with an Exacto knife, actually.

Swivel knives are nice.. especially if you are doing the Al Stohlman style grand sweeping flowers and compound curves and such. But for what we typically do, I've found an exacto (or even a decently sharp small knife.. like a paring knife) to work fine, as long as the leather is properly cased, and you take your time.

As far as stamps go.. you _can_ make your own, most likely as they did.. the trick is to use really good stainless with as low an iron content as possible, and polish the thing six ways from sunday to keep your leather from turning black.

[Kilkenny]

Kilkenny- cool. Do you have any pics of the knives that you use?

funny- I always use a narrow blade for everything too.

what are your thoughts on the other tools they used? (bevelers, backgroung, pears...)

Also does anyone have any sources where the leather is undercut in the tooling? as undercutting is my specialyty, I would like to use it on some medieval stuff.


Thank you,

Aaron

In a thread about someone's take on the archer's bracer from the Mary Rose, there was mention of period tooling not involving beveling and the background work all being done with a small diameter tube. I haven't had many chances to look closely at actual period pieces, so I really don't know.

I do know that some period work looks alot more like Sheridan style carving than I would ever have expected. Acanthus leaves tooled in leather have a tendency to look similar, whether done yesterday for a gun holster or 500 years ago to hold a hunting horn.

Gavin

[Murdock]

Murdock, "cloud loot," aye...

yeah

i type like crap

spell bad too

[RenJunkie]

Sheridan style carving? Please, what is the difference between that and the Stohlman style? I've only ever seen Stohlman instructionals.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Kilkenny]

Sheridan style carving? Please, what is the difference between that and the Stohlman style? I've only ever seen Stohlman instructionals.

Thanks,
Christopher

http://www.rosaddlery.com/fendertooling.shtml Mr. Ross gives some insight into the style and some examples of the look.

I'm not refined enough in my appreciation to reliably recognize "Sheridan" versus other American West type styles. I'm not sure that I've ever seen any reference to a Stohlman style, although there are certainly more instructional texts from Al Stohlman than anyone else I know of with the result that his techniques and methods are very influential.

Gavin

[Armoured Air Bear]

Thanks again for the help.

BTW I'm probably gonna be starting a project today- so I'll see if I can get some pics up later this week.

Aaron