Why is Black Prince coat sleeveless? for mail sleeves?

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:42 am

Suddently dawned on me....why is this thing short sleeved? Were voiders/sleeves once attached?

[img]http://alliance.medieval.ru/papers/jacks/black_prince_1376.jpg[/img]

[img]http://people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/ArmingCoat/pix/BPrinceCote.jpg[/img]

or was it worn thus:

[img]http://alliance.medieval.ru/papers/jacks/italy_1380.jpg[/img]

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:29 am

Well, there is some discussion over whether or not it originally had long sleeves. some say that it originally had long sleeves-like a lentner. while others say it was short sleeved-becuse it is now. I'm not sure I understand your question though? are you thinking that this was originally used as a gambeson? In my opinion (and some others) this was used a lentner (with short or long sleeves) to be worn over his armour just like in the feeigy. although if I am correct his effigy does not have any sleeves at all.

Hope this helps, and I will be on this thread later,

Aaron

BTW sorry if I did'nt understand your question.

miscreant · Post by **miscreant** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:32 am

The Black Prince had numerous surcoats made for himself (since he could afford it), and it seems that this one particular surcoat was a 'ceremonial' coat worn over the armor on special occasions. It's thought that one that he would have worn in battle at let's say Crecy or Poitiers would have been sleeveless for less constriction in the heat of action.
Cantebury has a festival, I believe every year, where a gentleman playing the part of Prince Edward, wears a replica of this coat over his armor for the parade.
I've added a few more pics of his personal items that were more for show, parade, tourney, etc.

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:53 pm

Interesting.

Armoured Air Bear

Well one of the problems I think exists is the fact there can be a fine line between an arming coat (under) vs. gambeson type (over) approach for the late 14th century/early 15th century...and/or whether it might have been a more cermonial/civilian vs. a something truly worn.

In other words, the similarities between the various late 14th century padded garments that mimic war garments and/or the other way around can be tricky to discern on a wide spread level.

The lack of any substantial extant/remaining arming coats, doublets from the 14th and early 15th century is equally frustrating. Same with the terminology that is continually interchanged. One man says arming coat...another says gambeson...another says doublet. And they all say theyre correct, depending on modern parlance....or period one. Rather like armor vs. armour vs. panzer.