16 Gauge Mild Steel Is Plenty!

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:09 pm

Well, let me just say this...

First, I recomend Medieval Swordsmanship, by John Clements. I warn you, some will not like what it says, but every bit if experimentation and reference to period text I have come across supports him.

Second, do the physics. Compare psi of a 1 1/4 inch stick hitting you next to the same f=ma of a sword edge, (use 1/100 of an inch for ease)if the amount of force being used in the SCA is right, they shouldn't be much different.

Third, with the entire body as a target, putting your whole body into a shot doesn't work as well. You will find that your shins are being cut to pieces while you try. Also, please look again at the cavalry example above.

Oh, and remember that swords didn't cut through plate armour very well, and everyone in the SCA is SUPPOSED to be calibrated off of chainmail and an open faced helm.

If you still don't believe me, go do some test cutting. Get a real, quality sword and cut some stuff, (I reccommend wearing gauntlets and full armour while you do this, ESPECIALLy if you are not used to cutting with a flat blade). Here's a fun game. Make a basic great helm out of 16 guage, with breaths and several small holes along the bottom edge. Get a pumpkin, watermellon, etc. that will fit into the helm, pad it and place them, (produce inside the helm) on a verticle log. Drive some nails, (nails are better than grabber screws) through the holes you made at the bottom. Now, hit the helm with the same force you would if it were your local sparring partner. most people will find that they have wounded/killed their opponent quite well and the grip and hilt of their sword is now loose and rattling in thier hand, if the blade survived, (cheap blades won't) You've just ruined a sword which if you were a knight in period, consists of a large portion of your yearly income.

Now, take a sword and cut through some meat with bone left in using about half the force you would in the SCA. You will find the meat cleaved, bones cut or broken and your sword in perfect condition ready to cut some more.

Let me also point out that there is a difference between hitting fast and clean, and hitting with bone crushing force. ONe is period, one is most likely not.

Adrian

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 12:22 am

Have you ever been in a fight for your life???

I guess not, because if you had you would know that you hit as fast and as hard as you possibly can, because there is no second chance in your mind. You panic and try to kill anything between you and survival.

Nope, swords don't cut through plate well at all, as a matter of fact they don't cut through chain well at all either. Many swords were not razor sharp either, and were rather more of a focused club than a cutting weapon. Yes, I have done numerous cutting tests. Yes I have even worn the helm while hit hard in it by a sword. Through chain you would get bruised and maybe break a bone only if you were hit extremely hard with a sword.

Warriors wore armour for a reason, they were the super heroes of their day. You don't carry around 80 pounds of armour if it's easy to defeat.

You can dance with your opponent or kill him, it's up to you.

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:27 am

Ahhhhh, thank you.

About once a year I have to have this discussion with someone to remind me why I keep researching and experimenting.

While my credentials and research I'm sure will be ignored, please let me just say this.

While I do enjoy dancing, as any gentleman should, my goals on the battlefield are much different.

My goal is to be involved in fighting that is as close to historical accuracy as possible. The SCA is just not it, even though I thought it was when I started. It took looking at experiments and research for what they were telling me rather than looking for what I wanted to see to change my mind.

Adrian

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 12:32 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paladin:
I guess not, because if you had you would know that you hit as fast and as hard as you possibly can, because there is no second chance in your mind. You panic and try to kill anything between you and survival.

Sorry, forgot to address this point. Please excuse the cynicism...

GEEE, I thought that was what TRAINING was all about, keeping you from "panicking". But maybe only "super heroes" can stay calm.

Adrian

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:05 pm

Well if you had been in combat before, or even known those who have been, you would know that when the poop hits the fan everyone is scared.

When in the thick of a real confrontation, training does not prevent you from the fight or flight response. When you choose to fight it does not mean you are calm, not at all.

Perhaps you've watched too many episodes of Kung Fu and assume that trained people are calm in combat. I have been in more altercations that I would like, and have been a martial artist for over 14 years. The purpose of training is to make actions instinctual, because in actual combat there is no time to stop and think what technique you will use next.

When someone is shooting at you or swinging a weapon at you with intent to do you real harm, you are not calm. Ask someone who's been in war, or perhaps your local cop.

This is simple truth, known by just about anyone who's been in a street fight let alone battle.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:19 pm

Anvil Dragon,

I may well have missed it but I don't recall you submitting either your credentials or your research for anyone here to ignore.

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thaddeus:
I haf fotted inna 16gaje hlemut fer yearZ sand years and hav no trubles whutsovere!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HA ha HA ha HA (Wipe tears from eyes)

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 8:18 pm

Quoted from Paladin..

"Nope, swords don't cut through plate well at all, as a matter of fact they don't cut through chain well at all either. Many swords were not razor sharp either, and were rather more of a focused club than a cutting weapon. Yes, I have done numerous cutting tests. Yes I have even worn the helm while hit hard in it by a sword. Through chain you would get bruised and maybe break a bone only if you were hit extremely hard with a sword."

I happen to have a sword that is not sharp at all. I have used it at full speed and strenth(as if in a real battle) and have cut though chain and plate both. Maybe they way I conducted my test may be different but it seems to me that chain or plate would only resist cutting but can be cut none the less. But I am only a beginner at this and do not now the full facts.

Grendal.

mr_luc · Post by **mr_luc** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lorenzo2:
My great grandfather remembered when bare knuckle boxing was all the rage. This sport no longer exists due to the number of injuries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No longer exists?

DOH!

Chuck Davis · Post by **Chuck Davis** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by grendal:
Quoted from Paladin..

I happen to have a sword that is not sharp at all. I have used it at full speed and strenth(as if in a real battle) and have cut though chain and plate both.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it riveted maille or just butted? I've seen sword tests agains butted maille and it either tears or cuts. But, tests agains riveted maille at the Arms and Armour symposium in Minneapolis 2000, could not get through. We had to take a bec-de-corbin to get through.
-Cad

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 1:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cet:
Anvil Dragon,

I may well have missed it but I don't recall you submitting either your credentials or your research for anyone here to ignore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be truthful, I didn't. I've found that (regardless of topic) if a person is convinced that they are right and unwilling to listen to anything with an open mind it is pointless.

But for those interested:
20 years in the metal work industry.
Studied under a total of three blacksmiths and one of the better welders in the West before striking out on my own as a blacksmith. I've spent the last three years working at a medieval Living History Museum. During this time, I was able to spend a lot of time on the clock making armour and cutting it to pieces. My free time was spent reading and researching. That's what happens when you don't have cable. I have built swords starting with an ingot and moving to a finished product, just for a better understanding of what tools would have been involved medievaly. Since it's late I'm tired and a long winded person, I'll stop there.

As for fighting... and fighting while someone intends to harm me...

I am not,and have never been in the US Armed forces and I'm not even going to pretend that I understand the psychology modern war situation. I have a great deal of respect for the people who do. As for having bullets whizzing by me, yep. Growing up, it happened a lot. Because of where my family's home was situated, bullets came our direction regularly, but I didn't run and hide I yelled or shot back. I've been in fights where the other guy braught knives brass knuckles etc., and have even pulled one knife out of my leg when it was all said and done. More industrial accidents than I care to mention, and the simple truth is it's amazing that I'm still around. So yes, I have fought for my life numerous times, and when it was all said and done I looked back, said a few choice words and called it a "scary" situation. But I cannot think of a time since I hit puberty that I panicked when the preasure was on.

Adrian

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 1:07 pm

Why bother with swords.
During plate armour's main era, swords were actually second or third used weapons.
Plate armour's main purpose was against pole weapons, axes, maces, flails, and even crude clubs.
These will generally dent, crush, and crack plate.
So, when speaking of swords, remember, most were actually last ditch weapons, after the Knight or soldier dropped or lost his "SMASHER".

------------------
FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 1:13 pm

Actually, to be honest, the only reason the sword was even carried in later years of plate, was as a symbol of honor, and if you really want to get REAL, decapitating prisoners.

------------------
FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 2:06 pm

"...the only reason the sword was even carried in later years of plate, was as a symbol of honor..."

Remember that the 14th and 15th centuries were the time of infantry; there were VERY few fully armoured men on the field compared to the number of poorly or unarmoured infantry. Most swords didn't have to go against plate, as most of the targets weren't protected. Check out the studies of the battlefield injuries at Wisby. You'll understand.

It's true, swords were not a primary weapon during this time, but they still had plenty of useful purpose, especially for thrusting, which is the best way to get around plate anyway. Masters such as Lichtenauer and Fiore don't waste time telling you how to cut plate, they go straight for the thrust, preferrably with two hands. I have a feeling they knew trying to cut plate was pointless. (no pun intended)

Actually, based on my research, it seems that swords still saw plenty of use on the field, there were just a lot more other weapons that worked better for the job of killing, namely pollarms and archery, as well as axes, hammers, maces, etc. They did such a better job at greater range (in some cases) and were cheaper to make that it didn't make sense to damage a sword so much. Right tool for the right job, no?

------------------
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer, Historic Arms & Armour
http://www.historicenterprises.com
Maitre of The Red Company-1471
http://www.theredcompany-1471.org

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 2:34 pm

Hi everyone, this is Adrian's wife. Usually I stay out of this sort of thing, but he's been reading me the posts from this Paladin creature and I have to reply.

First and foremost, I do NOT fight heavy in the SCA. NEVER. I have no desire to be put through a meat grinder, especially by someone who thinks he has to hit me harder than he would a man just because I'm a woman. How's that for sexist and completley unchivalric? This is a frequent view among SCA fighters. It does have one unintended implication though. It implies that the women who can take these shots ARE TOUGHER THAN THE "MEN" (the term "men" being used in the broadest possible sense) DEALING THE SHOTS. Congratulations, you have just shown yourself to be a wuss.

As for my fighting experience, I did Kyokushinkai karate. I would love to get back into it but the nearest dojo is about 4 hours away. I loved it. I love the art form (ie kata), I loved the exercise, I loved the self-defense training, I loved the mental training. You claim to have 14 years experience in martial arts. If you really did, then you would know that a well-trained fighter does NOT panic. There is a huge difference between being on an adrenaline rush and panicking. Ever heard the term, "mushin?" It means "no mind" or "no thought," basically saying that the mind somewhat detaches from the body and lets it run on automatic, in other words, letting the body perform the trained functions, which by now should be second nature. One should be able to fight hard to win, but at the same time, one should be able to find holes in the enemy's defense and take advantage of them. These abilites are both taught in any proper dojo. When one panics, both are impossible. When one panics, one forgets any training, which means that skill goes out the window.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paladin:
[B]"In the real middle ages these people would have probably been archers, or siege oporators, or... but in our modern world they wish to participate in a HOBBY -note the word HOBBY!! I'm all for being gung ho and such, but some of you take this way too seriously!"

No, in the middle ages, ALL MEN had to fight. Boys and men of all ages, even the old ones. One could not be picky about age and ability or lack thereof, all were needed in battle. In a lot of areas there was a shortage of numbers, which means that one could not be so discriminating.

oh, and I guess that the issue of ONE HUNDRED POUND LONGBOWS and the STRENTH IT TAKES TO USE ONE has already been stressed...

-Then I say let them go be archers, siege opperators, or better yet, go play with light weapons. There are tons of medievalesque games that go half speed and don't really involve hitting other people, let alone hard.

You seem to have a real problem with people who would rather put on a diplay of skill rather than brute force, seemingly your obsession. If you have any training at all, you would know that the harder one hits, the more finesse and control one loses to do so. Basically, people who hit that hard have lost the ability to control their shots and look like flailing idiots that they are.

***The entire idea that "everyone should be able to play" is simply BS. Why should everyone be able to play? To cater to the 12" bicept club? To cater to every person who doesn't want to train and work out? I think not.

You obviously have no hesitation in discriminating against other people. Smaller people who use their proper training can be just as devastating or even more so that someone of larger stature. That's where the mental training comes in. One lacks the proper mental traning and discipline when one only focuses on brute force.

More about the discrimination issue. Those with disabilities who still want to play are protected by law in this modern society if the group wants to get or maintain tax-exempt status. The group faces serious lawsuits that they have essentially no chance of winning unless they let these people play. The challenge is finding something they CAN do and have fun doing so. There was a guy in my dojo that has some obvious physical limitations/handicaps. He literally could not do all of the things that we could. So the sensei modified the exercises so that there are things that he COULD do. I worked with this guy a lot, since people of mind like you were freaked out by him. The first time I did, I was caught off-guard by some of these modifications. He did them well and learned how to cause pain. He did not have full movement in his arms but he did have sharp elbows and he could use them. I had to learn to get around them but others like you had to be forced to work with him since it was not fair that I be the only one to do so. So yes, people not like you can still be able to participate and should be allowed to do so.

This game is the last bastion for full force armoured combat, it needs not to be degraded into some "play" thing to please the geekdom. Next thing we'll be doing is rolling dice to see who wins the tournament.

I am somewhat of a geek myself, I know a lot about computers and am interested in things like chemistry, physics, and other more intelligent pursuits. I am also interested in art, music, foreign languages, martial arts, and exercise, running, karate and belly dancing being my main interests. I do not appreciate your gross overgeneralizations.

And speaking of rolling dice to determine the winner, it actually sounds like a more chivalric way in the SCA than present methods. Since fighting is "on your honor" (snort) and no one tells you if the shot is good or not, "rhinohiding" is prevalent. It seems that fewer and fewer in the SCA do NOT buy into that crap. For those who are not familiar with this term, it refers to the act of telling your adversary that he or she did not hit you hard enough even though the shot was hard and in some cases nearly knocks you over. Thus, your hide must be as tough as that of a rhinocerous, otherwise that already way-too-hard shot would have been good enough to hurt you, even though it probably did and you just so happen to be too chicken to admit it.

So the current methods of SCA tounaments have some major flaws. The rhinohiding, which leads to harder hits, the lack of honor and skill displayed on the field otherwise softer and less dangerous hits would be acceptable... You fail to realize that an actual sword does NOT need anywhere near as much force as a silly stick of rattan in order to cause damage. The average stick of rattan is about an inch and a quarter around, something to that effect, right? The blade of a sword is something in the mills, a mill being one one-thousandth of one inch. I will spare you the technical talk and say it this way: take the analogy of stiletto heels versus snow shoes. Snow shoes, since they are so large, spread out the force (downward pressure obviously) over a much larger area than high heels. Therefore, when one wears snowshoes, one can walk on the top of the snow instead of sinking quickly into it. To most of you this will make sense, it is the reason why that the SCA hits much harder than was done in period tournements. Not only that, the fact that the shots were good was obvious. When your armor is literally torn by a sword and you have blood spewing out of you, you have no choice but to accept the hits. You can pretend in the SCA that the shots were not good and that the dents were already there. Insert serious lack of honor here, which DID exist in medieval tournaments. In fact, honor was much more important than how many times you could hit your opponent. The SCA has very little concept of this.

---Harsh but true, this is the closest thing we have to an actual sport representing broadsword and other fighting.

No it is NOT. Try live-steel re-enactment sometime, it does actually exist. Oh, and you may want to do some research.

---Play acting is one thing, being able to actually unleash on another man is what takes us closer to the warrior spirit.

You mean testosterone overload. If you think that a medieval tournament, or even a war (for your own safety leave out the honor and chivalry but do take the shots you are dealt, serving your enemy tea will get you killed), is anything like in the SCA, you have been brainwashed. The SCA is just a pissing contest, even in the way that the Arts and Sciences are run. It is just plain pathetic. I would know, I was in the SCA for several years. It is disgusting really. It makes all the good people there look bad, but because they are good people they lose out in terms of who sets the rules.

---Being able to do so and still maintain a code of conduct and honor, that is Chivalry.

There is very little honor and chivalry in the SCA anymore. See the rhinohiding references. Happens all the time in SCA wars too. There are a few exceptions, but unfortunately they do not fight anymore for their own safety. Smart choice really. And the honorable ones still in the SCA are getting drowned out by these arrogant people on an ego trip. The SCA is not fun anymore, even for a non-combattant (ok, so I did so some light fighting for a while) because of people like this. People need to remember that the SCA is a GAME, not reality.

---The difference is walking the walk as compared to pretending to walk it.

I repeat, all medi and Ren re-enactments are pretend, not reality. It is nice to try to achieve authenticity, but you still have to go back to your cars and modern houses, jobs, tvs, bills, and other aspects of mundane life. And if your walk is being a pompous, arrogant, and ignorant rhinohide, I am not impressed. That kind of walk is only pretend anyway, since the truly skilled, gifted, and chivalric people never spout themselves off like that.

---Talk with the "old timers" as I have and you will seethat the game was never intended to be a game of touch or tap.

No, it was never intended to be true to historical times. It started as a backyard party, for fun and not for accuracy. As a game it did catch on, however, and the first helms used were ALUMINUM FREON CANS. These "helms" would never hold up to the shots in the SCA today. That indicates that whereas shots may not have been your average love pats, they could NOT have been that hard.

---I have spoken long with Richard the Short(1st king/duke of the SCA) about this and the current game of flick fighting is not what was intended. He, as well as many of us, believe that the game is much more than pretend, and is an activity to test the metal of men and their skill and might. The game was never about pretending to defeat your opponent, it was about beating him and hitting him.

It did not start out as brutal as it is today. Plain and simple. The old "knights" absolutely can NOT admit this, otherwise, people will think of them as wimps and unknightly. And yes, the goal has always been to win, that is common in any tournament in any time period. HOW one wins is the real question though.

***If you can't hit with sufficient force I suggest working out, practicing, and wielding something a bit more stout. Otherwise there's light weapons, boffers, or comic conventions for you. But please don't try to dilute the fun and power of our sport/game because you are not willing to work hard or are not physically up to the challenge. It's like asking professional athletes to to play down at your level because you don't want to or are unable to compete at their level.

I simply cannot believe how closed minded you are. You are on a power trip just to see how hard you can hit someone else, that is your sole focus. This takes no skill or mental discipline. Comparing yourself to a professional athlete is pointless, they have to be skilled and smart, you prefer not to be. There is just no comparison in that.

***Edit:

And BTW, whomever thinks that tournaments were some gentle affair needs to re-examine their thoughts. The romanticism of later centuries plays things off much cleaner than they actually were. In my reading about tournaments, particularly in the William Marshall days, they were no pleasant affairs, people were always injured and often maimed/killed. These were very serious affairs and very serious times. Many people lost their lives, horses, harnesses, fame and fortune on such fields.

Yes people got hurt or even killed. That really is how it was. But such brute force was NOT necessary to cause such damage. I think that if you tried some live steel reenactments, even with blunted swords, you would see a dramatic difference. But you know, I fully expect you NOT to ever try it, because you are afraid of finding out that there is more to life than the inaccuracies of the SCA. You do not want your bubble burst. That is entirely your choice, but you cannot expect others to buy into your delusions.

***With so much at stake, plus the ability to advance oneself in wealth and social status through combat, I bet those guys struck as hard and as skillfully as they could.

Hard, no they did not need to, they had real sword and mild steel armor, nowhere thick as the so called armor used today. HUGE DIFFERENCES which some people here seem unwilling to acknowledge. Honestly, Paladin, your exceptional delusional abilities make the SCA look bad.

Forgive me for my harsh post, I merely want to point out that there are some people with a more realistic view of combat, history, skill vs. force, and how to achieve historic accuracy in modern times. Also, sorry about the typos and inconsistencies of punctuation, I somehow pushed the wrong button and it moved all the normal punctuation into hiding. Thank you for reading and letting me say my piece.

Liz

mrks · Post by **mrks** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 3:08 pm

wow liz that was a chunk of time to invest in a BB forum. thanks you for your efforts.

I have seen some of the earlier tape footage of some of our very early tournaments(antir) and I would like to comment that in our area it has moderated quite alot compared to the beatings administered in yesteryear.

when I started eight years ago you were beaten black and blue on the legs. I just dont see that kind of thing happening to the new fighters coming in the last few years. something changed here and it is much more politically correct and definitely not as savage to the newcomers.

the hardcore squires go at it with enthusiasm and pound each other. you see after a period of time fighting you begin to "get it". you no longer need to throw into someones unarmoured spots full power. you begin to seek the power of a "good shot" that is safe to throw depending on the armour of the area. helmet shots are thrown much harder than armpit shots. yes you hit the armpit with a some power some but why should you injure someone as you have the skill not to.

so as you become highly skilled and get tired of the beating game you have the most fun fighting those who you can trust to do the same. the joy of beating on another equally skilled power fighter/squire goes away and you would rather fight skilled rather than power fight. most of the time you see a knight putting a beatdown on a fighter is because the other fighter went to a power game and the knight responds in same.

I am not doing a very good job of explaining that the sca is not all about rhinoing and blowing the other guy/gal up but sadly it takes a while to learn or figure what it is all about. those who finally do are the best/fun fights they are the ones fighting their hearts out with a big grin on their faces and end the fights with happy chatter instead of stomping away.

However I would like to note that today shot dynamic skill compared to the early tournament tape... current technique has gone through the roof. some of those on tape are still around and dont even look like they used to. the current sword technique allows for high powered shots without needing wild baseball swings. having your arm come out from your body actually costs power compared to a highly efficient(motionwise) shot.

you see with good armour it is very safe to throw hard at armoured places. two skilled fighters dont really really throw hard at unarmoured places they will throw a good shot. they will however unleash into a well armoured area thats safe to hit.

[This message has been edited by mrks (edited 01-05-2003).]

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 3:51 pm

Liz here again. thanks for your post, medi ren groups need more people like you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrks:
[B]wow liz that was a chunk of time to invest in a BB forum. thanks you for your efforts.

***I have seen some of the earlier tape footage of some of our very early tournaments(antir) and I would like to comment that in our area it has moderated quite alot compared to the beatings administered in yesteryear.

so styles and techniques have evoled... I understand that. but that makes it even more difficult to replicate the styles of a long time ago... one needs to understand that no historical reenacment will be perfect, to say such things is just plain wrong.

***when I started eight years ago you were beaten black and blue on the legs. I just dont see that kind of thing happening to the new fighters coming in the last few years. something changed here and it is much more politically correct and definitely not as savage to the newcomers.

***the hardcore squires go at it with enthusiasm and pound each other. you see after a period of time fighting you begin to "get it". you no longer need to throw into someones unarmoured spots full power. you begin to seek the power of a "good shot" that is safe to throw depending on the armour of the area. helmet shots are thrown much harder than armpit shots. yes you hit the armpit with a some power some but why should you injure someone as you have the skill not to.

right. but you imply that one must learn the skills first... that is a good thing. skill also involves knowing what is too hard, as you point out. some people on this list seem to be missing that.

***so as you become highly skilled and get tired of the beating game you have the most fun fighting those who you can trust to do the same. the joy of beating on another equally skilled power fighter/squire goes away and you would rather fight skilled rather than power fight. most of the time you see a knight putting a beatdown on a fighter is because the other fighter went to a power game and the knight responds in same.

*grin* Our Sensei said that we are all "equal opportunity beaters." In other words, none of this soft stuff, hit the women just as hard as the men but no harder. and if you can deal that hard of a hit, you should be able to take an equal amount. if not, DO NOT hit that hard. otherwise, take a shot from one of the black belts. oh, and can I take a minute to point out that women are 5 times more sensitive to pain than men... so it actually hurts us worse, and if we can take the pain of a hit that a man cannot, who is really tougher? *wink*

***I am not doing a very good job of explaining that the sca is not all about rhinoing and blowing the other guy/gal up but sadly it takes a while to learn or figure what it is all about. those who finally do are the best/fun fights they are the ones fighting their hearts out with a big grin on their faces and end the fights with happy chatter instead of stomping away.

you are doing fine. I realize that there are a lot of decent people like you who know how to have fun SAFELY but you guys seem to be taken over by the sniveling rhinohides. It is sad really.

***However I would like to note that today shot dynamic skill compared to the early tournament tape... current technique has gone through the roof. some of those on tape are still around and dont even look like they used to. the current sword technique allows for high powered shots without needing wild baseball swings. having your arm come out from your body actually costs power compared to a highly efficient(motionwise) shot.

***you see with good armour it is very safe to throw hard at armoured places. two skilled fighters dont really really throw hard at unarmoured places they will throw a good shot. they will however unleash into a well armoured area thats safe to hit.

with good armor and a shot being thrown by someeone with a clue, more than likely it will not be a problem. this is in a perfect situation and the world is full of imperfection. so ultimately it is not safe to assume that everyone has the necessary skills and armor to do this. too many people get hurt, that should be all the proof that anyone needs. if the situation is perfect, happy brutality to you *grin*, but please ask a few questions as to armor and skill before assuming anything. It really should not be too much to ask that anyone be a decent person.

Liz

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:53 pm

Paladin- training is why a modern soldier doesn't just pull the trigger and empty the mag at a target when the shooting starts. Training means you don't have to hit hardest, just effectively. Pure power with no control is easy to beat. Training means the fear doesn't control your actions.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:07 pm

I disagree with the notion that a smaller person can be more "devastating" than a larger person. At the same level of training, I think the larger, stronger person will win most often. Strength isn't everything, true, but it helps.

Oh, and I think that whatever test mr. grendal performed that allaowed him to cut through plate was flawed. Give us the specifics on both the sword you used, and the plate you supposedly cut through. No exaggerations, now...

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:27 pm

Some of the most frightening fighters I know are small. Strength helps part of the game, but not all.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:42 pm

Couple of replies all mashed in here:

Liz, it is my opinion that hitting quickly, on target, and with good force requires a LOT of skill. That is what most serious fighters in the SCA are attempting to do. If you are a serious fighter and you are not attempting to do that, you get your butt kicked. a lot.

Owen, small fighters are usually scary because
a) the are amped up from having to fight big guys all the time.
b) the big guys really aren't allowed to hit us full strength. I got a friend of mine who I can best a good 50% of the time. If he were allowed to use his strength to its full potential, it'd be like 25% or less. I'm with Joaquin. Big people are scary.

Crystoll · Post by **Crystoll** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joaquin:
I disagree with the notion that a smaller person can be more "devastating" than a larger person. At the same level of training, I think the larger, stronger person will win most often. Strength isn't everything, true, but it helps..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.
Look at Judo for example. The smaller fighter, having a lower center of gravity, has a slight advantage over a larger fighter.
Also, look at some of your historic martial arts masters(Eastern, yes, while you have the Bolo Yungs, you also have the Bruce Lee's and smaller.
Technique, form, flow and focus can easily compensate for lack of strength.
Anyone else see a video of Bruce in California, Okland I believe, where he demonstrates the "1 inch punch" on a local football team?
Only know this because Jun Fan/JKD is the style of martial art I studied.
And my instructor taught us that form, flow and focus could achive more than brute strength.
However, I guess it would depend on what scenario your imagining.
Respectfully,
Crystoll

Archais · Post by **Archais** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:57 pm

Damn.. im not involved in this long protracted discussion but i have always thought it funy how the nature and validity of SCA combat seems to be one of the most contraversial and diversly interpreted topics in the whole medaeval/renaissance community. just as soon as someone starts comparing SCA combats to historical tornaments or the armour used to historical tornament armour you can bet that theres going to be alot of people doin the dialectual tango responding to eachotehrs arguements and asking for "credentials" "tests" and "life experiences that give one an insight into the topic at hand" It seems a bit silly to me. Whoever said that "modern souldiers" dont empty their magazines when shooting starts apparantly has never served in the military. Percision shooting is left to the snipers. Soldiers may be trained to shoot well in basic, but when they encounter the enemy they are encouraged and trained to blast the hell out of anything that moves with extreme and unrestrained prejudice. (with the exception of peacekeeping roles and other instances in which rules of engagement dictate otherwise) Soldiers and marines are not exactly the cream of the societal crop and are not exactly well known for their ability to apply sound judgement and reasonable behavior in the field. Most enlisted soldiers come from inner city or rural populace and are quite frankly young and stupid kids who didnt knwo what to do after high school and liked the idea of being able to put on a uniform and cary a gun. I cant exactly stress to you how true what im saying is except by a real life anicdote. While i was serving whith the 101st airborn, i was on a field excercise in which the laser tag "MILES gear" was being used. Our position got attacked in the early hours of the morning just as the sun was rising. The canadian troops playing the part of the enemy had snuck into our position and were trying to plant explosive charges near our equipment and vehicles without being detected. When one of our number spotted and began to shoot at them the whole world lit up with an indescribeable volume of gunfire, much of it not even directed at the enemy (exhausted troops were shooting where they thought the enemy was on burst or full auto) One sergeant who was not exactly known for his intellectual or cognitive puissance jumped out of the back of a HUMV with a M249SAW light machinegun and began quite neglegently and wrecklessly burning the belt of ammunition in strafing passes toward the general direction of the enemy (they were by this time firing back and taging some of our number) He was screaming like a mad man and completely oblivious to the fact that there were more friendly troops in the direction he was firing than OPFOR who were retreating into the woods.

Anyway it was determined later that he had managed to tag (eliminate) about four friendlies who he shot in the back due to his inept handling of a dangerous weapon he had trained to use with percision. (my foxhole partner by the way had to give me his machinegun and use my M16A2 BECAUSE HE DIDNT KNOW HOW TO LOAD THE WEAPON)

Im asking myself at this point what all of this has to do with the effectiveness fo 16g as opposed to 14... I guess if there isnt much of a brain in that pot in the first place its probly not worth protecting anyway

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:06 pm

Jean Paul- I am a big guy myself, and I do not "hold back" when fighting smaller fighters. I feel it would be insulting to do so.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 11:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Owen:
Jean Paul- I am a big guy myself, and I do not "hold back" when fighting smaller fighters. I feel it would be insulting to do so.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Owen, IIRC, are you bout 6'0 or so and 250 lbs or so? Thats not a big guy in our game. Big guy to me is over 300 and/or over 6'2"

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:18 am

Jeffery,
thank's for putting that into words.
I had a hard time doing it, so I went straight for the pole weapons.
Yes, swords designed for the thrust are of concern. As can be seen in their design. Of note are the type XV's.
However, the techniques of using them were different than earlier periods of maile armour. A downward slash on anything very hard tends to completely ruin even the most well built sword. Typically in the hilt and the portion of the blade hit.
That's what I've been trying to tell those who are buying there first sword. Basically not to try and chop anything harder than a watermelon.
In other words, they are not axes, and can't be used as such.
But, while maile can be busted in this manner with earlier blades, the best use against plate would be for a type XV to find a hole or uncovered area and go for the thrust, which, by the way, could understandably be VERY hard to do in battle.
The lighter armoured troops, yes somewhat easier, depending on what they were wearing, but you might have not known which kind you would be facing at a given moment-Knight or infantry?

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FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:55 pm

Just wanted to add some rambling thoughts to the topic.

I've been fighting SCA rattan for a total of about 3 years (with a large gap in the middle), first in AEthelmearc, and now in Acre (Kingdom of Acre is part of the MSR, a group that uses almost exactly the same rules for rattan combat as the SCA, with some differences noted below). I am a fairly big guy (6'1", 280lb). I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, consider myself to be a good fighter. At best I'm a beginner.

That being said, here are some thought I have on the topics discussed:

Strength of blows: When I am working out against a pell, or against an opponent who is not moving much, I have no problem throwing a "good" shot - that is, a shot that meets the calibration level in my area (since Acre is in the same real-world place as East Kingdom, we tend to use the same calibration standard). However, when in a fluid fight, against a good opponent, it's much, much harder to land a shot strong enough to count.

I believe that there is more to skill than just landing a clean shot in the desired location - landing a powerful shot takes far more skill that just touching someone. It's not a question of either throwing skilled shots or powerful shots, but rather a skilled shot is, in my mind, defined as "a powerful shot that lands where you want it land, when you want it to land, bypassing your opponents defenses." If you can touch your opponent every time, but not with adequate power, you are not truly skilled.

In terms of hitting unarmored areas, I find that one of Acre's difference from SCA helps. We have a rule that armor counts "as worn". In other words, while a shot to any portion with armor (whether leather, maille, or plate) must meet the same calibration as the SCA uses, any shot landing on an unarmored part of the body counts as good regardless of force. Even a tap on an unarmored part of the body can be a killing blow. This leads to Acre fighter wearing a lot more armor than some SCA fighters (of the kidney belt and pads variety), leading to more authentic armor (at least in terms of coverage). Thus, there is no need to throw heavy into unarmored areas. A tap will do.

Exclusivity/Inclusivity: I am all for as many people playing the games as possible. Small people have just as much place in it as large ones. One of the best fighters I know is 5'4" and maybe 130lb. I know at least three female fighters, both small (at a guess, under 140lb, and under 5'4"), at least from where I stand, that can kick my butt all up and down the field.

That being said, this is a full contact combat sport. It requires a certain amount of physical strength, stamina, and ability to participate. Without that requirement, it would not be the same game. Since I like the game the way it is (at least, in general terms), I do not want to see this requirement lifted. I don't think this means I discriminate against people. It's just the requirements of the game.

As a (somewhat absurd) parallel, I love to sing. Unfortunately, I am very, very, bad at it. I can't carry a tune in a bucket. There is nothing I can do about it - I've taken a variety of music courses, and I just don't have the ear for music. So when I am excluded from participating in a chorus, I don't feel I am being discriminated against - I just don't meet the basic requirement to participate.

Heavy armor leading to heavy blows: I think that while heavier calibration standards certainly lead to heavier armor, the converse is not necessarily true. When I acquire new armor, whether it's heavier or lighter than a previous piece, I go out and ask people to calibrate on it. I then learn what a good shot feels like in that piece of armor. Most people I know do the same. I would certainly hope this is the common way to do this.

Authenticity: While there are aspects of SCA-style rattan combat (I include the game as played in Acre in this) that are blatantly unrealistic, there are also aspects that are more realistic than any other group that I've seen (note the qualifier - there are hundreds of groups I haven't seen). Specifically, the SCA is the only group I know of that plays this game at full force, full speed, and with weapon-to-body contact.

I've seen live steel groups that go full speed and force, but only aim for each otherâ€™s weapons. I've seen live steel groups that use semi-choreographed techniques that purposefully telegraph the shots so the opponent can block them. I've seen live steel groups that aim for the body, but use a reduced-strength shot, to avoid injury. I've never seen a live-steel group that uses full strength blows, at full speed, against the opponents body. They may be out there, but I am unaware of them. Frankly, I'm not sure there's any way to make such combat safe.

As to how hard one needs to hit to be authentic, I can't say for certain. I can deliver a sword blow that any East Kingdom fighter will recognize as good (whether I can actually land it in a fight is another question entirely...), and East is considered to be a heavy-hitting kingdom. I don't believe that with a real sword I'd be able to chop through maille. I am sure that I couldn't chop through plate. So the calibration standard, at least, is not grossly overpowered compared to what a medieval warrior would have to use (there may well be individuals that hit harder than that).

Personally, I believe that a one-handed sword was ineffective against plate (there are some first-hand accounts of 14C troops used to fighting maille-clad opponents finding CoPs to be invulnerable to their swords). Thus, wearing the heavier plate (as compared, to leather) had a big advantage, despite slowing you down. This is not the case in the SCA, where all armor is born equal, and in terms of competitiveness one might as well wear the lightest armor one can get.

What I would love to see is a rattan tournament (perhaps as part of the historical tourney series) that expands on Acre's "armor as worn" rule. I would like the rule to state that any steel plate armor (whether CoP, brig, or white) is invulnerable to single-handed swords. This includes those parts of a helmet that are plate - skull and skirting, closed visors, but not bargrills. Thus, one would have to either hunt for gaps, or switch to a different weapon, such as a mace, or something two-handed. I think this would make for a far more authentic combat than we have at present.

The other big inaccuracy I wish there was a way to deal with is shins - they are, at present not a legal target area, but if they were, the style one used in combat would need to be very different. Unfortunately, even with fully-cased steel greaves (which are expensive!) I don't think this can be done safely.

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak
http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/medieval/armor/

Sage Karn · Post by **Sage Karn** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:02 pm

Hmmm... Viewing these posts two things can be discerned right away: 1) MR. and MRS. Anvil Dragon are not going to change the mind of Paladin, and likewise vise versa. 2) People in the SCA will hit hard and always have no matter what age range, skill level, or experience, therefore anything higher than 16 gauge for a helm and your asking for bodily harm.

As a standard in my helms I make for others I always use at least 14 gauge for the top and 16 most other places. In my personal helms I use 14 all over and won't chance anything else. Whether this is "Historically accurate" or not doesn't bother me, because I have a style all my own incorporating traditional style with my own imagination. Also, what is the true definition of authentic looking or period. To me, it means just what was most commonly used at the time. There were armorers in the same period that made quite different looking armor than what was common for that time. Just like today, There are common place guns pumped out by companies and then there are custom made guns created by gunsmiths and such that are completely unique.

...Well I hope that made sense and got my point (opinion) across.

Oh, and I'm sure I'll be flammed for this post, but hey whatever; flame away

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â€œâ€¦and from the fires of the dark forge came the armor of Strife whoâ€™s making was as unique as the hand that wrought its existence.â€

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Owen:
Jean Paul- I am a big guy myself, and I do not "hold back" when fighting smaller fighters. I feel it would be insulting to do so.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You consider yourself a big guy? This is Owen isn't it? Sir Ivar is a big guy. Sir Edmond is a big guy. I hate to break it to you, but your about average -if not slightly smaller.

(^_^)

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Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Hagler:
Actually, to be honest, the only reason the sword was even carried in later years of plate, was as a symbol of honor, and if you really want to get REAL, decapitating prisoners.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the sword was usable against the common footsoldier -who made up the bulk of the army. When a knight happened across another knight it was then time to switch to something more apropriate (like a mace, or pick).

(^_^)

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Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

Ld. David de Clermont · Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:03 pm

Have you seen some of Sir Ivar's squires? (I mean besides me!) Most aren't what you'd call small. If you removed Randy and me from the average, they'd be about 6'2" and weigh in around 325#...

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Ld. David de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Home Page

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:30 pm

< pout > I'm not big? < pout >
< wanders off kicking stones >

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

[This message has been edited by Owen (edited 01-06-2003).]

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:27 pm

Has anyone noticed how big people grow these day's. It's amazing.
Especially when in the armour business.
Everyone's huge!
Why?
Yes, some are average build, but wow, very few.

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FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 2:22 pm

Liz Iâ€™m not sure of a few things:

Why do you think that people go out to hit women harder? Itâ€™s never been my experience that happens. We have several women fighters here in our Barony. They get hit like a new person does, not like a woman. There are also women in Colorado proper that fight. I donâ€™t think they get hit any harder or softer than the rest of us. If thereâ€™s any difference in the level of power you are hit with itâ€™s more than likely itâ€™s because you have on a white/red belt, wear strawberry leaves, Stagâ€™s Blood on your belt, your name happens to be Arland the Bastard, etc.

The SCA is not reenactment itâ€™s recreation.

Why do you insist that the SCA play the game down to lowest person? What skill is there in tapping people with a stick? Compared to throwing a shot thatâ€™s at the kingdomâ€™s power level? If you were to wear just the minimum armor in the Outlands youâ€™d block really well or end up bruises (at least a sore spot). This is how it should be.

If you feel the need to play the game you describe as all skill and no overly powerful shots, then I suggest you move somewhere that hits really light or play another game. Like HACA, Ampguard (sp?) or some LARP game. You wouldnâ€™t insist that hockey players lighten up so everyone who wanted to play could...would you?

I donâ€™t advocate 16 helms because they dent way too easy and 9 out 10 times 16ga helms arenâ€™t 16ga. Given that they are usually dished (not raised), sanded and polished.

McMonkey · Post by **McMonkey** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 2:34 pm

I agree 16 gauge is plenty...