Raised - Great bascinet by Jiri Klepac.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:16 pm

Thats art!

Great job Jiri! Thats one of the most impressive helmets I've seen. Armour boy, I bet your doing the happy dance :wink:

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:37 pm

Hi Otto, oh yes ... most definitely doing the happy dance!

I'm thrilled to bits with the wonderful job Jiri has done on it, tis indeed a work of art.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:45 pm

Stuart, i hate you :-)

Cracking bit of work. Might have to hop on the seacat and nick it from you ;-D

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:07 pm

Hee hee, you'll have a hard job Thomas as I shall be wearing it! :wink:

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:25 pm

Hello folks,

I turned really red reading last postings. My ego would be in the skyes, just thinking how to continue hold it down:-)

I spent a good while trying to find out how and where to attach the liner. and what are the double holes around the edge for. Most of the pieces I checked seem to have leather strap riveted to upper edge of the inner (upper) bevor and the strange double holes around the edges....

If anyone has some information about it I would be really happy to hear. The holes can be seen aslo on the att picture. Thank you for the help.

Jiri

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:48 am

Just looked through my collection of great basc photos to refresh my memory. As far as I know there are no liners in any Great basc. that now exist intact. The BM one has liner holes as if it were sew all along the skull, down around the shoudlers and up to and around the face opening. The double holes along the bottom could be for attaching padding as well or perhaps some type of camail? The BM one lacks the bevor to help indicate if the great bascinets used one method or another or if its bevore had the holes along it as well. The Norwich great BAsc. is missing the throat /face guard and bevor as well but has the liner holes all the way along the face opening and the back. THe RA one has the same missign bits and the same liner holes.

It seems to be that the face opening has very consistant holes all the was around it spaced evenly. The bottom of the neck guard has double holes often like shown in the drawing. I do not know why the face opening has more tightly set holes. I could not find any liner holes in the face/throat guard plate so I am not sure if the front had any padding. If it did it is possible that that is what the holes along the bottom of the bevor plate are for and the weight just holds it there.

Hope that helped.

Jiri,

Awesome work. You deserve a gold star on that one.

Armour Boy,

Very nice helmet. IT will need a nice display at your place!

RPM

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:02 am

OK after a second thought on the liner this is what I am thinking.

The liner is attached via the face holes stitched and along the base of the neck line on the helmet with rivets. The face holes seem to stop on all the great Basc I have seen where the face/throat guard plate is attached. I do not see evidence that it had padding on the face/throat plate.

The double holes at the bottom are trickier. They could simply be for attaching something to avoid it rubbing steel on steel, maybe a leather strap sewn into it? A liner? Or it is possible for the camail attachment I guess as well.

Sorry I cannot help you with what the double holes are but for me the liner at least seems how I'd put it in. If you look at your drawing of the helmet you will see the rivets are along the base of the neck there, the visor obscures the face holes but those three I looked at up close all seem to haev the same holes along the face.

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:07 am

Randall,

thank you for checking. My first idea about the double holes was that they were used for lacing it to the armour under, as it is quite often seen on slassic bascinet aventails, then the lining could be in the upper bevor and in the bowl down to the line of rivets visible on the drawing, but well 1430 seems to be a bit too late for it...

Jiri

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:37 am

Maybe like some sallets of the era, it had a cover??

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:58 am

Many thanks Randall and Thomas for your great imput into the liner holes question, very much appreciated guys.

Randall, (this is only my thoughts I might be wrong but) I have so far ruled out the possibility, at least for the moment, of having the liner riveted to the inside back of the helm basin, as no rivet holes are seen running around the sides and back of the original helms in the photos, just seen in that illustration. I am not totally happy that the drawing represents the helmet properly, as even the shape of the visor appears different to the visor on the extant originals.

However, I do accept that to rivet the liner to the back of the helm basin would be correct in most instances.

Cheers
Stu

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:06 am

Let me just join in on the praises! Its great getting to see progress pics like this, it really adds to the appreciation of the final product!

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:54 am

Stu,

The likelyhood is that they used flush rivets and the drawing shows where they were placed.

Here is the same great Basc. from the BM, thank my Mother in Law for getting them to let her take a good picture as the Medieval section was closed when there last.

Clearly you can see the line of holes along the back, which could be for rivets or possibly sewn in as well. My guess is that most bascients have these. Why the lower ones> I do not know but I am fairly sure these upper ones are for the liner.

RPM

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:20 am

Thanks Randall, good point! I hadn't considered they may have used flush headed rivets on the original helms, in which case the rivets would be very difficult to spot from the outside, what with the aged patina of the piece.

It would be lovely to see inside the Paris helm for instance, to see if any of the original liner remains.

Cheers
Stu

per lillelund jensen · Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:10 am

Hi Jiri

Like Chef said on the A&AF the holes at the bottom edge is most likely for a mail drape rather than liner.

Cheers
Per

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:24 am

PEr,

Yep I said that was a possbility above earlier. Glad you agree.

RPM

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:24 am

Check out the camial/aventail liner in this forum. The effigy of Philip the bold is from no earlier than 1419, and as Mac has pointed out, it's actually a great bascinet, rather than a bascinet with an exposed liner. Mac's arguments are pretty convincing and I think it would make that bascinet liner apply directly to this one, even if that one is of a slightly earlier style.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:08 pm

Strongbow,

Which forum? Never seen Mac's take on this helmet before.

RPM

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:28 pm

Hello folks,

thank you very much for the help. I am still pretty confused about what and where is attached, but I hope I am comming closer.

Now I think the helmet inner bevor is lined, helmet bowl is lined down to the line of the countersunk rivets.

But if there should be a mail drape (very logically the double holes show this as anything else is problematic to attach to them) so 1) is the drape lined too as ChefÂ´s pics show. If so, how? 2)is it cut in the front and back part 3) could the helmet be buckled to the armour then?

thank you once more for your help and opinions

Jiri

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:55 pm

Jiri,
I'm sorry I don't have the computer-savy to link back to an image in a different thread, so please bear with me. Go to the thread called "Camail Padding-Part of the Liner, or On the Camail Band", and look at the pics. posted by Strongbow. In the first picture you can see that the strap from the rear gorget/ventail plate actually passes through the lining.
Also, please note that I have made a couple of rambling posts later in that thread which you may find interesting.

cheers,
Mac

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:26 pm

Mac,

thank you very much, I read all the thread and it is very interesting. I am still not sure how I will finish it, but the double holes around are hardly good for anything else than attaching mail...

all the best

Jiri

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:38 pm

Alrighty then. Here is the post I think Strongbow was talking about.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... sc&start=0

I had searched on here before but came up with nothing leading me to think there was a link embedded in Strongbow's post @ here that did not work for me and it was on another forum. With Mac's title I came up with that.

Looks pretty good to me. Wish we could see if the front part of the helmet was lined.

RPM

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:47 pm

Yeah, sorry guys, I should have put a link in. Mac and Randall directed you to the correct thread.

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:08 am

Guys,

I think maybe inside shot could help to see how small the real space for the drape of mail is. I am still confused...

Jiri

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:50 am

What the heck do I know... but I think the argument is that the mail drape would only be attached near the bottom edge. further inside the helmet it would be liner only beneath the plate.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:17 am

Like what Strongbow said. The mail would just be attached to the very edge of the helmet. What I am curious about is if the effigy shows two liners attached there at the neck or one long one.

I have never done a great bascinet... I have seen a number of originals and been able to handle a few but 0 have the original liners in them still so I think that effigy is the best be we have coupled with what we know of the holes in existing great basc.s.

Here are two possible candidates for mail attached to great bascinets along the very bottom for you both in the 1410's. You can see most of the mail seems to be little more than a decoration but who knows it may have been important. I have never used one either. There are plenty that lack mail so I guess it is up to you or stu or someone else I do not know.

RPM

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:38 am

I hope it is up to Stu:-) Anyway a frien of mine just dropped me email about how we do know that on the effigies it is not just mail standard. Oh my god, there are too many possibilities. Thanks for the pictures, especially the second one is gorgeous!

Randall - do all of those you have seen have the line of the holes/rivets on the "neck line" for countersunk rivets discussed earlier?

Thank you very much

Jiri

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:58 am

Jiri Klepac wrote:I hope it is up to Stu:-) Anyway a frien of mine just dropped me email about how we do know that on the effigies it is not just mail standard. Oh my god, there are too many possibilities. Thanks for the pictures, especially the second one is gorgeous!

Randall - do all of those you have seen have the line of the holes/rivets on the "neck line" for countersunk rivets discussed earlier?

Thank you very much

Jiri

It could be a standard I suppose, but the Burgundy effigy pics that were linked in the other thread would suggest otherwise. Mac had a theory that the mail edging would help prevent weapons being forced in teh gap between the gorget plates and the breast and back as teh wearer moved. Seems reasonable to me. A liner under the mail edging would also give the mail a bit more body, helping to prevent it from flipping back under the edges of the plates and interfering with proper fit.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:28 am

Stuart,
I think I just sent you a private message, but I'm such a Luddite I can't be sure. Please tell me if it worked.
Mac

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:42 pm

Hi Mac, yes your message got through to me fine

Many many thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed and easily understood guide for fitting out my Great Bascinet with a liner which will not only function correctly and look right. That is really kind and very much appreciated.

Your advice on the mail drape, is most interesting also.

I have passed on your notes to Jiri, who I am sure will find them very informative and useful.

I love the idea of having a short mail drape fitted to the bottom edge of my helm, Jiri has done such a lovely job of this superb bascinet and the mail drape will finish it all off nicely and utilise those pairs of small holes on the bottom of the helm for what they were originally intended for. It will look totally awesome and unique!

A pleasure speaking with you.

best wishes
Stu

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:45 pm

Jiri,

The BM, RA and Norwich Great Bascinet's do indeed have them. I took pictures of the inside of the RA one last time I was there and from the outside one cannot see the line of rivets but inside they are still there.

Mac's idea is the best one I have heard so far as to why the mail is still used with such a conplete helmet. Sounds good to me.

Stu,

I bet you thought this would be much more straight forward eh

Hope that soon you decide on how to do it. I guess Mac likely has made quite a few of them so he could point you to a good way of getting this done.

RPM

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:55 pm

Randall,

thank you very much for confirming that. It would be fine to handle original piece before the work itself started..

Mac, Thank you very much for the notes. I will send an e-mail to you about it soon

Jiri, less confused, more happy!

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:16 am

Well, with alot of great insight and very kind assistance from Mac, (who worked out the best possible way to pad and line my Great Bascinet and to line and fix the mail drape), Jiri now is able to draw up a plan for finishing off the helmet.

Please refer to Jiri's attached illustration.

You will see two lining bands, the first riveted to the back of the neck, the second fixed someway below the chin. The liner will consist of two parts, the upper section (in green) of a traditional 4 segment design sown to the neck band, whilst the lower liner (in red) will be slightly more padded and will be sown to the lower section of the upper liner (except for the neck area which will contain no padding whatsoever to aid putting on the helmet).

The mail drape and lower bevor plate and ventail plate will be only very lightly padded, to ensure the dags don't ride up under the plate when in use and that the lower bevor plate moves and functions properly. The mail dags are going to be lined right up to their tips, not an easy task, but the best possible solution for them to function and sit right.

Finally, the tiny lining holes around the face opening will be countersunk in the traditional manner to ensure the lining thread seats nicely and does not get snagged. The neck band rivet holes will be similarly countersunk with the rivets ground down to leave just a very small amount of rivethead proud of the surface of the helmet.

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:55 am

wow. this is coming along very nicely. can't wait to see it finished.

Thanks for the pics,

Aaron

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:39 pm

I'm doing the happy dance, I just found out Jiri is getting ready to raise a sallet for me. :wink:

He apoligised for being late, he originally said he would start the project in Feb. And its late february. Heck, I'd say hes right on time LOL. I'm amazed he can estimate his work load so closely so far in advance. A hell of an artist, a hell of a business man. A rare combination indeed..

armourboy · Post by **armourboy** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:22 am

OK, Jiri has now attached the mail aventail, which will be cut down to approx half it's current width and will eventually be sewn onto the lower portion of the helm via a rawhide strap.

Also included is a pic of the inside of the helm, showing the positioning of the holes for attaching the leather strips which the lining will be stitched onto.

Jiri is still measuring to determine the correct position for the front and rear leather straps, which will buckle the helm down to the breastplate and backplate, at some time in the future when funds allow.

Raised - Great bascinet by Jiri Klepac.

Great Bascinet.

Great bascinet.

GB

GB liner riveting question.

Mac

The helmet padding.

Great bascinet plus aventail.