Accidentally cool

Asher · Post by **Asher** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:49 pm

Well, my apprentice and I were building his helm last week. We decided to go with a spangenhelm [this was his first helm project by the way, and I think he did a wonderful job]. When we were trying to figure out what to do for the face part, he decided he wanted to attach a greathelm's face plate. Does anyone know if there's any evidence to support this in history?

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Asher der JÃ¤ger
Owner, Asher's Armory
http://www.19sixty9.com/sca/ashers

[This message has been edited by Asher (edited 02-03-2003).]

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:04 pm

Looks great! However I don't have any info on the history of such helmet. It actually looks almost like a sugarloaf, but I could be wrong.

Grendal

Asher · Post by **Asher** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:11 pm

Well, that wasn't intentional. You can see here, in the side shot, the overall shape a bit better.

Edit - Obviously the finishing work hasn't been done yet. He just wanted to get out and fight in it and I wanted pictures before I dented the hell out of it. I was very gratified that even with all the abuse I gave him yesterday, the helm doesn't show it.
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Asher der JÃ¤ger
Owner, Asher's Armory
http://www.19sixty9.com/sca/ashers

[This message has been edited by Asher (edited 02-03-2003).]

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:43 pm

Looks very much like a sugarloaf style to me, and I also suspect this is a historical style of helm, intentional or not.

Circa 1190 the standard pot helm sprouted a face gaurd. Within the next 20 years this grew into a back-wrapper for the head as well.

A lot of these helms were flat-topped, but rounded pot helms were also known. And the sugarloaf makes an appearance around 1250.

I suspect your creation is a logical extension of the spangen-construction pot helm and the sugarloaf.

Steve

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Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:15 pm

I made something like that a couple of years ago and caught a rash of crap about it not being historical. It certainly is a logical step in helm development from a engineering stantpoint.
Your newbie did good. I hope those are not aluminum pop rivets.

Hal

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:21 pm

What Hal said. Good first-timer metalwork, and it would suit the SCA market, assuming the rivets are steel. Some few SCA hats have been made that way.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:37 am

Asher,
I think it's a logical extrapolation of period techniques. Given the number of oddball helms represented in period art, who's to say someone didn't desgn a similar helm. It looks good btw.
Slainte,
Fearghus

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Justin Andrews · Post by **Justin Andrews** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:44 am

I'd have to say there is no way that this can be considered un-historical.
However I can see people not liking it, as it is not "cannon" historical.

Anyway, very few helms have survived from the 10th-13th centuries, and this style helm dos'nt appear to be illustated. So all we can assume is that if this style was used, that it was not popular, or long lived.

My supposition, is that if this style was in use, the blacksmiths and armourers making them realised that the spangen top was not required and slowed production, capping the top with a simpler design, leading to the more identifiable designs recored.

If so, congratulations on possibly being one of the few to rediscover this style of helm!
I have a spangenhelm I want to build soon, I think I may build one of these at the same time. They are a very cool design.

Juz

Asher · Post by **Asher** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:22 pm

Thanks for your responses. I hope you don't mind, but I plan on using what you have said to aid in my documentation. I'm trying to find some stuff linking the sugarloaf to the spangenhelm in an evolutionary progression, but in the mean time, when I get asked some questions about this helm, I'll at least have something logical to talk to folks about.

Thanks again,

Asher

Justin Andrews · Post by **Justin Andrews** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:57 pm

If you want, next time I'm up at the Leeds Royal Armoury, I could ask some of the curators there if they know of any such evolution.

Mind you that may not be for a month or so though.

Anyway good luck with your research, I strongly recommend contacting such armour collections for information though.

Juz

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:59 pm

Hal, you posted on the authenticity forum iirc..

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:53 pm

The latest contemporary pic I've seen (for W. Europe) of a spangenhelm is one which appeared on this forum not that long ago, of King Stephen, late C12. The development of these face plates seems to take in verey type of helmet in use at the time (ALSO the end of the C12), with a face plate bunged on the front.

Though I haven't seen specifically a spangenhelm-face plate combination, spangenhelms were just going out as face plates were coming in (though I slag Osprey off a lot, they have a book showing quite a selection of these helmets from Primary Sources, whih is worth chasing up - don't know its name).

As a logical progression, I would say you have a c hance that SOME helmets of this type may have just scraped in.

I take it this is an SCA helm, and there wkill be mail over the backplate, pretending to be a coif? Otherwise there is a problem - these back-plates don't seem to have come in till later.

Good luck with it

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Egfroth

"I can hear the word money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

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Asher · Post by **Asher** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:56 pm

It is an SCA helm and yes, the rivets are steel [atlthough the entire damn thing is welded with the exception of the joins on the sides]. No, we're not draping maille off of this one, period or not. Matt doesn't like the weight it adds. I tend to agree with him. I'll deal with the period police if it means I get to not wear an additional 5-10 lbs on my head.

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Asher der JÃ¤ger
Owner, Asher's Armory
http://www.19sixty9.com/sca/ashers

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:35 pm

Nice first piece, but sadly there is NO historical evidence to support that a helment like that ever existed.

None that I've ever come across, anyway.

There is a similar round-topped helmet with a face plate that was mentioned above, that is true, but not the same...

Let some new fighter fight in it and he'll be happy.

Chalk up the experience for your apprentice (and yourself) that if you want to make a historical piece, then it pays to do your research before cutting into any metal.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:09 am

Hurts doesn't it. My new spangen helm will have to be a display helm, :-(

now that the maile drape is added. It is way too heavy to wear.

A fine exquisite line exist between historical and practical and therein lays the artistic beauty I have come to appreciate on this archive.

Happy metal pounding,

Hal