Leather gambeson

[kersme]

Would it be period at all?

Thanks
Kersme

[Klaus the Red]

As an under-armor garment, unlikely- the wearer would cook. There's a thing called a cotun, if I am recalling the term correctly, which is a Scottish variant that's more of an early jack- with one or more layers of leather, designed as a stand-alone armor and not a foundation garment or under-armor padding.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

No. See here.

[Baron Alejandro]

A leather gambeson would stink to high heaven in about 2 weeks. Ye gods.

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

No. See here.

WOW!! That was an interesting read...That guy just wouldn't accept what he was being told...

[Jess]

I wonder if this notion of the leather gambeson has an origin in one of the Period Patterns? I don't have it in front of me but I believe one of the Period Patterns has a pattern for a leather "lentner" which looks like what I think of as a jupon.

[St. George]

I have always thought that the Hohenklingen (sp?) jupon, or at least the coif, had the look of a leather garment.

g-

[Konstantin the Red]

The only lentner I've ever seen was of heavyweight, tight woven cloth.

[James B.]

Ordinances for Jacks suggest a deer hide for the shell:

From the Ordinances of Louis XI of France (1461-1483)

And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausess. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."

We must remember these are disposable items in the period unlike today when we want these items to last a long time. While I have not strong evidence to say yes they always did that I do not put it to the realm of the impossible.

Frankly the likelihood is that if you had good armor you used silk as your shell; all the historical text I have seen suggest silk and the extant examples for from the 14th century are silk covered.

[Klaus the Red]

Again, this is referring to a jack or textile armor, designed to stand alone- I don't think there's much debate that leather was used in the construction of same. The objection has been raised to the sense of using leather as a full layer in a foundation garment or padding under mail or plate. I seem to recall that some 15th century arming doublets had vertical leather reinforcing strips, but these would still have allowed the garment to breathe.

[Kel Rekuta]

I have always thought that the Hohenklingen (sp?) jupon, or at least the coif, had the look of a leather garment.

g-

I witnessed John Lucas (Master James Blanchart?) production of a "glove weight" horsehide covered lentner based on that effigy. Although the cotton batting was only a couple layers with a light canvas lining, it was fairly stiff at first. The client, whom SCAdians call Duke Eduoard Beausoliel, wore it a few times. He couldn't function in it, it was so hot. Even though the bellows arms pumped air across his back and neck once the collar was opened in the back, it was impossible for him to keep going very long. It was an awesome experiment but doomed. Leather doesn't breathe.

[Chris Gilman]

I have always thought that the Hohenklingen (sp?) jupon, or at least the coif, had the look of a leather garment.

g-

I witnessed John Lucas (Master James Blanchart?) production of a "glove weight" horsehide covered lentner based on that effigy. Although the cotton batting was only a couple layers with a light canvas lining, it was fairly stiff at first. The client, whom SCAdians call Duke Eduoard Beausoliel, wore it a few times. He couldn't function in it, it was so hot. Even though the bellows arms pumped air across his back and neck once the collar was opened in the back, it was impossible for him to keep going very long. It was an awesome experiment but doomed. Leather doesn't breathe.

I guess wearing "leathers" on bikes would be a problem with this conclusion? Moto GP guys do it, hot yes, but very workable.
I have a leather coat, deer skin exterior, pig skin interior, I wear under my mail for Viking age and it works well. I wore it at some Viking events in Denmark and it was comfortable.
I'm not sure I agree that it was not done or was not practical. Pennsic in the summer, maybe not so good, but colder climates, it may be desired.

[Kel Rekuta]

I guess wearing "leathers" on bikes would be a problem with this conclusion?
Moto GP guys do it, hot yes, but very workable.
I have a leather coat, deer skin exterior, pig skin interior, I wear under my mail for Viking age and it works well. I wore it at some Viking events in Denmark and it was comfortable.
I'm not sure I agree that it was not done or was not practical. Pennsic in the summer, maybe not so good, but colder climates, it may be desired.

To reply to your question; no, not a problem at all. Well, unless the hypothetical biker also;
i) put on layers of linen or wool clothing
ii) zipped up his jacket to the neck
ii) put on a globose breastplate
iii) did calisthenics in 2-3 minute bursts for a couple hours
I'm thinking that's a pretty heavy blanket of layers. A thinly quilted over-garment of more open weave fabric like fustian might not trap the heat quite as badly.

Your point is well taken; it wasn't just the leather shell. I suspect that particular garment was too heavily padded for that application. Also Hohenklingen would likely have been riding, exerting less energy. Uh, no more than a motocross rider might, I suppose.

As a leather merchant, I'm comfortable stating leather doesn't breathe. Any garment made with leather, even the finest lamb suede splits, needs to take this into account.

[Chris Gilman]

Kel Rekuta
To reply to your question; no, not a problem at all. Well, unless the hypothetical biker also;
i) put on layers of linen or wool clothing .

Why? Do you wear a suit coat under your wet suit? (Or other special purpose garment) I worked doing stunts in the Arizona desert and even in the summer I wore multiple layers. The correct ones wick sweat away and help cool the body, even under leather.

ii) zipped up his jacket to the neck.

Moto GP guys do zip up.

ii) put on a globose breastplate.

I was refering to an earlier period. But even later, I do not think this type of garment would be practical or needed under plate armour.

iii) did calisthenics in 2-3 minute bursts for a couple hours.

Bike racing in any form is a heluva work out.

I'm thinking that's a pretty heavy blanket of layers. A thinly quilted over-garment of more open weave fabric like fustian might not trap the heat quite as badly..

F-1 drivers wear a number of layers of Nomex, extremely hot in an enclosed cockpit. Why? Why not something else? Risk. Risk of injury outweighs the discomfort of the garment that will prevent that injury.
I also think the type of garment was regional. Places where it is hot, garments are different then where it is temperate and different where it is colder.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

So flipping it around, what evidence do you have for wearing the deer/pig skin under maille? Not being snide, generally interested. Was this based on extant research, or simply interpretive trial archeology?

[Kel Rekuta]

Chris,

By your enthusiasm for this topic, you seem to consider leather an appropriate covering for a reproduction of the Hohenklingen lentner. Have I misunderstood your objection to my opinion that it isn't because leather doesn't breathe?

Among the multitudes of remarkable and ingenious things you've created or reproduced, have you tried to reproduce this lentner? If so, how did it work out with a leather shell? I've only seen the one assembled and put to work. The result was gorgeous but less than practical. I would be glad to hear how your's worked out.

There are a lot of reasons to choose leather for a particular application. There are ways to make it work under difficult and possibly inappropriate conditions. What is your opinion as to why a leather covering should be presumed in this instance when a fabric covering was applied to many other defensive garments and plate armours in that quarter of the 14thC? As much as I love leather, I can't see why it would be better in this case.

[Chris Gilman]

My rebuttals where not necessarily in support of one garment over another. Just that your arguments against why leather would not work did not seem valid. You may be very correct in regards to the garment your referring to, I do not have direct evidence of leather under garments in use for this purpose other than many Viking age renactors using it. Again I was talking about Viking age and not supporting that one garment was leather and not fabric. I read reasons why someone says this or that won’t work and when I see holes in their arguments I debate their reasons. Over the years I have read how “ ______(fill in the blank) is impossible or improbableâ€

[Russ Mitchell]

Kersme:

They're all wrong. Sorta.

In Serbia and the north Balkans, and anywhere else with Cuman or Hungarian influence (and, as you know, the prevalence of the same guys working occasionally on all sides makes for the "blender" effect we know and love), a tight leather jacket made of relatively thick soft leather is absolutely correct.

We also have some artistic evidence of same being worn underneath armor by troops that are not merely functioning as light horsemen. The wall fresco at Karacsonyfalva being one example. (The leather in question, far as I can tell, was commonly alum-tanned, meaning sweat salts are a non-issue (because alum tanning involves the use of salt)).

For western Europe or the Italian city-states, however, they're quite correct. The material is simply too expensive to be used for the purpose.

[kersme]

I like the sound of that, do you have a picture/photo by any chance?

btw. will you be coming to Kaliakra in august?

thanks,

kersme

[Russ Mitchell]

I'd love to come to Kaliakra... I've been threatened with death if I do. (That's my anniversary: figure out a way to make that really attractive to my wife, and I could maybe budget it in.)

I do have a photo or two at home from Karasconyfalva... not great quality, though.. my digicam... well, it sucks. They haven't been published yet, so I don't have a book I can point you to, unfortunately. I'll see if I can find a good one.

[Rittmeister Frye]

From the later decades of the 16th Century through to the end of the age of plate, leather was THE garment for wearing under armour in the form of a buff coat. Though by the middle of the 17th Century if was often worn independently of any plate, the rational in the first place was that the buff coat was what amounted to being the arming doublet for the masses. Usually worn over the wearer's civilian doublet, it protected said doublet from the chaffing and wear engendered by the plate .

I invariably wear my sleeveless buff coat under my plate, and I find it to be perfectly serviceable, even in the summer time. I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily comfortable, but it's certainly bearable. Of course, I very seldom lower my status by dismounting to engage people on foot. (That I live in Western Washington State helps me keep cooler, too...)

Cheers!

Gordon

[Klaus the Red]

Sure, but let's distinguish at this point between a defensive leather garment supplemented by partial plate and a foundation garment under full plate. I don't think you'd find a buff coat used as an arming doublet under a 3/4 harness of the period, would you? I assume your portrayal would be wearing at the most a peascod, helmet, gorget and gauntlets? Adding full arm and shoulder armor plus habergeon or mail voiders would probably give it a whole extra level of hot.

[Rhia]

(Logged into my wife's computer)

My Karacsonyfalva pictures suck. I don't have enough of a close-up that what I need to show is visible, and the wall-paintings haven't been restored yet.

What is shown is this sort of coat worn underneath a mail defense, with a large shield and great helm. An oddly-visored form of sugarloaf, at that.

In the region, anybody wearing Italianate plate armor from the end of the 14th on would likely be following Italian fashions. But that's a very different question than what started the thread, simply asking if it were period. Especially in the Balkans, with a very wide variety of armors worn being available, Gordon's example works very well as an parallel. (In fact, I made the analogy myself in an upcoming article of the JMMH due out next year).

There are two excellent reasons why the buff coat pops into being in Western Europe, that have taken me a crapload of effort to figure out, after having been absent for a long time:

1. As previously stated, leather, particularly soft leather, gets more affordable
2. Cloth arming garments are **worthless** against powder burns. If you have a bad burn, or the wind blows burning powder back at you, it will go through a wool garment like the Mongols through Persia. However, leather will stop the burning cinders. You can see pictorial evidence of the habit in images of old musket/arquebus/etc fire, when the shooters are draping the business side of their faces with their hats, so as to not risk a bunch of burning powder in the face and eye.

[Klaus the Red]

Cloth arming garments are **worthless** against powder burns

Wow! Really good point- I would have never thought of that. That's the sort of thing that's probably intuitive to black-powder reenactors and blacksmiths, of which I am neither.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Sure, but let's distinguish at this point between a defensive leather garment supplemented by partial plate and a foundation garment under full plate. I don't think you'd find a buff coat used as an arming doublet under a 3/4 harness of the period, would you? I assume your portrayal would be wearing at the most a peascod, helmet, gorget and gauntlets? Adding full arm and shoulder armor plus habergeon or mail voiders would probably give it a whole extra level of hot.

You absolutely would see a buff coat under 3/4 armour. According to John Cruso in his Militarie Instructions for the Cavallrie (1632), he notes that both Lancer and Cuirassier (aka Pistolier) was to wear a "buff coat with long skirts to weare between his armour and his clothes". The buff coat only became a primary defensive armour after the discarding of armour defenses for the arms and thighs.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Blaine de Navarre]

That guy just wouldn't accept what he was being told...

Yeah, good thing that never happens here on the Archive.

[Klaus the Red]

All right, then. Since there seems to be evidence in favor of every other case, it seems the only argument left to us is whether a leather covered quilted garment with cotton or textile inner layers is practical under plate armor.

[Rittmeister Frye]

All right, then. Since there seems to be evidence in favor of every other case, it seems the only argument left to us is whether a leather covered quilted garment with cotton or textile inner layers is practical under plate armor.

I refuse to believe that we can't agree to argue about SOMETHING! I guess this will have to do.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Rittmeister Frye]

I assume your portrayal would be wearing at the most a peascod, helmet, gorget and gauntlets? Adding full arm and shoulder armor plus habergeon or mail voiders would probably give it a whole extra level of hot.

Sorry, I didn't notice this question (even though I quoted it above). Although I'm not wearing either my burgonet or close helmet here, I do in fact usually wear full arm harness of pauldrons and vambraces as well as a corselet.



Cheers!

Gordon

[Klaus the Red]

OK, here's a theory: in an increasingly firearm-heavy environment, did a single layer of buff leather generally come to replace mail as the interstitial protection for the fully (or mostly) armored nobleman for the reasons cited above?

PS, I like the direction this conversation has taken- I don't mind being proven wrong if I learn something new in exchange.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Klaus;

I believe (and Chef can quickly prove me wrong if I am) that for the most part the wearing of maille in any other than the form of voiders and a skirt peeking out from under the plate was pretty much abandoned by some time in the 15th Century. It certainly had been by the early 16th Century. For the most part, the arming doublets in use during those centuries were still fabric as well. To the best of my knowledge, the use of buff for arming doublets, or as a substitute for armour in and of itself, is a second-half of the 16th Century phenomenon. The earliest reference I've seen to their use is 1562, which of course is well into not simply the gunpowder age, but moreso the heavy use of pistols by Cavalry.

I think that there may be some merit in the idea that leather was used for it's virtue of being fire resistant, but it would only really matter in regards to the offensive use of pistols, since only they HAD to be discharged at very close range to be effective. Many are the illustrations from the 30-Years War of cavalrymen actually pressing the muzzles of their pistols against the breast (or under arm!) of their opponent and giving fire. And since even as few as two layers of linen was sufficient to stop a pistol bullet which had penetrated a steel breastplate (Graz, 1988), a good stout buff coat would add a great deal of protection to both the fire and the lead being spewn forth from the opponent's pistol. At least this is my own conjecture.

That the buff coat eventually replaced most of the other armour worn (other than the cuirass) is more a case of it being all that was left when the superfluous armour was discarded due to a change in tactics and strategies during the 30-Years War, rather than the excess plate being actually replaced by the leather. By the end of the 17th Century, and the rise of professional National armies, the expense of such buff leather was becoming a drain on the exchequer and such coats were in due course replaced in turn by woolen Regimentals, though a few French and Austrian Cuirassier units hung on to their buff coats in the form of buff leather sleeved waistcoats for another century or so.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Tibbie Croser]

Gordon, do you mean the wearing of maille with plate, or do you mean the wearing of maille in any form, with or without plate armor? Derrick's The Image of Ireland, from the 1570s or 1580s, shows English Border Horse soldiers wearing what look like mail shirts.

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

That guy just wouldn't accept what he was being told...

Yeah, good thing that never happens here on the Archive.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Gordon, do you mean the wearing of maille with plate, or do you mean the wearing of maille in any form, with or without plate armor? Derrick's The Image of Ireland, from the 1570s or 1580s, shows English Border Horse soldiers wearing what look like mail shirts.

I mean as in a full Man-at-Arms wearing a maille shirt under his full plate harness was definitely out of style by the late-15th Century. You're right that in the 16th Century there were plenty of folks still wearing just maille shirts, and lots with maille sleeves combined with a plate corselet, or maille voiders and skirt under plate, but the fashion for wearing full maille under the plate was over by some point in the 15th Century, and probably going out of style some time before that in certain circles.

Cheers!

Gordon