could this be built

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:13 pm

Welcome to the archive man....if we all got our panties in ruffles....we would be living in 17th century France.

Dont ever take anything personal around here.

Just as an example, Chef and I are a perfect example of two intelligent people (with formal history degrees) who have a long history of quibbling over minutia and interpretive perspectives. Sometimes I agree with him, others I dont.

I think I speak for everyone when I say often its more how a question, statement or thought was introduced, layed out and presented to members that might set people off.

But in an ideal setting, we should all be mindful of the fact that when correcting someone, we should be gentle and kind about it.

Conversely, dont suggest something that you dont have a whole lot of factual data for...or any reason to think it. Speculation is very welcome in my opinion, so long as you have something to speculate about.

Buck up brother.....consider it a frat hazing.

nkante · Post by **nkante** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:43 pm

hello reckless. my name is nkante. i fight in the sca with a west african persona. i am from the benine empire. my first set of armor was raw hide to simulate the leopard hides that they used. they were so effective that the portugues abandoned their steel breastplates when they colonized the area. I dont look at it as an african in europe. I am an african in medieval africa. Just because they didn't see us doesn't mean we weren't there. Our world might not have been known to most of europe, but africa had a long history of contact. Hannibal used west africans in his army. Burnt faces are written about in greek mythology. i am also looking for some to help me design a helm inspired by a mask. So i say build your helm. I would love to see your rig. If any one has a problem with west africa in the sca... then meet me on the field!

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:51 pm

nkante wrote:hello reckless. my name is nkante. i fight in the sca with a west african persona. i am from the benine empire. my first set of armor was raw hide to simulate the leopard hides that they used. they were so effective that the portugues abandoned their steel breastplates when they colonized the area. I dont look at it as an african in europe. I am an african in medieval africa. Just because they didn't see us doesn't mean we weren't there. Our world might not have been known to most of europe, but africa had a long history of contact. Hannibal used west africans in his army. Burnt faces are written about in greek mythology. i am also looking for some to help me design a helm inspired by a mask. So i say build your helm. I would love to see your rig. If any one has a problem with west africa in the sca... then meet me on the field!

RecklessAgony wrote: okay just to let everyone know im not saying these pics os saint maurice are factual im telling what my research has turned up i dont trully believe saint maurice was even from ghana i dont think he was near ghana if fact i dont think he knew where ghana was............ Freiman about spelling Lamiin Pronounced LAY MEN tribe is only about 7000 - 12000 people its not a large kingdom... 13th century ghana i believe fell do to the islam influence that swept through the ivory coast and with a koran or death mantality of there new ruler lead to the hard ships they face today i trully thank you all for the interesting tidbits you are finding on the way also. i think you are centainly right about The caravan story from ghana to have me end up in northern europe its trully be fitting my "persona" i geuss is how you say....... thanks again will update more later.......

Sock puppet?

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:31 am

And does fraternity-hazing wear holes in sock puppets...? :twisted:

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:17 am

Durasteel Corporation wrote:Sock puppet?

That gets my bet. The similarity in posting style alone is pretty clear.

Sad. Truly sad.

Effingham

Seved Ribbing · Post by **Seved Ribbing** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:56 am

Not to throw gas on the fire, but...what about the person or people I have heard about with a Myan persona being at Pensic?

RecklessAgony · Post by **RecklessAgony** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:17 am

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:49 am

nkante wrote: If any one has a problem with west africa in the sca... then meet me on the field!

whoa! slow down there hoss. You better check yourself before you right a check someone else will cash for you.

The SCA list field is no place for personal grudges and vendettas.

I don't know where you come from, or how long you have been in the SCA, but comments like that can quickly turn into much more serious circumstances.

Now, if you want to come on here and support Reckless, that is fine, show us your rig, tell us about your persona, provide DOCUMENTATION. You will find us much more amenable to you. But, if you come on here thumping your chest and challanging people, you will be razed and ignored.

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:43 pm

whoa! slow down there hoss. You better check yourself before you right a check someone else will cash for you.
The SCA list field is no place for personal grudges and vendettas. I don't know where you come from, or how long you have been in the SCA, but comments like that can quickly turn into much more serious circumstances.

Nkante is a Man At Arms within House Serpentius and fights valiantly alongside us, be it 1180's Crusaders, Roman Pitfighters or Persians...

He fought in last year's Warriors of History Tournament at Pennsic and is one of the few guys I know who puts his Persona and kit before his advancement martially. To naysay him off the bat and call him a sock puppet and to mock him is childish and very unbecoming of people who could help or say nothing.
Accept the Challenge of helping this newer guy out, or point him in what vague direction you can. Meet Nkante' or I or any of us for that matter on the field if you feel as if he has no place in the game.That's what this is right? A game, so there should be no reason to take away someone's aspirations why they are so fresh and new.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:48 pm

Joseph wrote:Arms within House Serpentius and fights valiantly alongside us, be it 1180's Crusaders, Roman Pitfighters or Persians...

He fought in last year's Warriors of History Tournament at Pennsic and is one of the few guys I know who puts his Persona and kit before his advancement martially. To naysay him off the bat and call him a sock puppet and to mock him is childish and very unbecoming of people who could help or say nothing.
Accept the Challenge of helping this newer guy out, or point him in what vague direction you can. Meet Nkante' or I or any of us for that matter on the field if you feel as if he has no place in the game.That's what this is right? A game, so there should be no reason to take away someone's aspirations why they are so fresh and new.

bolding mine

And I will tell you the same thing I told him. personal vendettas have no place on the list field. And to challenge someone to a "parking lot fight" because of a disagreement can get your fighter card yanked.

THAT is what I was addressing.

nkante · Post by **nkante** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:09 pm

I have no idea what the heck sock puppet means. Reckless and I are two different people. Maybe we sound the same because we are both pissed off about all the animosity toward non western personnas. When I am on the field i hear nothing but encouragement from most fighters. Its only online that i hear people complaining about non european cultures in the sca. That is why i said meet me on the field. i'm no bully. I'm an honorable fighter. In europe the warrior code is chivalry. In japan i believe its called bushido. In most of africa the warrior code is 'bravado'. So as a warrior from west africa, yes i am thumping my chest. I'll fight any valiant warriors, be they samurii, gladiator, knight or celt. I dont care where you're from, I don't discriminate. This is the S.C.A. Anachranism means out of place. How can anthing be not belong in a society of people that are out of place? PS... I'll be at Mud Thaw (East Kingdom, NJ) next weekend. I extend a 'friendly' challenge. Best two out three. If you win i'll present you with a special token from the Unknown Dark Lands.

nkante · Post by **nkante** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:13 pm

I just read the vendetta part. This is not about revenge. It's about honor and proving that non western personnas have the right to share the battle field and market place with Europe. And i never told anyone to meet me in the parking lot or the school yard. I said the field.

RecklessAgony · Post by **RecklessAgony** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:20 pm

nkante · Post by **nkante** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:27 pm

And while i'm at it... I met a maya warrior at pennsic. His body armor simulated jag' skins. When asked about his conquistador (sp) helm, he said he killed one of cortez's men and took his head. His creativity demonstrates his right to be in the society. What about native americans? Do they belong in the SCA? Well there is eveidence to support that Europe had contact with them long before Columbus, via North Atlantic Ice routes. So if a tribe of medieval Souix showd up at Pennsic would they turned away? And I've got enough documentation about Euro-African contact to choke a sock puppet!

And how come I don't see any brown emoticons?

spearweasel · Post by **spearweasel** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:07 pm

nkante wrote:And while i'm at it... I met a maya warrior at pennsic. His body armor simulated jag' skins. When asked about his conquistador (sp) helm, he said he killed one of cortez's men and took his head. His creativity demonstrates his right to be in the society. What about native americans? Do they belong in the SCA? Well there is eveidence to support that Europe had contact with them long before Columbus, via North Atlantic Ice routes. So if a tribe of medieval Souix showd up at Pennsic would they turned away? And I've got enough documentation about Euro-African contact to choke a sock puppet!

And how come I don't see any brown emoticons?

With a chip on one's shoulder that big, it could be a heater shield. I marvel at the difference between what is said and what is heard sometimes. :roll:

Nobody here said African personae didn't belong on the field. Or their right to be in the SCA. What they did say is that Reckless_Agony's helmet probably didn't ever actually exist, since that is part of what he asked. The suggestion of sockpuppetry comes from:

a) similarity of posting styles twixt you and Reckless_Agony
b) the fact that the repliers have not heard of you before now.

Lighten up, Francis, and post some pictures of your kit. I wanna see what West African looks like in the SCA... what are you playing? Ghana, Mali, Songhai?

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:22 pm

hey nkante,

If you need a 3rd you let me know. I will be there right with you.

Your kit is amazing and I would have to say it is one of my favorites out
there!

-H

RecklessAgony · Post by **RecklessAgony** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:08 am

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:14 am

I don't think anyone mentioned parking lots.
They did however instantly assume that someone is a fake, which if you knew the guy you would understand that its not a chip but an irration to read disheartening stuff online.
The only melodramatic ones in this have been those assuming he was talking about a fistfight or insinuating that it could get an auth card pulled.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Higpmx-HwQM

thats a cool video (2nd guy in is Nkante)

here's a shot from the lost boys kamikaze battle
Nkante is sitting down for a sec in a rez

sorry if the pic is big, i can't resize it with this comp..

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:45 am

Reckless....

Look the two posts were extremely similar and had very similar tones.

I have tried to advise you but you seem far more angry than willing to listen to good reason.

I dont think any of us have an issue with the western african persona. Its the way youve approached the topic so defensively that egged some folks on.

Are you interested in advice or are you interested in mining for discrimination that might not be there? Just because some dont agree with your approach doesnt mean we have an agenda against you or anything african per se. I certainly dont.

Go re-read my post in the "I want a be a"...forum. Youll find my main concern was protection and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole when it came to your desired equipment.

What I do find troubling is your unwillingness to consider advice (even if you dont agree with it) without becoming defensive. God knows we have all had ideas and thoughts that have been shot down.

RecklessAgony · Post by **RecklessAgony** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:15 am

Durasteel I would instruct you to reread my last post. Im saying i understand after taking the time to listen and let things soak in what you and irish and a few others were saying. We work for the History, Not the other way around. I know the persona i was thinking of was a littlle "HOLLYWOODISH" but from the reseearch i had found it seemed to fit and so everyone knows im not nkante i hope everyone has that clear.

spearweasel · Post by **spearweasel** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:15 am

Oh.. Benin. Cool!

It's always interesting to see how non-Western armor that isn't "metal armors in the usual patterns" get translated over to what SCA chiv combat requires. I like your rig, especially the short stabbing spear. How does that work out for you?

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:16 pm

That was last year's rig. New rig is sick. I don't think he has pictures taken yet. Might have some after next saturday at Mudthaw

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:33 pm

Yo, I think I got a pic of the new rig, I will see about posting it Monday.

Also, Last time I heard sock puppet was a derogatory term, is it not?

-Horace

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:19 am

Joseph wrote:The only melodramatic ones in this have been those assuming he was talking about a fistfight or insinuating that it could get an auth card pulled.

Oh, I am neither melodramatic OR insinuating anything. What I read was that nkante challanged all those who don't like his persona to a fight on an SCA listfield. I interpretated that as a "parking lot fist fight" because he didn't like that others were not impressed by his "wierd" persona. THAT WILL GET YOUR FIGHTER CARD YANKED.

Per the Society Marshal's Handbook:

Application of Rule 6: Engaging in any Society combat activity with the deliberate intent to inflict bodily harm to an opponent is strictly forbidden.

So, I read the above as challanging me to a fight because he didn't like what I had to say. That is forbidden by the rules we play by.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:40 am

More and more and more do topics like this make me want to put together a Q'in Dynasty foot soldier....

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:30 pm

PiRho wrote:Yo, I think I got a pic of the new rig, I will see about posting it Monday.

Also, Last time I heard sock puppet was a derogatory term, is it not?

-Horace

The web forum term "sock puppet" simply means someone who has two accounts for the same forum....for a variety of reasons. To bolster their own comments, ideas, sales, etc.....or to act as a discreet procurement arm of the owner.

RecklessAgony · Post by **RecklessAgony** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:34 pm

Steel. Who are you saying has two profiles on here....... i dont understand why this thread went from being so helpfull to so down right depressive. For about a week straight people were giving suggestions and help critisism, even if i didnt see it as helpfull.........

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:48 pm

People were unsure if you and Nkatos were the "same person" due to the similarity in posting style. Hence the "sock puppet" part of the discussion.

I would add my voice to those pushing more for a complete unified portrayal of a Ghanan (Ghanian?) warrior, as opposed to a "Scottish Ninja" backstory about how you came to Europe (captured, freed, mercenary, etc), and why various parts of your armour were from areas. If you run across Africans in armour and clothes from various areas, I would agree that would have historical basis, but I kind of doubt you will find the Mask/Helm with a cothardie. It sounds like you are "overthinking" the whole "European Persona backstory" a bit too much. Just roll with what you like, and go for it. You may have your work cut out a bit in finding primary research material for the area though. Perhaps you might want to consider going with something more towards the Egyptian Arab look?

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:49 pm

RecklessAgony wrote:Steel. Who are you saying has two profiles on here....... i dont understand why this thread went from being so helpfull to so down right depressive. For about a week straight people were giving suggestions and help critisism, even if i didnt see it as helpfull.........

Reckless....this is becoming tiresome man. But on a personal note Reckless....you have a knack for blowing off good advice from the logical importance of reasonably "intelligable grammer" (especially as a new member) and as someone who is obviously, and perhaps not unreasonably, sensative about the nature of their subject.

My most immediate comment above was the definition of the term sockpuppet in direct response to the ridiculous suggestion I was being....sigh... derogatory. Im not sure how someone who went out of their way to amicably advise you could be seen as also being publically derogatory.

I really dont care if you have a sockpuppet account or not. However like the echoes of a handful of other people who clearly noticed it, the similarities and the carelessly brazen comments should cease.

I would like nothing more than seeing you develop a reasonable persona that satisfies your interest in African imperial history and also protects you. That has been much of my interest here and in the "I want to be a" forum, ie, in making sure you protect yourself adequately.

My suggestion is to do some more academic research and to map out what you think you should wear. Then, if you have concerns, offer up the safety of your kit for suggestive criticism.

cheers
Drew

RecklessAgony · Post by **RecklessAgony** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:20 pm

I have taken alot of what you have said Steel in to carefull consideration. I have been doing nothing but trying to trim the unrealistic "fat" off ot of this story. Which i created.

hef de chambre
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject:
Look, are you interested in History, or not?

Nobody is patronizing you that I have seen, I was just trying to give you factual data.

If you want to emphasize the African equipment, then portray a native of Ghana in Ghana in the Middle ages - Ghana has a rich and interesting history. NOBODY in the SCA is going to enforce the rule that you have to pretend to be in Europe- the only rules they ever enforce are safety rules.

One of the rules of the SCA that creates fantasy portrayals is the insistence on the "events' occurring in Medieval Europe - for God's sake, you have Vikings chatting with Elizabethans- a complete temporal impossibility. Worse yet, in made up SCA kingdoms - but then insisting that people have to be accurate to Geography.

When you lay it out plain, it is ridiculous. It would encourage *accurate* interesting portrayals to leave out the Geographic insistence entirely, and approach the whole damned thing as a timeline. Unbless you can show me the Meridies on a Medieval European map, or any other made-up kingdom.

After reading Chefs post I had to do some real thinking and read. I read up on more new knowledge and found, not only falsehoods to truths but many truths to falsehoods. I am not saying I'm not listening, I just took me couple days to hear the message. I am in no way saying any advice was unusable. Just saying i didnt know what to use it for at the time. thanks again guys. BTW the helm originaly in question i dont think i ever would have worn. Something that expensize gets a shelf. Talk to youll later

freiman the minstrel · Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:10 pm

Actually, I have thought about this, and I want to help.

I would encourage you to put together the cites and the sources to be absolutely sure about your portrayal, but in the end, that is not something that is important enough to refuse to help a newbie. It's true that you will have a better time if you have all the scholarly stuff lined up.

I like to think that I would help a new guy regardless.

The mask can be done two ways. It can be done on the cheap, out of leather, or it can be done more espensively out of steel. If it's leather, it has to be an overlay over a legal SCA helm. If it's steel, it can be made as part of one, as part of the helmet's construction.

Regardless, unless you are a world class master metal artist, or you are able to pay one, we are going to be looking at a representation of the mask, rather than a copy of the mask, because it will have to conform to SCA fighting safety rules. Basic helms run around one hundred to two hundred and fifty bucks. Since you would be planning to have the mask cover the face plate, consider using a solid face plate, as they tend to stick out less, if not, consider getting a copy of the armor rules, and having the bar grill completely redone to accomodate the mask.

Just because the mask would be made out of leather doesn't mean that it would have to be ugly. If you come on the field with an ugly copy of the mask, you are going to have a lot more friction.

I am going to recommend that you, at first, commission a representative helm cover, and have it constructed out of leather to match the helmet. I also think that you should consider deepening the dish of the mask (the concavity) so that it curves to match the shape of your helm's face plate. You might also consider enlarging the occulars (eye holes) if it can be done without compromising the integrity of the piece.

Don't skimp too much, and make sure you have the right leather worker. You want a piece of art, not a cover up. There are lots of excellent leather artists on this forum, and others elsewhere. Not all of them will be able to do this piece well, and not all will be willing to work that far outside their comfort zone. Some may just not want to do it. Ask to see photos of their work. I am going to go out on a limb and recommend that you ask Animal Weretiger, who is on this forum as "Animal" because he would be amused by a number of folks who would be offended at a non-European personna on the field. I am guessing that he would view that offense as bonus points.

After that, you need to have your hands, joints (knees and elbows), short ribs and kidneys, and your neck and throat covered. Those can also all be done in leather, and they can be stained, dyed, painted or even have stuff glued onto them. I would recommend that if you plan on doing SCA fighting, that you, at the very least, include forearm harness of some sort. This game has a lot of broken arms.

In the statuette you posted the pic of, the warrior is wearing three things that can go a long way toward heightening the wow power of the kit. First, the figurine is wearing an armband that looks as if it could very well be a viking arm ring. While it is very unlikely that it is, it shares some characteristics with them like the curling embellishments. An Tir (the SCA "kingdom" that Washington State is part of) has a whole lot of vikings. Ask around if there is anybody who makes arm rings. Don't explain why, just ask to find the person, and get that particular arm ring made.

The pendant is also really cool. You might be able to find that commercially.

And, finally, the figure is wearing a smile. That last bit is super important. If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

And if there is anything that I can do to help, please let me know.

I am attaching a picture of an SCA mask that I think is quite beautiful.

f

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:17 pm

I've been doing this (SCA) for 26 years and I have heard all sorts of wining about "Fringe' Not period, "Weird" , "________" fill in the blank personas and people anoyed no one understands them or wants them.

Tough Titties!!

Stop your wining and go start your own group or hang out with another group.
Frankly I fed up with Samurai, Spartans, Aztecs and the like. Most of the time they arenâ€™t even done well (Well..... thatâ€™s true of most SCA personas as well :cry:

)
But you know, If you show up to a NASCAR event with a SCCA sports car, Funnyâ€¦They wonâ€™t let you PLAY! BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE RULES!
Try reading the rules of the SCA. No Tuchux, no Native Americans, No Samurai No 18th Century PIRATES. (Or any other: â€œGee wasnâ€™t that a cool movieâ€¦Iâ€™ll have a persona like thatâ€

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:56 pm

I hear ya Reckless. All is good....so lets move on.

First things first....

May I suggest starting with your body armour. Your helmet is obvious important but body armour is, in my opinion, a critical foundation to your suit...I view head and limbs as appendages...which they are.

Now....Im going to go out on a limb here and suggest starting with costume first.

The reason for this is that costume and armour are often mutually influential.

I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that mail or lamellar would not be out of the question....even if aquired via trade.

The image below are generally west african (including Mansa Musa etc)

The book: http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/cata ... 728&ss=fro

Below: Made from terracotta clay, this is an excellent example of medieval West African sculpture. It shows a majestic and dignified figure, probably representing a warrior king, decked out in elaborately detailed jewelry and armed with a quiver of arrows and a distinctive type of dagger on his upper left arm. These daggers are still worn by the nomadic Tuareg people, who dominate the caravan routes crossing the Sahara desert. It is quite possible that the warrior was originally mounted on a horse, destroyed over the years. While representational--the sculpture is realistic in that there is a recongizable human form--elements have been exaggerated, such as the jutting, bearded chin, to emphasize the power and dignity of this ruler.
[img]http://www.edunetconnect.com/TimeMachine/contentimages/djenne.gif[/img]

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:13 pm

GOLDMINE of images---maybe some armoured ones:

http://www.vub.ac.be/BIBLIO/nieuwenhuys ... e1980.html

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:27 pm

What I read was that nkante challanged all those who don't like his persona to a fight on an SCA listfield
I interpretated that as a "parking lot fist fight" because he didn't like that others were not impressed by his "wierd" persona. THAT WILL GET YOUR FIGHTER CARD YANKED.

Actually reading one thing, interpreting another and then threatening something that is not possible seems to the only thing weird going on.
You read SCA List. But you then admitted to assuming he meant "parking lot"? .I don't know why you would think that way since he was pretty straight forward with it or why it would make sense to assume he is that low of a person to want a fist fight over it. Either way zero of what was said on here in this thread or just about any thread will get an auth card pulled. In this instance you made a lot of noise of something relatively simple. Application of Rule 6 has no mention of Internet Challenges being made to be carried out in the List.

could this be built

Lets let this die