could this be built

[InsaneIrish]

Actually reading one thing, interpreting another and then threatening something that is not possible seems to the only thing weird going on.
You read SCA List. But you then admitted to assuming he meant "parking lot"? .I don't know why you would think that way since he was pretty straight forward with it or why it would make sense to assume he is that low of a person to want a fist fight over it. Either way zero of what was said on here in this thread or just about any thread will get an auth card pulled. In this instance you made a lot of noise of something relatively simple. Application of Rule 6 has no mention of Internet Challenges being made to be carried out in the List. [/b]

[/quote]


you COMPLETELY miss my point. I apologize for not writing clear enough for you to understand.

The use of the internet has nothing to do with anything. It is only the chosen forum for the challange.

The word "parking lot" only refers to an immature act of highschool kids to challange one another to a fight in the "parking lot". It does not actually refer to him challanging people to fight in an actual parking lot.

And I never said that big talk and chest thumping on the internet would end with a fighter card being pulled.

I DID say that challanging someone to a fight ON THE LIST FIELD with the perceived intent to settle a real life grudge CAN get your fighter card pulled.

If nkante wants to fight someone in the lists over their view of his persona, what will that prove? If he follows the rules the only thing that it will prove is that he may or may not be a better fighter than the other. It won't change the mind of the looser whether it be nkante or not. Usually such challanges are issued with the intent to actually punish or hurt the other. THAT is what is illegal and will get your card yanked.

You say that is not what he was saying, fine, that is not what he was saying. But, as a marshal of this society, if I were to be part of or over hear such talk I would need to intervene. That is what I was cautioning against.

[Andrew Young]

I like to fight people who dont agree with me...but I dont announce it.

Seriously guys...lets move on here.....

[chef de chambre]

I gotta get me a copy of that book. I think I will need to add a room to the library...

[nkante]

Sir Gaston, I apreciate your frankness. The society is based on the culture of the landed nobility of westen europe. Correct. But many culture outside europe had a hand in shaping that culture. Why would you not want to know more about them? The Gold Coast of africa supplied a major portion of gold to europe through the dessert trade routes with Arabs. I believe anyone interested in medieval metal craft should know about a possible source of their materials. I too strive for historical accuracy. I think blue plastic and pajama pants do more to harm the society than gladiators, but then again i'm only a barbarian.

[nkante]

I appologize for some of the aggrssion that I displayed during my earlier post. It seemed as if there was too much negative, not constructive, critisism. Too many people saying why it wouldn't work, instead of trying to help figure how it could work. Durasteel, those images are great. That is the kind of support I believe reckless was looking for. I think a rig in that style would make the sca proud. Frieman, that mask is the most beautiful thing iv seen. Again, the information and suggestion you provided were very supportive. I too have noticed a slight simularity between some african and viking arms. Leaf shaped spear heads are very simular. I have a pic some where of a short sword from northen nigeria that looks crazy celtic.

[Andrew Young]

nkante

One of the things I think people may have been trying to express (that can be interpretted as borderline racisim or segragationalism--accidently) is the intent of trying to strive or capture a specific age and place.

For the very same reason, elves, gothis, vampires etc have been slowly squeezed out....this doesnt mean I or those who favor such measures hate horror and fantasy movies at all...usually I enjoy them very much--in fact I make fantasy armour for my customers. However that sort of thing isnt what I want to do in my high medieval weekend ya know.

The underlying issue is that, yes...racism and america have a long history together. And make no mistake, there are racists in the sca and the greater living history world...which is unfortunate....moreso that they cant see past stereotypes and temporal culture rather than the longer big picture of African history which is truly impressive.

But the problem is...trying to aim for that high medieval goal (or from a celts point of view...that preRoman age of glory) also generally means that the majority of the participants would have been....white. Lets be honest and candid....Europeans lived in Europe....Africans in Africa.....Asians in Asia.

Would a generic medieval Japanese reenactment society be the same if guys shows up in Crusader tophelms and mail all the time? Of course not. But if white guys put on Samurai armour and went along with the game....I dont think there would be as much of a problem. One or two exceptions (celts wandering the streets of Tokyo.....Australian aborigenes fighting Samurai) might be tolerated as plausbility....but if numbers grew beyond that I can see some reaction to it.

But the legal caveat here is the fine print. I also think its good for members to see other personas....makes us think.

On the other hand....if Im aiming for "Burgundian Camelot"...I dont want to deal with my other passions (sci-fi...Native American stuff....wild west)....I want to play Camelot for that weekend.

.....and I think that may be the reality that many may be trying to express, but which comes across as racist or disrespectful.

Now....at other moments, I love sinking into my chair and turning on Salsa or Merengue and dancing with my caribean hispanic wife....or turning on a great jazz station. Doesnt mean I have no less interest in high medieval culture......I just dont care to mix the two.

....and thats the other sticking point. By attempting to segragate the different interests/cultures....we have to be damn careful we dont sound like bigots, racists, supremicists, etc......white or black.

Life and living his a grey zone....its a balance.

[InsaneIrish]

nkante

One of the things I think people may have been trying to express (that can be interpretted as borderline racisim or segragationalism--accidently) is the intent of trying to strive or capture a specific age and place.

The underlying issue is that, yes...racism and america have a long history together. And make no mistake, there are racists in the sca and the greater living history world...which is unfortunate....moreso that they cant see past stereotypes and temporal culture rather than the longer big picture of African history which is truly impressive.

I am confused. What are you saying here, that those who dis-agree with the SCAs current "big tent acceptance" of personas are somehow being racist?

[freiman the minstrel]

I appologize for some of the aggrssion that I displayed during my earlier post. It seemed as if there was too much negative, not constructive, critisism. Too many people saying why it wouldn't work, instead of trying to help figure how it could work. Durasteel, those images are great. That is the kind of support I believe reckless was looking for. I think a rig in that style would make the sca proud. Frieman, that mask is the most beautiful thing iv seen. Again, the information and suggestion you provided were very supportive. I too have noticed a slight simularity between some african and viking arms. Leaf shaped spear heads are very simular. I have a pic some where of a short sword from northen nigeria that looks crazy celtic.

Nkante,

Despite your earlier slip, I think that you speak well, and it seems that you are a person that I would enjoy being around. If you should happen to make it to war, please accept my invitation to come by Omega Company camp (way out in the bog) for a beer. I would be honored to have you and your brothers as guests. If you are bringing a lot of people, please let me know ahead of time, so that I can make sure that we are well stocked.

I have been friends with a few Kogi Ebu as well as some of the Urhoba, and I would consider it a cool thing to host a member of the Ebu in my camp.

f

[Chris Gilman]

Sir Gaston, I apreciate your frankness. The society is based on the culture of the landed nobility of westen europe. Correct. But many culture outside europe had a hand in shaping that culture. Why would you not want to know more about them? The Gold Coast of africa supplied a major portion of gold to europe through the dessert trade routes with Arabs. I believe anyone interested in medieval metal craft should know about a possible source of their materials. I too strive for historical accuracy. I think blue plastic and pajama pants do more to harm the society than gladiators, but then again i'm only a barbarian.

Sir, you misunderstand me. I love all types of history and have made some very different forms of armour and crafts from all over the world. I was just in Cape town for the first time and spent most of my free time looking through the museums there. I also have made costumes and props for some of the biggest fantasy and Sci-Fi films produced in the past 25 years. However, the SCA by it's own rules it a specific time and place. If I were at an American Civil war event I would be annoyed if I saw a Samurai walking across the field. There may have been one in the US during that time. He may have gone to a battle, but not likely and less likely in armour. That being said, I had a good time researching and making things for "Last Samurai". But I wouldn't wear them in the SCA. If you let one thing outside the rules, how do you know when to stop. How do you control the accuracy of the people attending? Well in the SCA I think that war is lost. So I will see Tuchux at Pennsic, or 18th century pirates at Estrella. I will also see Spartans and Aztecs, trying to mold there portrayal of their persona to a set of rules that are well outside their culture or style of kit.
But I feel that you shouldn't bitch that people aren’t all “warm and fuzzyâ€

[Chris Gilman]

nkante

One of the things I think people may have been trying to express (that can be interpretted as borderline racisim or segragationalism--accidently) is the intent of trying to strive or capture a specific age and place.

For the very same reason, elves, gothis, vampires etc have been slowly squeezed out....this doesnt mean I or those who favor such measures hate horror and fantasy movies at all...usually I enjoy them very much--in fact I make fantasy armour for my customers. However that sort of thing isnt what I want to do in my high medieval weekend ya know.

The underlying issue is that, yes...racism and america have a long history together. And make no mistake, there are racists in the sca and the greater living history world...which is unfortunate....moreso that they cant see past stereotypes and temporal culture rather than the longer big picture of African history which is truly impressive.

But the problem is...trying to aim for that high medieval goal (or from a celts point of view...that preRoman age of glory) also generally means that the majority of the participants would have been....white. Lets be honest and candid....Europeans lived in Europe....Africans in Africa.....Asians in Asia.

Would a generic medieval Japanese reenactment society be the same if guys shows up in Crusader tophelms and mail all the time? Of course not. But if white guys put on Samurai armour and went along with the game....I dont think there would be as much of a problem. One or two exceptions (celts wandering the streets of Tokyo.....Australian aborigenes fighting Samurai) might be tolerated as plausbility....but if numbers grew beyond that I can see some reaction to it.

But the legal caveat here is the fine print. I also think its good for members to see other personas....makes us think.

On the other hand....if Im aiming for "Burgundian Camelot"...I dont want to deal with my other passions (sci-fi...Native American stuff....wild west)....I want to play Camelot for that weekend.

.....and I think that may be the reality that many may be trying to express, but which comes across as racist or disrespectful.

Now....at other moments, I love sinking into my chair and turning on Salsa or Merengue and dancing with my caribean hispanic wife....or turning on a great jazz station. Doesnt mean I have no less interest in high medieval culture......I just dont care to mix the two.

....and thats the other sticking point. By attempting to segragate the different interests/cultures....we have to be damn careful we dont sound like bigots, racists, supremicists, etc......white or black.

Life and living his a grey zone....its a balance.

Ahh??? I'm not sure where this came from, but if it is in any way related to my earlier post...Not even close, this is in no way shape, form or any other way, where I am coming from. (see above)
Although if herbologist is a person that studies herbs and a biologist studies Biology….I do watch an awful lot of racing.
In fact I don't see racism as being an issue that that I have ever witnessed in the SCA. (Other than the English hating the French or vice/ versa)
I don't think it a matter of the SCA looking like anything, other than, we have a set of rules and if your outside those rules you should be asked to play somewhere else.
Although I do think those blood sucking Vampires and pointy eared fairies should go back to the little hole they came from and leave Pennsic to the humans.

[RecklessAgony]

[spearweasel]

Everybody is free. I am free to walk about in my 1570-ish period samurai kit, and you are free to dislike my presence there. Huzzah!

But please don't speak about my kit and those like it in the same breath you would about elf-eared, vampire fanged sexkittens in chainmail bikinis, or men in leather vests with kilts and katanas, or any other such fashion atrocities.

Two totally separate issues.

[Ingvarr]

These Stereotypes are something ive fought for years.

So that's a different Reckless Agony with the grill in their myspace profile pic?

[freiman the minstrel]

Well, I hav'nt looked in this thread in a couple days. Let me say to all the Milky Children of Heaven, Walking into an encampment of 50-100 people all in garb, Seeing symbols, and color patterns unknown to you. ITS SCRAY SHIT. My first event i was scared i was gonna get lynched. I had never seen SO SO SO SO many corn fed white guys. ..

True story.

I was at Pittsburgh Airport, the Monday after Pennsic War (A really, really big SCA event) waiting for a plane. A very pretty girl from my camp had driven me to the airport. Her name was Jodi.

I looked around and said "Which of these people are coming from war, do you think?"

And without batting an eye she said "that's easy. Just look for the fat, bearded, white guys."

f

[audax]

so i took the advice of a few of you and did some google searches and found some trully unknown things to me

one in the 12th century there was a european trade route that was from the ivory coast (ghana) ti the arabias and then to turkey and back to europe this went of for more then 400 year i think im now set in period times

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ld_011.jpg

also im attaching a picture of Saint Maurice of Germany by the accounts ive read theres like two sorrys of him one he was s slave of a german general and he worked out to become free and ended up a martyr and national hero

or the other side of the coin

he was a stow away that tried to reach england and was trapped and beated by a ships captain and then droppee at the feet of a church where he became a "god sent" speaker for slaves...........

i find either story a little convient.

Dude, St. Maurice was not from Germany. He was not a slave of a German general and he was not ever put on a slave ship. He was a member of the Christian Theban legion in the 3rd century AD, sent to Gaul to put down a rebellion. He was martyred for refusing to harass local Christians at the behest of Emperor Maximian.

Ghana is the Gold Coast.

I'm beginning to doubt the authenticity of your Ghanian material if this is the best you can do on St. Maurice.

[audax]

not worth it

[MJBlazek]

yeah... soooo putting together that Chinese kit now.

[Chris Gilman]

Everybody is free. I am free to walk about in my 1570-ish period samurai kit, and you are free to dislike my presence there. Huzzah!

But please don't speak about my kit and those like it in the same breath you would about elf-eared, vampire fanged sexkittens in chainmail bikinis, or men in leather vests with kilts and katanas, or any other such fashion atrocities.

Two totally separate issues.

They are not separate issues. You state that basically you are above the rules because your persona is based on an historical figure? If I hit you with my fist or a bat it is still battery and breaking the rules. The item that broke the rule is not the issue; it is the action that is.
It is precisely the Samurai, Aztec, Native American, Chinese, and other historical out of period/ location personas in the SCA that makes it difficult to enforce the rules across the board. I feel this is one of the reasons that the SCA is viewed as a joke to people outside the group. (and some people in the group)
There is far more credibility and respect for other groups that have strict guidelines for what you can and cannot wear or portray. In my profession, historical correctness has hardly been a requirement. But professionalism in execution and presentation is. I am embarrassed to say I’m in the SCA to most of these people. But say I do Civil War or European reenactment and they are impressed, because they enforce their rules and present a more professional and educated image.

RecklessAgony,
Racism is rampant all over the world I am afraid to say. The people with the power will almost always exercise that power, no matter the color of skin or background. Sometimes it is racism and sometimes it's the person without the power viewing as such. Sadly if is difficult for the sides to see which it is. I would hope no one in the SCA is showing you deliberate and outright racist actions or attitudes. There are many in the SCA who would take great offense to that type of attitude. I myself being one of them. My best friend was Kevin Peter Hall. He played the “Predatorâ€

[Andrew Young]

Easy Audax...easy. Your tone is a bit harsh man.

Gaston...no, no....nothing aimed at you at all man.

Irish,....what I was saying summed up:


1] racism and stereotypical cultural bigotry does unfortunately exist in the SCA as with the world.

2] but it should not be confused with an attempt to isolate and achieve a specific time/regional phenomenon....which is generally Europe, 500-1500.

3] however given the Big Tent fineprint and the fact that a little diversity makes for a more interesting event...I dont think most of us mine a sprinkling of this and that.

4] but that sprinkling should be confined to some type of attempt at historically accurate themes, and not elves, vampires, goths, emos, and loined cloth porta-potty explosive experts.

[spearweasel]

Everybody is free. I am free to walk about in my 1570-ish period samurai kit, and you are free to dislike my presence there. Huzzah!

But please don't speak about my kit and those like it in the same breath you would about elf-eared, vampire fanged sexkittens in chainmail bikinis, or men in leather vests with kilts and katanas, or any other such fashion atrocities.

Two totally separate issues.

They are not separate issues. You state that basically you are above the rules because your persona is based on an historical figure? If I hit you with my fist or a bat it is still battery and breaking the rules. The item that broke the rule is not the issue; it is the action that is.
It is precisely the Samurai, Aztec, Native American, Chinese, and other historical out of period/ location personas in the SCA that makes it difficult to enforce the rules across the board. I feel this is one of the reasons that the SCA is viewed as a joke to people outside the group. (and some people in the group)
There is far more credibility and respect for other groups that have strict guidelines for what you can and cannot wear or portray. In my profession, historical correctness has hardly been a requirement. But professionalism in execution and presentation is. I am embarrassed to say I’m in the SCA to most of these people. But say I do Civil War or European reenactment and they are impressed, because they enforce their rules and present a more professional and educated image.

Sadly, the SCA is not one of those groups... never really has been, as I recall. It started with a backyard party, didn't it? Japanese personae in particular have been part of the Known World since near the beginning. The SCA could have evolved into something like MRON, which I respect immensely... but it didn't. It's not the game I choose to play, anyhow - if I was to go to one of Jehane de Pelham's events, I certainly would attempt to blend, within my budget.

If you don't separate relatively accurate attempts at non-European persona from the "Lord Darkslayer von Ravensoul, the Drow Highland Samurai Viking Ninja with a Slipknot T-Shirt":twisted:, I don't believe there is much point in continuing the discussion. It is plainly a personal issue for you, and while I hope non-European personae don't detract from your enjoyment, that's life. Different strokes for different folks.

If we ever meet on the field, Sir Gaston, take some small comfort that I will never light you up with a Magic Missile, or pelt you with a Lightning Bolt beanbag. I'll try to pummel you with the exact same sort of sticks that you usually see on the field, made up to resemble the actual weapons they model.

Good day, sir.

The Japanese Thing: A Reasoned Response
Copyright 2007 Lisa A. Joseph, except *copyright 2005 Ron Broberg.
http://www.wodefordhall.com/japanesething.htm

[audax]

I don't mean to be especially harsh. Just clear.

His "milky children of heaven" comment was just asinine.

I withdrew my comment. Not worth getting dirty over.

His info on St. Maurice was flat out wrong. Leads me to wonder about the veracity of everything else he's posted.

I don't care what color a person is or where their persona is from, just so long as they do it well.

[Chris Gilman]

Well spearweasle, you did a fine job of sidestepping the point of my response. First, whether it started as a party or as a group of Yale grad students portraying Agincourt, it still has rules and these rules are either held to or broken. Second, It is a issue to me, otherwise I would not have bothered with a response. It is also a issue with many others, that was the point of my original response. Fringe (non European) personas getting crap from people in the SCA as to the choice of their persona. So there for it is not a personal issue in the way you mean it. Also since I didn’t pick you individually from anyone else it was not “personal" in any other other way. This is:
You have drawn an imaginary line in the sand. Imaginary to you. Deciding that you are better than those who in your view are outside the rules because they have a different line in the sand is missing the point I posed, completely. In the future try to have a rebuttal that addresses the point made verses saying well….I right and your wrong! And if you don’t agree… well I’m not talking to you anymore! By a response like that, you are correct in one way: a further discussion is pointless.

[Joseph]

I have no doubt in the years to come Nkante will one day be a Laurel for his dedication and research into his persona. He has shrugged off alot of easy side steps to keep his kit authentic and has made it through the rigorous standards to fight in the Warriors Of History tournament at Pennsic. There are but a few other guys I know who have spent as short as time in the SCA as he has with as much love and dedication to his persona. That kind of dedication shouldn't be turned away because it doesnt fit parameters that were set decades ago. Obviously with all the japanese folk and such involved in very high places in the society there is room for Nkante's persona but I think anyone with his spirit should be welcomed. Its that kind of incentive seeing him in his kit every practice that makes me look forward to the day where I am across from him in the List in a more presentable manner then I am today. He is an awesome guy, great friend and is always learning and improving on his stuff. I can't say the same for many people I know locally.

To those who feel as if his persona doesn't fit within the SCA after knowing how much he works on his stuff.. would you rather turn your back on that kind of spirit or accept it in, knowing its not western yet hoping his work ethic and spirit could inspire others who are in fact along the lines that were originally set?

to Irish- Kind of got confused by you in the begiining. Your last post cleared it up. Internet talk makes people read too much into it and you may have interpreted it as fighting words outside the list. Nothing could be further from the point. Nkante is a proud African warrior and an awesome opponent. Its weekly challenges like that one here that I get via text message that make us look forward for the brawls on tuesday night..
take care/be well.

[RecklessAgony]

U win

[spearweasel]

Well spearweasle, you did a fine job of sidestepping the point of my response. First, whether it started as a party or as a group of Yale grad students portraying Agincourt, it still has rules and these rules are either held to or broken. Second, It is a issue to me, otherwise I would not have bothered with a response. It is also a issue with many others, that was the point of my original response. Fringe (non European) personas getting crap from people in the SCA as to the choice of their persona. So there for it is not a personal issue in the way you mean it. Also since I didn’t pick you individually from anyone else it was not “personal" in any other other way. This is:
You have drawn an imaginary line in the sand. Imaginary to you. Deciding that you are better than those who in your view are outside the rules because they have a different line in the sand is missing the point I posed, completely. In the future try to have a rebuttal that addresses the point made verses saying well….I right and your wrong! And if you don’t agree… well I’m not talking to you anymore! By a response like that, you are correct in one way: a further discussion is pointless.

Not sidestepping, m'lord. Refusing to engage - which is different. I've spoken my peace, and more than that would be pointless. This summarizes my position more eloquently than I would.

The Japanese Thing: A Reasoned Response
Copyright 2007 Lisa A. Joseph, except *copyright 2005 Ron Broberg.
http://www.wodefordhall.com/japanesething.htm

-Spearweasel

[Andrew Young]

Cant we all just get along.


3/4 of this thread needs to go to the OT section....


.

[shaohu]

I wanna see the Qin Warrior kit done. Not saying if it should be on the sca field. But it would definitley be cool to see... DO IT!